SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread II

[Force Lord]

FL, detecting the fleet at a distance of 2+ sectors is not going to happen from a starship-based sensor suite. However, you can still see them coming if you do something as simple as observe hypercom civilian radio traffic, because a deployment of the Grand Fleet is not going to be missed. You've probably picked up chatter from sources in Lochley's Retreat or Burleywood about the Grand Fleet's approach, the required changes to space traffic patterns to accommodate it, etc.

Very well. I'll edit my post to reflect this.

[Force Lord]

Poor Tardis. Sooner or later he's has to make a decision...

He could defect!

j/k

He's not in a good position, truly. His only real way to get Datton back would be to send a hypercom transmission to the Anglian naval station at Lochley's Retreat, inform them with as little detail as possible of the Datton's mission, and hope for the best. Otherwise he's got no control over the situation; he has no way of getting to Datton at all.

Don't count Datton off just yet, Steve.

[Steve]

Poor Tardis. Sooner or later he's has to make a decision...

He could defect!

j/k

He's not in a good position, truly. His only real way to get Datton back would be to send a hypercom transmission to the Anglian naval station at Lochley's Retreat, inform them with as little detail as possible of the Datton's mission, and hope for the best. Otherwise he's got no control over the situation; he has no way of getting to Datton at all.

Don't count Datton off just yet, Steve.

Well, that goes without saying.

Anyway, I'll be back later, I need to go decompress. Watching Invader Zim will help.... or give me ideas on the many kinds of DOOOOOOM to inflict upon you all.

[RogueIce]

OK, for those playing along at home, here's a pretty picture:



RED is where Pendleton is located (X-17)
YELLOW is where Bannerman (B) and Lochley's Retreat (LR) are located (X-18)
--NOTE: I just kind of placed them in arbitrarily, so don't take that as True Galactic Geography; the two locations are just to symbolize that they are seperate systems)
BLUE is where the Centrality 5th Fleet is located (V-19)
--The X is just kind of tossed in to show "roughly" where the fleet would be within sector; I presumed somewhere close to the hyperlane leading to Bannerman

[Dave]

Ta-Da! Photochop! (The EU flag just didn't fit.)

How's that for an opener, Force Lord?

[Force Lord]

Ta-Da! Photochop! (The EU flag just didn't fit.)

How's that for an opener, Force Lord?

I can definitely see the Centralist leadership having a morbid pleasure of seeing Iduran parlamentary antics and laughing their asses off.

[Dave]

Sure, we'll take a lease. I'll write up an IC post in a moment here, but what I'll need to know OOC is:

1) What is the value of these frigates?
2) What kind of shape are they in? (so I can write something up about the Idurans them.)
For Iduran ships, they are not cutting edge, but the parts are rock solid, well-tested and built for reliability and survivability more than anything else.
I'm under the impression that ships from a human, totalitarian state are, ah, not necessarily going to have that high on the priority list.

So, while I might be getting pre-built ships for cheap, I'm also getting something like a Ford with a 5 digit odometer, rather than a BMW. This causes internal clashes, etc.

[Force Lord]

Sure, we'll take a lease. I'll write up an IC post in a moment here, but what I'll need to know OOC is:

1) What is the value of these frigates?
2) What kind of shape are they in? (so I can write something up about the Idurans them.)
For Iduran ships, they are not cutting edge, but the parts are rock solid, well-tested and built for reliability and survivability more than anything else.
I'm under the impression that ships from a human, totalitarian state are, ah, not necessarily going to have that high on the priority list.

So, while I might be getting pre-built ships for cheap, I'm also getting something like a Ford with a 5 digit odometer, rather than a BMW. This causes internal clashes, etc.

A single Blitz-class frigate has a value of $20. Its functions are border patrol and rapid reaction. Many are being retired not because they are old, but the Navy feels that it doesn't need too many. So I'm pretty sure they are in good shape, though not shining new.

[Force Lord]

And as for the Datton, even if I get my people inside the ship I don't know if it can evade the Blockade Fleet even while cloaked. This might force Tardis to show his hand.

[Steve]

And as for the Datton, even if I get my people inside the ship I don't know if it can evade the Blockade Fleet even while cloaked. This might force Tardis to show his hand.

He'd have to wait more than two days, that'll be the transit time through the Gap. Though I'm not sure what he can do about it short of, well, provoking a major interstellar war.

[Dave]

A single Blitz-class frigate has a value of $20. Its functions are border patrol and rapid reaction. Many are being retired not because they are old, but the Navy feels that it doesn't need too many. So I'm pretty sure they are in good shape, though not shining new.

Ok, yeah, I can work with that. I was seeing some advantages to ultralights in writing, because I can write them with all kinds of mission profiles -- small missile boats, fast courier, sensor platforms, black ops, etc.

So yeah, we look forward to doing business, so long as we can defer payment until next year or something.

[Force Lord]

A single Blitz-class frigate has a value of $20. Its functions are border patrol and rapid reaction. Many are being retired not because they are old, but the Navy feels that it doesn't need too many. So I'm pretty sure they are in good shape, though not shining new.

Ok, yeah, I can work with that. I was seeing some advantages to ultralights in writing, because I can write them with all kinds of mission profiles -- small missile boats, fast courier, sensor platforms, black ops, etc.

So yeah, we look forward to doing business, so long as we can defer payment until next year or something.

We'll be waiting.

[Force Lord]

I'll take a break for the day, since activity seems to have slowed down.

[Steve]

You do realize your ship will be detected immediately upon lift-off, launch or no launch, because it's displacing air and causing heat friction?

Actually, scratch that, it might have been tracked straight to its landing site.

Edit: At Jester's request, a clarification. Cloaked ships would be detected in atmosphere unless they're going really slow, because otherwise they're displacing.... I already explained it.

[Steve]

Ball's in your court, FL. I resisted the impulse to just presume your ship was gonna run like hell and leave a large atmospheric drag heat plume to find, being sporting and all. Even if some people are entertained by the thought of seeing how far you'll take this over 9 dissidents who ran away.

[Darkevilme]

holy crap, 9 dissidents...he mobilized a grand armada, a stealthed destroyer, thousands of navy men and women and dozens of special forces personnel over nine dudes who didn't want any truck with being a productive part of his society anyway?

[Beowulf]

You do realize your ship will be detected immediately upon lift-off, launch or no launch, because it's displacing air and causing heat friction?

Actually, scratch that, it might have been tracked straight to its landing site.

Edit: At Jester's request, a clarification. Cloaked ships would be detected in atmosphere unless they're going really slow, because otherwise they're displacing.... I already explained it.

Not just displacing air and causing friction, but displacing air and causing turbulence in the atmosphere. A small ship would cause less turbulence, and therefore be significantly harder to spot than a star destroyer massing some hundreds of thousands of tons. Advanced sensors would be able to pick up the turbulence, especially the very large scale turbulence that a multi-hundred thousand ton destroyer would cause.

[Steve]

holy crap, 9 dissidents...he mobilized a grand armada, a stealthed destroyer, thousands of navy men and women and dozens of special forces personnel over nine dudes who didn't want any truck with being a productive part of his society anyway?

To be fair, his government might not know they were dissidents and assume they were loyal citizens kidnapped.

[Simon_Jester]

Note that there are ways to conceal the turbulence caused by one's wake, such as by hiding in places that are already turbulent, like storms... or the area where a bunch of nuclear weapons and starship bombardment fire has been going on.

Not that this really matters, since Commodore Forg has already violated the Fifth Law of Stealth: see Things Not To Do So Your Cloaked Ship Doesn't Get Spotted.

[PeZook]

On the missiles: You know, I did clarify whyt the Pendletonians decided to engage that destroyer and why they weren't shooting at orbiting ships?

It's not that the missiles are incapable of reaching orbit ; I honestly thought it was irrelevant. The 'Tonians simply know that any launcher which fires is a launcher lost, and they want to maximize the damage inflicted, so they will fire at softer targets like landing craft or ships trying to maneuver in atmosphere. So they won't engage a Battlestar, because they'd need to spam missiles at it, while they could do the same against landing boats filled to the brim with Marines.

[Agent Sorchus]

I have a big problem with the set of presumptions about stealth and heat that is being thrown around in here because it is getting to damn technical. Did we not agree to keep things from developing into a he says tech works that way she says tech works this way at the very beginning. For example, how does the Lesbian orgy power source get detected? While we should all agree that Stealth needs to have limits, but I can find flaws with some reasoning pertaining to atmospheric tracking, ie we don't necessarily care about turbulence thanks to energy fields and similar that can counter the turbulence.

We have to admit to a little bit of magic in our sci-fi here, and I know that some people don't want it but we got to keep in mind that pages of arguments over tech are unreadable and boring.

Specifically Simon of your five things not to do while cloaked, I disagree with 3 and 4. 3 because certain warfare makes this stupid to hold as a maxim, ie targeting civillian shipping. I disagree with 4 because it is backwards, stealth is more possible in air than it is in space, just as it is with water compared to air. With some of our exotic tech like shields, we might not even generate fireballs, ie a frictionless field limiting interaction with the atmosphere. That hasn't been ruled out, but you make it into a rule with out really thinking about the potential our tech is working at.

And Steve, I am surprised that the flag wouldn't delegate the task to a lighter vessel so that they can get on with the invasion. As it is they are a moose chasing a gnat despite having other more important things to trample.

[Shroom Man 777]

If you use anti-turbulence energy fields, then it would make sense that the other guys might detect your anti-turbulence energy fields, mang.

#3, well, stealth ships can attack civilian ships and crappy military ships with impunity, like U-boats. But against competent enemies, I think they'd detect you when you start pew-pewing lasers even if your cloaked. One way to go around this is to use stealthy missiles? I dunno.

#4 makes sense. If you pump power into your engines, space or atmo, the enemy's still totally gonna detect the exhaust.

[Agent Sorchus]

If you use anti-turbulence energy fields, then it would make sense that the other guys might detect your anti-turbulence energy fields, mang.

#3, well, stealth ships can attack civilian ships and crappy military ships with impunity, like U-boats. But against competent enemies, I think they'd detect you when you start pew-pewing lasers even if your cloaked. One way to go around this is to use stealthy missiles? I dunno.

#4 makes sense. If you pump power into your engines, space or atmo, the enemy's still totally gonna detect the exhaust.

Number 4 is still backwards though, stealth in space is harder than it would be in atmosphere, not the other way around. And what if you're ship uses grav drives? There isn't exhaust to detect, just the otherwise minuscule difference in the ambient grav feild. How else would a Destroyer of such mass fly in atmosphere? (A similar sized craft would carry 40k troops if it were a transport.)

An attack on a civilian ship that maintains stealth throughout the operation? Well I got a couple of ideas for that, but don't want to reveal them yet.

And Shroom, what about an Ork generated Stealth field, otherwise known as peakaboo? Would there be a field to detect? We have to be flexible about these things, people don't want to have to put up that much extra work.

And yes Force Lord's ship transmitted, and that is a big nono in the stealth business.

[Shroom Man 777]

Number 4 is still backwards though, stealth in space is harder than it would be in atmosphere, not the other way around. And what if you're ship uses grav drives? There isn't exhaust to detect, just the otherwise minuscule difference in the ambient grav feild. How else would a Destroyer of such mass fly in atmosphere? (A similar sized craft would carry 40k troops if it were a transport.)

A miniscule difference in the ambient grav field, miniscule enough that the grav drive can suspend a multi-megaton weighing vessel in the air?

Even if your ship is not pooping out rocket fumes or ion trails or something, I think it would still poop out energy from its drives, even if its a grav drive, and that energy would still be detectable.

Maybe stealth in space would be harder. Yes. A stealthed ship can conceal its crap inside an atmosphere, with the planet's gravity field, weather, atmosphere, etc. partially covering its emissions. In space, there is nothing to hide a ship's emissions, so it will be very visible. Stealth in atmo is still not invisible though. If the Anglians were, like, far away, the stealthed ship could easily hide in the planet's atmosphere. But the Anglians are right on top of them, in orbit. AND the Pendletonians, who the cloaked ship is right under, would be far closer to it than the Anglians.

Also, moving in atmosphere produces frictions.

An attack on a civilian ship that maintains stealth throughout the operation? Well I got a couple of ideas for that, but don't want to reveal them yet.

You evil mangs.

And Shroom, what about an Ork generated Stealth field, otherwise known as peakaboo? Would there be a field to detect? We have to be flexible about these things, people don't want to have to put up that much extra work.

How Orky are these Orks? Are these Orks the kind that go faster when painting things red? 'Cause if that's the case, I dunno if Steve is willing to give the Orks killa stealth just because all the Orks in the spaceship are covering their eyes and thinking that if they can't see the incoming Anglian ship, then the Anglian ship won't see them either.

And yes Force Lord's ship transmitted, and that is a big nono in the stealth business.

Very poo poo!

[Dave]

How Orky are these Orks? Are these Orks the kind that go faster when painting things red? 'Cause if that's the case, I dunno if Steve is willing to give the Orks killa stealth just because all the Orks in the spaceship are covering their eyes and thinking that if they can't see the incoming Anglian ship, then the Anglian ship won't see them either.

Yes, it goes faster when you paint it red. That's the way they show up in the wiki, and that's the way I wrote them in my first story post.

They're a lot of fun. I should write more with against them...

And yes Force Lord's ship transmitted, and that is a big nono in the stealth business.

Very poo poo!

This is what the backup "go-fast-juice" is for...