STGOD 2K8 mk. II OOC

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-20 08:51pm

Moloch

No state more conclusively represents the Old Empire than Moloch. On one hand lie the glittering heights- mighty hives, gorgeous museums, sumptuous architecture, and daring, beautiful nobles. On the other lies the backbone on which it is all built- 88% of the Molochi populace live as peasants, divided from the upper classes by a strict system of aristocracy which can only be overcome by military service or vast wealth, living in comparative poverty, daily shown glittering reminders of the heights they will never reach. Moloch has the culture to support an educated class, the industry to require an industrial class, and a fractured, decentralized political system noted for it's byzantine politics and grey eminences. Essentially, it is the perfect hotbed for radical Syndicalism. However, the Molochi government's control of it's populace is tight. The secret police are dangerous and prevalent, and know of the importance Syndicalism had in the anti-Imperial revolutions in Malacaster, Nashtar, the Humanist Union, and Nordkaldia. They have quashed Syndicalist organizations, aided by a general feeling that Syndicalism is something which happens "out in the Rim." Syndicalist groups in Moloch lack central direction, but can be found at many levels of society- especially the bottom.

The Voice of Freedom: There is no unifying voice of anti-government dissidence, no centralized union or political party, no real contact between the masses who dislike the aristocratic rule of Moloch. Except for one. No one knows where "The Voice of Freedom" is published. Despite a thousand successful stings, the elimination of multiple distribution servers and hardcopy printers, the police have yet to end it's publication and distribution. The "Voice of Freedom," though generically anti-aristocrat, is specifically a Syndicalist publication, and some in the secret police believe it is directed from Kaldigrad.
-10 points

Levelers: A "Leveler" is the catch-all term used for the variety of peasant groups dedicated to the eradication of the nobility and the establishment of an equitable society. Some are Republicans, some are Syndicalists, some are Anarchists. They are often disparate, as anti-government trade unions and political groups are quite illegal. Most aren't even members of groups- most are simply individuals who hold a vague sense of discontent with the government's system.
-20 points

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2008-06-20 09:45pm

Thirdfain, the information you requested is in your PM box.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-06-21 12:44am

Dude, the molochi have been a loyal imperial member for around 10,000 years, and in that 10,000 years they became one of the richest groups in the galactic south. They are stable to the point of stagnation, syndicalism isn't gonna take hold.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-21 12:47am

Don't be silly. NO BODY is completely stable forever, the Empire has fallen, and everyone is scared. You can't play a staunch Imperial remnant faction and not have to face the problems the Empire faced.

-edit- and you can't have an aristocracy without having peasants or liberals who want it gone.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-06-21 01:55am

They aren't staunch imperials, they are territorials, they are proud of being part of the empire, but they are far more proud of what their territory did for the Empire. They are partiotic and factionalistic, the collapse of the Empire is an opportunity for their rise, or if the Empire arises from the ashes, they will be there to help it back to its feet. It's not an either/or situation, just an either as both are opportunities for increased galactic presence and importance.

The peasants that you are saying are oppressed live in those hive structures. Sure they live in the lower levels, which means they only have every basic commodity provided. The Molochi have had 10,000 years to invest in self-substance, the lower class are in no threat of going without the basic needs of a populace. They will be fed, clothed, educated and offered the total information that a self-sustaining interplanetary datanet offers. They have access to upward mobility through numerous paths, all of which require a great deal of work, but the rewards are generous. One can become a doctor, and if one is very good, become the personal doctor to a Duke or Baron, thus gaining noble title. Or one could simply be a favorite gardener for a lord and get a title. The military also functions as powerful ambassadors. They have a great deal of power over the civilian aristocracy, and yet generally maintain strong peasant roots, feeling at home living in the lower hives, interacting with other peasants everyday, listening to their concerns, and voicing them to members of the Deathpact, who can quite literally extinguish an entire family for being oppressive, and such power means that a scolding for over-opulence will be heeded carefully. The wealthy are the ones who feel the pinch the most, because they are losing money everyday. At the same time, they are the powerful decision makers, which is why they are having a summit. They need to find allies, trading partners, and start to rebuild their trade empires. Syndicalism is anathema to everything that has given the Molochi peasants their past prosperity. They aren't likely to switch for decades or more. The society is simply used to massive timescales. The empire has had hiccups in the past, and came back, after decades or centuries, so at least some of the populace believes this. Sure military high command and the nobles know better, but they are going to make power plays, and patriotism is high amongst the peasants. The idea of being the head faction of a new Empire is far more appealing than some ephemeral promise of equal rights, because stratification has kept them well fed, and kept their children safe for millennium.

Anyway, the ability to simply spend points to undermine opponents would be mechanistically unfair. I have 100 points of improved intelligence, what stopped me from spending some chunk of my points to undermine your governance? Such a path gets us no where. Some factions have to deal with internal rebellion. I have to deal with the fact that many of my faction are arrogant, factionalistic assholes. I am going to piss off people who would otherwise be my allies because of my high and mighty bullshit. Internal dissent just doesn't have a place to go. The Empire stamped out those possibilities 5000 years ago. In a few hundred years to a thousand, had the Empire survived, Moloch would have been a part of it. 10,000 years of existence makes for slow changes, even a few decades after collapse aren't enough. Look at how long czarist Russia could be a shithole, compare that to the time it existed, and then extrapolate from there.

On the other foot, the Molochi just don't think of you as a real military threat, even though you have the firepower, manpower, and political will to be. They see you as a fad, some equality movement that will fall apart as corruption hits the higher ranks, based upon the trust of the people. You will be able to build up military unmolested, pass around my territory without challenge, and generally do whatever you want, for however long you want without ever getting more than bad jokes and gentle scoldings for your lack of faith. You have the total protection of the arrogance of the Molochi. You are considered a second tier threat at worst, and you know it. Hell, the Molochi are likely to help you out for money or trade routes. We aren't going to be able to politically influence you, any more than you can us, and you can plan and plot without concern. Moloch and Kaldigrad repressent opposite ends of the spectrum, but a spectrum that has had so much more time, and so much more tech to widen.

You can have publications and stuff. They aren't even going to get stamped out. A full datanet means that freedom of speech is pretty much impossible not to guarantee. But you won't be able to use it to spread false information, because the info is already out. You can call the aristocrats spoiled brats. The Deathpact does it every day. You can call the Deathpact fascistic, the Aristocrats do it everyday. And everyday they get together, drink, bad-mouth each other, fuck each other, and generally get on with life. The peasants aren't going to rise up, because their brother, or cousin, or best friend, or high school girlfriend, etc. joined the military or became a minor noble, and will be their to reassure them or just plain bribe them not to, and everyone will know, and who will care? It's not that internal dissent is impossible, it's that it is so easily possible as to be a non-issue. Everyone figured out so long ago that people don't always agree, and they just decided to let the natural things happen. Those that had the right investments, or the right skills got rich. This wealth bought them the ability to generate more wealth. This happened long after self-sustenance. The wealth just kinda sits. Just owning a hive spire represents a massive amount of wealth. But a 60km tall building is worthless without people to live and work in it. The Aristocracy needs the peasants to maintain their investments, and this keeps the populace working and housed in the same opulent investments.

The first to break are going to be the Aristocrats, who will eventually be forced to live in similar standards to the peasants, without the necessity of work and with the benefit of owning the structure. While a far cry from the excessive wealth of Imperial days, it's not a bad deal. