SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Siege]

For the record, I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Dark Hellion. My armies consist of guns, tanks and the guys who use them, and I don't particularly feel like spending hours of research on finding the one siege howitzer that will surely reduce those dastardly [insert enemy here] to little gibs from afar because it has +1 to range and accuracy or whatever. When you force people who don't know jack about such things to write their OOBs they are going to make mistakes, and those will be capitalized on by those of us who do know. Now you can say that's their own fault, but I don't think the game should be won or lost by sheer virtue of who can find the best battleship gun to stick on a train, or inside a fort, or indeed on a battleship.

[Ryan Thunder]

Your points are very logical, Veg, though in the case of the amphibs they succeeded. Wilkens rolled freaking 8s and 10s on them.

With no modifiers for the fact that I actually have a navy and extensive naval defenses.

For the record, I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Dark Hellion. My armies consist of guns, tanks and the guys who use them, and I don't particularly feel like spending hours of research on finding the one siege howitzer that will surely reduce those dastardly [insert enemy here] to little gibs from afar because it has +1 to range and accuracy or whatever. When you force people who don't know jack about such things to write their OOBs they are going to make mistakes, and those will be capitalized on by those of us who do know. Now you can say that's their own fault, but I don't think the game should be won or lost by sheer virtue of who can find the best battleship gun to stick on a train, or inside a fort, or indeed on a battleship.

I actually get a kick out of organizing my ORBAT stuff (which is part of the reason it takes me so goddamn long) but seriously, I mistook some guy's advice to mean one thing and suddenly my navy can't even fucking slow Wilkins down.

Also, Steve, check your PMs...

[Coyote]

Ryan, your best bet now may be to sue for peace and see if you can maintain hold of the eastern/southern half of Panama, at the Canal, and try to negotiate a joint power agreement. Either that, or just fold your cards and walk away, and keep your fleet and army intact so you don't have to rebuild them, just add onto them, for some revanchism later.

[Ryan Thunder]

Ryan, your best bet now may be to sue for peace and see if you can maintain hold of the eastern/southern half of Panama, at the Canal, and try to negotiate a joint power agreement. Either that, or just fold your cards and walk away, and keep your fleet and army intact so you don't have to rebuild them, just add onto them, for some revanchism later.

I'm of the opinion that this is all a load of shit, and we just haven't figured out why yet. Wilkens just has it way too easy.

Then again, let's see how my counter-attack goes.

[Akhlut]

Updated my Orbat. Just need forts now, I believe.

And, hopefully, no one will invade so I can put that off for a little while.

[CmdrWilkens]

Ryan, your best bet now may be to sue for peace and see if you can maintain hold of the eastern/southern half of Panama, at the Canal, and try to negotiate a joint power agreement. Either that, or just fold your cards and walk away, and keep your fleet and army intact so you don't have to rebuild them, just add onto them, for some revanchism later.

I'm of the opinion that this is all a load of shit, and we just haven't figured out why yet. Wilkens just has it way too easy.

Then again, let's see how my counter-attack goes.

I have it "too easy" because I spent the last month negotiating non-aggression pacts with all of my potential enemies who could cause troubles after I launched my army against you. Then I moved 8 Corps to the Costa Rica/Panama border (thanks to some additional diplomacy) and was able to assemble a massive firepower advantage at the point of decision. In other words, to Seige's point, without getting in to minutia I assembled 8 Corps against 2, maybe 3...with a 4-1 Manpower advantage is it any surprise that I was able to outflank and rout forces before me?

As I said I figured if I could get to mu objectives within a week or just a bit over (and its getting close to that magic point) I'd be in a position of strength. Right now if I can take and hold Cuidad and establish a line East of the city then we will probably reach stalemate as my ability to bring up reinforcements will be matched by yours and then the calculus of relatively balanced armies takes hold.

So that is the question, can you slow my advance long enough to bring sufficient force in to the area to block my advance before I am able to secure my objectives and establish a defensive line.


Also while I'd have a hard time cutting your cables you might have a hard sell to the board members since I announced, not but half a day earlier, that I'm going to spend money out of pocket to rebuild the canal if it is damaged.

[Coyote]

Ryan, it's tough to swallow, but bear in mind what happened in Singapore in World War 2. Forces were oriented for one particular type of defense, with little thought given to potential gaps in those defenses, or in other potential types of attacks that weren't seriously considered.

This situation is not entirely comparable, but there are enough parallels to say that "these sorts of things can and do happen". You chose the wrong defense strategy. It happens. I say retreat and keep your forces intect to build up and try again later.

[Ryan Thunder]

Also while I'd have a hard time cutting your cables you might have a hard sell to the board members since I announced, not but half a day earlier, that I'm going to spend money out of pocket to rebuild the canal if it is damaged.

Oh, you little fucker...

Ryan, it's tough to swallow

You just don't get it, do you? This is an endgame situation for me.

