SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VII

[Raj Ahten]

Raj, what's the purpose of the Indhopali support for the counter-coup? If it's supposedly preventing Klavostan from being drawn into MESS orbit, how does Indhopal know of any Tian Xia links to the new Klavostani government?

The reason of the coup is to secure Indhopal's borders. Klavostan has always been a fruit loop nation. When they were in the FTO that gave Indhopal some assurances that the mercs wouldn't attack Indhopal directly. Even so Indhopalese commandos had to combat Klavostani mercenaries involved in stealing biological weapons during that time. The coup will secure the southern border and get guarantees from the new government that the mercenaries will never attack Indhopalese interests. It also shows the worlds intelligence agencies that Indhopal's ISIA is back in the saddle and willing to use every method at its disposal to safeguard Indhopal's interests, just like in the bad old days before the FTO.

Secondarily some analysts believe Klavostan is going into Tian Xia's orbit. The nationalization of the mercenaries awhile back seemed to further Tian Xia's interests and no real reason was ever given for the action by the Sultan. A foreign puppet on Indhopal's border would be completely unaceptabe and make my defense situation untenable.

Basically Indhopal is abandoning its cooperative approach to foreign policy embodied it attempted to employ while in the FTO as well as any grand dreams for Frequesue that I might have had. Now Indhopal is concentrating solely on securing its immediate region and wants to show everyone that they are willing to use force to do so.

edit: too many basically's!

[RogueIce]

Secondarily some analysts believe Klavostan is going into Tian Xia's orbit. The nationalization of the mercenaries awhile back seemed to further Tian Xia's interests and no real reason was ever given for the action by the Sultan. A foreign puppet on Indhopal's border would be completely unaceptabe and make my defense situation untenable.

Why? That happened before the whole Baerne/Costa situation. So how would they know it wasn't, let's say, the Sultan's paranoid reaction to San Dorado going CATO? Why would it have benefited Tian Xia? Saying you can somehow read into that, which occured before Tian Xia made any indication they gave a damn about Costas or Baerne sounds a little too close to using the OOC facts in-universe.

[Steve]

Costa is on the opposite side of the continent from Klavostan, the Sultan would realistically have little concern over whether it might fall into CATO orbit compared to, say, Miratia or Indhopal.

At least, that's the judgement that Indhopali intelligence analysts could make, leading them to the question of why the Sultan cared and the disturbing potential that he was going with MESS.

[Raj Ahten]

Secondarily some analysts believe Klavostan is going into Tian Xia's orbit. The nationalization of the mercenaries awhile back seemed to further Tian Xia's interests and no real reason was ever given for the action by the Sultan. A foreign puppet on Indhopal's border would be completely unaceptabe and make my defense situation untenable.

Why? That happened before the whole Baerne/Costa situation. So how would they know it wasn't, let's say, the Sultan's paranoid reaction to San Dorado going CATO? Why would it have benefited Tian Xia? Saying you can somehow read into that, which occured before Tian Xia made any indication they gave a damn about Costas or Baerne sounds a little too close to using the OOC facts in-universe.

Because my intelligence agency sees the Tian Xia and the MESS making inroads all over the continent and is paranoid everything is a MESS or CATO plot at this point. Tian Xia also got quite interested in Costa shortly thereafter. I also don't recall a Klavostani mercenary force ever canceling a contract before (I might be wrong on that, but certainly they never had a contract canceled via nationalization.) The Sultan is taking a very personal level of involvement in what is going on in Costa, an involvement he has never shown in any previous operations by the country's mercenaries that also seems to benefit Tian Xia.

Also for the Sultan to be of any real use to Tian Xia he has to change policy and that is something that might be picked up on. (Such as changing advisers from those that favor pan Frequesuan policies perhaps. This is a bit more iffy really.)

Steve also makes a very good point on the issue as well.

[RogueIce]

Costa is on the opposite side of the continent from Klavostan, the Sultan would realistically have little concern over whether it might fall into CATO orbit compared to, say, Miratia or Indhopal.

Not that he cares about Costa. But those mercs happen to be on the continent, and if he wanted more troops to present a beefier position because of all this perceived "outside power" stuff (the oft-remarked upon Tian Xian CFR expansion, CATO getting members on the continent), so they're closest to serve as his reinforcements, if you will.

Because my intelligence agency sees the Tian Xia and the MESS making inroads all over the continent and is paranoid everything is a MESS or CATO plot at this point. Tian Xia also got quite interested in Costa shortly thereafter. I also don't recall a Klavostani mercenary force ever canceling a contract before (I might be wrong on that, but certainly they never had a contract canceled via nationalization.) The Sultan is taking a very personal level of involvement in what is going on in Costa, an involvement he has never shown in any previous operations by the country's mercenaries that also seems to benefit Tian Xia.

How so? Why would it benefit Tian Xia? The only thing Tian Xia has done is say that the factions, rebels and government, should fight it out amongst themselves, rather than have outside powers intervene. They have neither supported nor condemned either faction, merely the Baernish intervention.

So how does mercenaries leaving Costas, which happened before Tian Xia showed any interest in the area (and they aren't showing much now, really, compared to others), benefit Tian Xia? Where did that leap come in?

EDIT: Hell, if we want to invent plots now, what about Baerne paying off the Sultan to recall those mercs? Without the mercs, Sam Austin's revolution was in deep shit. Baernish intervention bailed him out. Now, instead of Sam Austin pulling it off with the help of mercs, he is indebted to the Baernish government (and thus CATO). Is that not also a possibility?

The fact your overly paranoid intelligence agency is just singling out Tian Xia here, when Baerne has shown much more of an interest in the Costas (and yet absolutely no suspicion has been thrown their way it would seem) is odd.

Also for the Sultan to be of any real use to Tian Xia he has to change policy and that is something that might be picked up on. (Such as changing advisers from those that favor pan Frequesuan policies perhaps. This is a bit more iffy really.)

Maybe he's just paranoid in general because somebody tried to blow him up. The point is, there ARE other reasons, and you somehow divining that this is all some Tian Xian plot is really, really odd. Or OOC information in-game.

[Siege]

The only thing Tian Xia has done is say that the factions, rebels and government, should fight it out amongst themselves, rather than have outside powers intervene. They have neither supported nor condemned either faction, merely the Baernish intervention.

That's where you're wrong. Tian Xia did support one faction. The office of the Huang-Di announced quite publicly that the 'official government' of the Costa de las Cinco Muertes had requested its aid, and that in return Tian Xia had dispatched a carrier to secure Costa airspace 'from foreign intrusions' or somesuch.

And even if that were a covert action -which it was not (and how could it be?)- the only thing ISIA would've needed to figure out exactly what was going on was a single spy somewhere in a position to relay that 'lighter than a feather, heavier than a mountain' schtick the Tian Jiaoan governor gave the Costa representatives. It's been established way back that Indhopal has rather formidable intel assets on the Costa (see the whole nerve gas business), and considering the already notoriously unstable Costa government was going through a particularly debilitating period it's hardly a stretch they find out.

That line, coupled with the bomb attack, subsequent odd behavior of the Sultan, recent Tian Xian expansionist drive, and the nationalization (all of which are more or less public information) would probably be more than enough to set alarm bells ringing in the ISIA headquarters. The drastic increase of MESS interest in Frequesue (carrier fleets off the coast, Canissian foreign legionnaires in Tian Jiao, the Huang-Di meeting with local heads of state trying to push his own version of the FTO) is just icing on the cake. Even if it's got nothing directly to do with the Costa/Klavostan situation, what conclusions do you think a paranoid intel agency will draw from all that?

No, I daresay Indhopal is quite justified in drawing the right conclusions. You'll also notice they're hardly enthusiastic about CATO. Rather they're friendly toward San Dorado, which is only reasonable because we're a strategic partner that's never given Indhopal cause to doubt our allegiances.

[DarthShady]

Baerne, The UCSR will be more than happy to help fix up your carrier.

[Coyote]

But remember the timeline:

Westchester becomes Tian Jiao, joins with Tian Xia.

Years go by. Very little SNC/CATO vs MESS antagonism, everyone seems peachy.

Suddenly, in very short order:
CSR joins USSR; forms CATO.
Shroomania joins CATO.
Then, in a series of secret meetings, two Frequesque nations join together and become CATO; and another Frequesque nation joins CATO (without even the courtesy of saying out loud they were abandoning FTO neutrality agreements first) and within a week invades a weaker neighbor on suspicious grounds.

THEN Canissia get permission to put a Legion Etrangere base in Tian Jiao.

There has been, from MESS perspectives, a sudden, alarming, massive and secretly arranged expansion of a power bloc, all using the long-ago Tian Jiao as an excuse for this catalyst. And now, the arrival of a Legion Etrangere base is used as an excuse, even though that took place AFTER the aforementioned sudden, secret expansions.

Even a phone call to the MESS leaders to give us a heads-up would have gone a long way to alleviate any sudden alarm, but look at it in reality-- if you were on the outside of this expansion, looking in, wouldn't any reasonable person be alarmed by this?

[Karmic Knight]

Maybe he's just paranoid in general because somebody tried to blow him up. The point is, there ARE other reasons, and you somehow divining that this is all some Tian Xian plot is really, really odd. Or OOC information in-game.

The Other Option is massive inherent fear of the MESS that permeates the game. It killed Shep twice and now its affecting Shroom and the FTO.

edit:
Shroom because he has yet to meet with RougeIce.

[Master_Baerne]

Baerne, The UCSR will be more than happy to help fix up your carrier.

Delightful. Actually, I'd prefer to do as much of it at home as possible, but if you could detach somebody with actual working experience on the things, it would surely be helpful.

[Siege]

*Snip Timeline*

I see you're conveniently letting out the bit where I left the FTO because it proved unable to do or even say anything about Tian Xia's expansion into the CFR. Then I joined CATO; Baerne followed when it decided the Huang-Di's (wait for it!) secret plans for a new FTO (under his aegis, no doubt) smelt fishy.

Baerne was then drawn into a bloody conflict on the Costa trying to protect the security of its borders, found its capital under attack in return, and then saw Tian Xia pledge its support to the attacker nation.

Ignoring for a moment the whole situation in Klavostan and the foreign legionnaires I think it's fairly obvious here that the catalyst for the current situation was the Tian Xian decision to embark on a military adventure in the CFR. That was the reason I left the FTO, and aligned myself with CATO. That's at the root of all of this.

So don't confuse cause and effect here. Oh, and don't give me this crap about phone calls either, because we sure didn't receive any before Tian Xia decided to send troops into the CFR.

EDIT: Note that I'm not even blaming the MESS per se; you'll notice I've maintained cordial relations with the Shinra Republic despite the naval base in the Vineyards, I even agreed to their observer status in the FTO, and I haven't raised a ruckus over the legionnaires either. However, Tian Xia's proprietary adversarial attitude really gets under my skin. The Tian Jiao situation has been a thorn in my side practically since day one and you all know it... Yet you're allowing the Huang-Di to go on his merry way antagonizing the whole goddamn continent without so much as a peep. Well excuse me, but sooner or later the behavior of your ally is going to blow up in your face.

[RogueIce]

EDIT: Note that I'm not even blaming the MESS per se; you'll notice I've maintained cordial relations with the Shinra Republic despite the naval base in the Vineyards, I even agreed to their observer status in the FTO, and I haven't raised a ruckus over the legionnaires either. However, Tian Xia's proprietary adversarial attitude really gets under my skin. The Tian Jiao situation has been a thorn in my side practically since day one and you all know it... Yet you're allowing the Huang-Di to go on his merry way antagonizing the whole goddamn continent without so much as a peep. Well excuse me, but sooner or later the behavior of your ally is going to blow up in your face.

If you want to get pissy over Tian Jiao, blame the CSR. They're the ones who caused that to happen.

Remember when the PRSF attacked Westchester? You FTO guys were going to intervene, up until the CSR parked a naval fleet in Livorno and declared the PRSF airspace off limits, effectively backing the PRSF in their attack on Westchester. When the FTO left because of that, who did Westchester go to? Their former masters Tian Xia, the only ones who, it seemed, could actually do something about it. And hence went the slide to Tian Jiao.

People seem to have forgotten this. And that is what showed the FTO to be a paper tiger when it came to Imperiums doing anything.

Now, you can try and say "but Czechmate wanted to do that all along!" Well, tough, you can't. Because that is OOC and you can't use it as an in-universe reason. Stas stuck his nose in IU and thus caused that chain of events. If Czech was going to find another way to go to Tian Xia, that's irrelevent now.

Speaking of which, that above scenario is strikingly similar to the Baerne/Costas Conflict, with CATO (aka Baerne) moving in troops as "peacekeepers" but, as anyone with a brain can see, in reality supporting one side against the other. I guess the more things change...

[Karmic Knight]

Remember when the PRSF attacked Westchester? You FTO guys were going to intervene, up until the CSR parked a naval fleet in Livorno and declared the PRSF airspace off limits, effectively backing the PRSF in their attack on Westchester. When the FTO left because of that, who did Westchester go to? Their former masters Tian Xia, the only ones who, it seemed, could actually do something about it. And hence went the slide to Tian Jiao..

Actually no, the FTO didn't back down then, they continued to bomb the PRSF, even moving to Vinish bases to do so, Westchester went to Tian Xia anyway, and then the FTO stopped helping, I think.

[Steve]

It's only been six, seven years since the "Uranium War", that's not enough time for it to be considered "a long time ago". That's within recent living memory, hell, 9/11 is more "the past" for us now. Therefore it's realistic that the Tian Jiao situation still rankles with Frequesue.

Also, as I recall, the FTO wasn't even given a full chance to respond. The CSR task force was only in Livorno; the FTO still could've gone after the actual attack into Tian Jiao. But they weren't given the chance; Tian Jiao turned immediately to Tian Xia for support.

[Pollux]

Hey,

I know this is a bit inconvenient, but could someone fill me in on the current situation in Velaria? I seem to recall hearing rumblings of carving it up ala Africa c. late 1800s right before I left.

[RogueIce]

Ok, I went back and looked. Some FTO people "asserted their neutrality" while others postured. Technically the San Dorado Navy intermixed with the Tian Xia Navy, so there you go. Even after they went back apparently you weren't that upset with them.

At any rate, the basic point stands: the CSR started the whole outside powers messing about in Frequesue. Tian Xia was just better at it. Or not, since the whole reason they took over totally was an insane Duke they left in charge.

[CmdrWilkens]

Maybe he's just paranoid in general because somebody tried to blow him up. The point is, there ARE other reasons, and you somehow divining that this is all some Tian Xian plot is really, really odd. Or OOC information in-game.

The Other Option is massive inherent fear of the MESS that permeates the game. It killed Shep twice and now its affecting Shroom and the FTO.

edit:
Shroom because he has yet to meet with RougeIce.

What is funny is that in this game Shep and the MESS were actually well on their way to detente as he and Lonestar were wrokign out broder agreements and a host of other things that basically would have ended that agreement. It was Stas who torched him in this universe so if anything I think most folks IU would be massively more afraid of CATO given that up until the OD's recent use of nukes was the only power bloc to have utilized weapons of mass destruction.

So again paranoia IU right now should probably run more towards being wary of CATO axis rather than the MESS axis. Especially since the former has been the force behind at least one coup that we know of and was the principal mover behind breaking up the F-ing Neutrality Pact.

[CmdrWilkens]

BTW, straight ripping from Wikipedia the use of templates, while useful, can lead to a mess. Compare this ugliness to this prettiness. Even then it doesn't quite do what I'd like for it to do in use, but at least the documentation looks good.

So just some information to keep in mind.

Which is why I started pulling all of the sub-templates that help make the durn thing tick. I've imported about a dozen templates almost none of which we shoudl really need but it should make the Infobox Country template work.

That said I did edit the template so that most of the links should now redirect to wikipedia pages for things like the meaning of GDP and PPP or Water.

[RogueIce]

I see you're conveniently letting out the bit where I left the FTO because it proved unable to do or even say anything about Tian Xia's expansion into the CFR.

Given the fact you invited CATO military bases into Coilerburg before that, I'm going to be highly amused at the above.

Evidently it doesn't bother you when your outside military forces move in, does it? Just Big Bad Tian Xia.

So let us remember, CATO was invited into the F-ing Continent before Tian Xia's operation against Mortimer's Claim. And before all of "the evil MESS" reaction to any of this.

[Karmic Knight]

Hey,

I know this is a bit inconvenient, but could someone fill me in on the current situation in Velaria? I seem to recall hearing rumblings of carving it up ala Africa c. late 1800s right before I left.

I'll let Steve, Coyote, or someone else elaborate, but all I know is that Valaria has A Canissian Area, a Cascadian Area, an area controlled by Siege, Neo-Astaria, a Caliphate exists, and at least one Japanistani and Zorian Zone each. Don't ask me where any of this stuff is, because I have not a clue.

[CmdrWilkens]

Hey,

I know this is a bit inconvenient, but could someone fill me in on the current situation in Velaria? I seem to recall hearing rumblings of carving it up ala Africa c. late 1800s right before I left.

I'll let Steve, Coyote, or someone else elaborate, but all I know is that Valaria has A Canissian Area, a Cascadian Area, an area controlled by Siege, Neo-Astaria, a Caliphate exists, and at least one Japanistani and Zorian Zone each. Don't ask me where any of this stuff is, because I have not a clue.

There is also an IRT spot and at least one long abandoned Wilkonian trade post (long abandoned as in Age of Sail, early Age of Steam abandoned).

[Steve]

Shinn? Shroomvez was Shep and Stas' agent, Cascadia had nothing to do with him save being ready to covertly support him with air-based logistics, not arms, and after the death of Astaria that would end.

Veleria's situation is as follows:

Cascadia's holdings are the Van Halstoff Territory, just west of al-Itani and now adjoining Japanistan's colonial holdings, and Welles Territory that includes Welles Island, in the Gulf of Carpentia between al-Itani and Tanvarika. Japanistan controls the coast of Northwestern Veleria and portions inland. Zoria holds a colonial zone centered around Port Adria at the mouth of the Dragonsnake River, though the River itself was returned to native oversight as part of the peace agreement with the Sultan of Syria that ended the East Velerian Conflict. Zoria also holds sovereignty over mining facilities in the Ironridge Mountain Range upriver from Port Adria.

Northern Veleria from al-Itani to Adabani is part of a very loose minor alliance under the Treaty of Hasiyah, spearheaded by Cascadia, that was meant to protect the countries involved from Japanistan. It's not a very stable alliance. The nation of Fredonia has ethnic troubles that are considered a potential flashpoint for civil war.

Akori is in Serenity's orbit.

Rangatara has Shinra and Cascadian interests but is primarily led around by Tonkin. A brief civil war in 2010-2011 ended but the country was destabilized again for a few years by the East Velerian Conflict between Zoria and native Islamic tribes backed by a worldwide Jihadist movement.

Hadhramara was basically Somalia and became a transshipment point for weapons and Jihadis moving toward Zoria's claimed zone - between Rangatara and Hadhramara on the East Velerian Coast - before one Davin Muballi attempted to use an mercenary force augmented by local tribes to sieze control of the country and crush the Jihadist movement. As Syrian and other Arab irregulars backing the Jihadis - who were becoming funded by the Sultan and Caliph of Syria - prepared for a counterstrike against him in 2013, his brutal decimation reprisals against Islamic villages caused the slayings of Cascadian citizens operating with the Red Crescent. Cascadia responded violently with Operation: Avenging Sword, in which RCAF and RCN strike craft unleashed a devastating two-wave aerial strike on Muballi's AD-lacking forces, utterly smashing his minor industrial capacity and his logistics network. This left his now-overextended and demoralized forces vulnerable to the Syrian-led counterattack that destroyed Muballi's forces. He escaped, however, and is currently at large. Hadhramara is undergoing some political turmoil with a Syrian-backed government attempting to unify the country peacefully but encountering resistance from animist and moon-worshippers in the south.

Zakariyah and Alyaniyah are shithole countries, one is Somalia-like and the other is somewhat like the modern Congo. They war with each other over their border, once held by Astaria as an outpost, but neither country is wealthy enough or organized enough to decisively win. They're also major centerpoints of the slave trade in South Veleria, which has been popping back up since 2011, ironically due to the destruction of Astaria.

San Marin is the only functional government in South Veleria that isn't Astarian-based. A confederation of offshore islands, they're desperate to suppress the resurgent piracy and trafficking in the region to avoid economic problems but as of yet no power has offered to help them as Astaria once tried.

Bissauru was under some nuthead "God-President" like the RL one in Equitoreal Guinea, but apparently Shinn is writing a story where former Astarian paratrooper Hugo Shroomvez overthrew him with his anti-slavery paramilitary forces once Astaria proper was destroyed in the Pathogen War (how he got the materials since nobody would've cared after the Pathogen War, I'm not sure - he might've had some stockpiles but he was orientated for a campaign in the other direction and would have no means of getting parts).

The Astarian Colony of South Veleria is the remnant state of Astaria, not counting the Shroomanian-defended Green Zones of Astaria proper that remain clean of plagues. A government in New Liberty (New Shroomburg) oversees it, with the political situation mostly uncommented upon. Arguably slavery has officially been outlawed, but it's possible that it continues illegally with nearby sources of Velerian slaves.

Finally, the former al-Akharabat is partitioned between Caravoland, a Japanistani protectorate, and Katangwaland, a client-ally of Canissia.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Shinn? Shroomvez was Shep and Stas' agent, Cascadia had nothing to do with him save being ready to covertly support him with air-based logistics, not arms, and after the death of Astaria that would end.

-snip-

Bissauru was under some nuthead "God-President" like the RL one in Equitoreal Guinea, but apparently Shinn is writing a story where former Astarian paratrooper Hugo Shroomvez overthrew him with his anti-slavery paramilitary forces once Astaria proper was destroyed in the Pathogen War (how he got the materials since nobody would've cared after the Pathogen War, I'm not sure - he might've had some stockpiles but he was orientated for a campaign in the other direction and would have no means of getting parts).

I'll correct that when I have the time. I was reading some of the earlier Shroomvez posts, saw your name and Lonestar's in them, and made a few assumptions based on those.

Also, as for where Shroomvez got the materiel for his coup, I basically seized on a seemingly throwaway post Stas made a while back about giving Shroomvez a shitload of retired ex-CSR stuff. If it seems unreasonable, again, I'll retcon it when I have the time; I got other, more important things to do tomorrow, and I need my rest.

[Ryan Thunder]

I see you're conveniently letting out the bit where I left the FTO because it proved unable to do or even say anything about Tian Xia's expansion into the CFR.

Given the fact you invited CATO military bases into Coilerburg before that, I'm going to be highly amused at the above.

Evidently it doesn't bother you when your outside military forces move in, does it? Just Big Bad Tian Xia.

So let us remember, CATO was invited into the F-ing Continent before Tian Xia's operation against Mortimer's Claim. And before all of "the evil MESS" reaction to any of this.

Wait, a country voluntarily allowing foreign troops on their soil != forcibly landing heaps of equipment in a shithole country that can't do anything about it. Do note that their neighbour across the lake (who could flatten them in an eyeblink but doesn't have the manpower to enforce any sort of order afterward) was too terrified of the same being done to them to complain about it...

The fact that Mortimer's a shithead doesn't enter into it, either.

[Karmic Knight]

Wait, a country voluntarily allowing foreign troops on their soil != forcibly landing heaps of equipment in a shithole country that can't do anything about it. Do note that their neighbour across the lake (who could flatten them in an eyeblink but doesn't have the manpower to enforce any sort of order afterward) was too terrified of the same being done to them to complain about it...

The fact that Mortimer's a shithead doesn't enter into it, either.

The Result is the same, "Foreign," using that term inaccurately, Troops on Frequesuan Soil. If anything the former is much worse to a Frequesuan Neo-Nationalist, as the Former adds a Layer of betrayal to the opinions of the folks involved.