If I sue for peace, he'll probably have me demobilize as a condition. I'll be abandoning my citizens to whatever unpopular puppet regime he establishes, and they're not going to like that. If I keep fighting he'll just push back with overwhelming force and the canal will be unassailable because my navy is worthless and I can't pipe in troops fast enough to dislodge him.

Poof, there goes my canal and the vast majority of my political influence all in one fucking game-week of warfare.

[Norade]

Yeah, that's just how it goes sometimes. He made a plan and beat your head in with it, but instead of just watching him do it and repeating the same things you should be trying to pull away and fight again another day.

[Ryan Thunder]

Yeah, that's just how it goes sometimes. He made a plan and beat your head in with it, but instead of just watching him do it and repeating the same things you should be trying to pull away and fight again another day.

You still don't get it. THERE WON'T BE ANOTHER DAY. I don't have the navy to counter his, and if he's operating the canal, nobody has any reason to help me get it back.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, then you get your neighbours to help you and you dig in for a real long fight, i.e. cede control of the area, and then come back with greater force including your neighbours. Take your pick.

[Siege]

Or his neighbours could just send a fleet right now and beat the Mexicans over the head with a vastly superior number of warships. The naval disparity between Mexico and Gran Colombia isn't that great; if one or two powers throw their lot in with the Colombians (let's say because they don't like the idea of Mexico having control over shipping through central America and the Caribbean, or simply because they feel the Mexicans are being belligerent assholes), they should be able not only to beat back the Mexican armada but also make life very difficult for Wilkens, who presumably has to maintain open lines to his Caribbean holdings himself. His warships might be top-of-the-line, but they still can't be everywhere at once, and if his colonies were threatened he'd have to choose between guarding the landing zones or making sure his colonial harbours don't get bombarded to pulp.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Quite frankly, the fight isn't quite LOST yet. You were supposedly going to sign a treaty with your neighbours, then by all means do whatever it takes to get back everything. Of course, be prepared to give absurd concessions to your neighbours in return.

[Siege]

Promise them Mexican colonies!

[Coyote]

Look at the bigger picture, Ryan. Mexico just used "anti-Communist crusading" as a fig leaf for an obvious imperial grab on a major economic and strategic waterway. You can retreat, fund guerrilla rebels, and contact socialist brothers to counter this capitalist-imperialist robber-baron land grab.

There are two major waterways in the world that have considerable impact on the global economy: Panama Canal and Suez Canal. Panama is being siezed by an imperialist anti-Communist faction, and Suez is in the hands of a technically neutral but generally pro-capitalist faction. Other Communist/Socialist nations would certainly be concerned, and maybe you can throw in with them. You have Socialist Brazil a stone's throw away, and you can play the "victim" card for international sympathy.

That's the problem with making this a game about hammers and nails. Everything becomes a situation to get pounded militarily-- there's not much thought given to politics, influencing public opinion, manipulating media, and showing the non-military means to deal with things.

Sure, it takes more work, and you have to put some imaginative thought into it. You're the weaker power, Ryan, how do weaker powers fight? They fight in small units, terrorist cells, isolated pinprick attacks, and they fight in the media and sway public opinion.

But if all you wanted was a game of "Risk", well, then, yeah, you're done. If you want to give up and walk away it's your call, but there are ways to deal with this that can help bring some flavor to the "game" and make it more of a "story" (I know I, and a few others, would like that).

So find a way to deal with it in another dimension of confrontation, or quit. But either way, please stop whining.

[Bluewolf]

Frankly Ryan, your going to have to sit back and give this a good thought. The battle is not lost at all and you still have many options. If you carry on just cussing and having a go at people over a mistake (weather it was bullshit or not). Otherwise your pretty much going to piss away your army and end up losing the canal. At that point your pretty much going to end up like you did in SDNW2: A small power that is worthless and can do little. I doubt you want that.

Also, though not a massive number given my main trading partners, Chinese vessels do use the Canal; as does her German allies If you in anyway way blow it up or heavily damage it before losing the area to Wilkens then China herself will help fund the reconstruction effort of the canal. I simply wont have you go all scorched earth (or water in this case?) on it.

Now calm down, think carefully and win your godammned war.

EDIT: Coyote, your post was exceptional with this. I totally agree. Don't just think in terms of rifles and cannons Ryan. Think in terms of politics and economics.

[Norseman]

What are Mexicos caribbean holdings anyway? I was just wondering

[Ma Deuce]

What are Mexicos caribbean holdings anyway? I was just wondering

Antigua, Guadalupe, Hispaniola, and the Virgin Islands. Why do you ask?

[MKSheppard]

Wilkens just has it way too easy.

He underestimates the power of forts. Particulary the "ease" of destroying them, or shooting away their directors. Good lord, you've shot away one director tower! Oh look; there's another, and another, and they're all linked to the guns by telephone!

And the invunerability of his ships to Submarines. His ships will have to come close to shore and cruise in racetrack formations to deal with coastal forts. Which makes them ideal fodder for subs. Which you know, wouldn't be a problem for most people; since they spent money on Destroyer screens. But Wilkens spent it all on Battleships, with no destroyers to screen them.

In the words of Das Boot:

SINK THEM ALL

[Ma Deuce]

He underestimates the power of forts. Particulary the "ease" of destroying them, or shooting away their directors. Good lord, you've shot away one director tower! Oh look; there's another, and another, and they're all linked to the guns by telephone!

If Wilkens handwaving away Ryan's forts is allowed to stand then frankly I might not bother building any coastal defences at all, because of the precedent it sets: "hey, Wilkens did it, so why can't my battleships majick away my enemy's forts at a whim?"

And the invunerability of his ships to Submarines. His ships will have to come close to shore and cruise in racetrack formations to deal with coastal forts. Which makes them ideal fodder for subs. Which you know, wouldn't be a problem for most people; since they spent money on Destroyer screens. But Wilkens spent it all on Battleships, with no destroyers to screen them.

I actually suggested he attempt to break the blockade with his sub force via PM while also citing Wilkens' lack of screens as a reason this would be viable, though I was a lot more cautious of it's success rate (though I do tend to be cautious in my predictions). But now that Wilkens has brought in his newest and bestest battleships out to bombard the forts in Panama, that makes an even more tempting target for submarines. And add to the fact that half of Ryans subs have one scoutplane each will make finding their prey and getting into a proper ambush position that much easier.

But yeah, if Ryan actually gets around to doing that instead of just whining, I will be very, very displeased if Wilkens' dearth of screens does not bite him in the ass severely, again because the precedent it sets would affect me in the future, meaning I wasted a huge chunk of starting tonnage on 130 destroyers when it turns out that hey, dreadnoughts are immune to subs by default, so I don't need any screens am i rite .

[Ryan Thunder]

Okay, guys, I owe you all an apology, I think, for being a snivelling little bitch. I was tired and frustrated. Not a good combination for me. I'm still frustrated, but not as tired.

Ma Deuce, I actually did PM a plan to Steve last night. I'm waiting for his approval of the general thrust of it, though I'm of a mind to modify it after some thinking...

Also, I mistakenly stated that my rail gauge was 1000 mm, when in fact it should be 1500 mm as recorded in my notes. Sorry about the confusion.

[CmdrWilkens]

He underestimates the power of forts. Particulary the "ease" of destroying them, or shooting away their directors. Good lord, you've shot away one director tower! Oh look; there's another, and another, and they're all linked to the guns by telephone!

If Wilkens handwaving away Ryan's forts is allowed to stand then frankly I might not bother building any coastal defences at all, because of the precedent it sets: "hey, Wilkens did it, so why can't my battleships majick away my enemy's forts at a whim?"

I didn't handwave it, I landed 20mi away under a smoke screen. I'm willing to grant the fort as largely undamaged because when the MODS SUPERVISED THE ROLLS {emphasis} they didn't know about the forts and all I knew was that he had coastal forts at the entrances which was rather vague to begin with.

So not having any details to work with I planned the landings to take place on a viable route of advance far enough away from the mouth of the canal that I would be out of range or at least difficult enough to target behind smoke. I'd really like if folks stop pretending that I somehow landed unscathed under his guns. Take a look at the map and then bitch, then remember that there were no details posted about the forts when the rolls were taken other than that they existed.

[CmdrWilkens]

So Ryan as an aside, a cable is going to go out to seek a third party to oversee a conference. There are some things I'm willing to back off on but right now the result of the fighting is basically my leverage since I'd rather not get in an extended stalemate over Panama.

[MKSheppard]

I didn't handwave it, I landed 20mi away under a smoke screen.

How sad, that any real defensive fortification worthy of the name, would have had range cards; with everything within range allready precalculated.

"Sir, we have smoke in the Islet of Bumfuck!"

"Right, that's what, Target 90G, train x degrees, elevate y degrees, load powder charge z."

[Ma Deuce]

Ma Deuce, I actually did PM a plan to Steve last night. I'm waiting for his approval of the general thrust of it, though I'm of a mind to modify it after some thinking...

Alright, though I really had no way of knowing whether you had decided to follow my advice, given your comments in this thread, and your latest post in the story thread it kind of seemed to me that you decided it wasn't worth trying given my reservations that my plan would actually result in victory.

I didn't handwave it, I landed 20mi away under a smoke screen. I'm willing to grant the fort as largely undamaged because when the MODS SUPERVISED THE ROLLS {emphasis} they didn't know about the forts and all I knew was that he had coastal forts at the entrances which was rather vague to begin with.

Okay, fair enough. In that case I'll be very sure there are clear details on all my forts drawn up before getting into any wars.

There are some things I'm willing to back off on but right now the result of the fighting is basically my leverage

And if Ryan's subs manage to scupper a good chunk of your fleet, then that would given him leverage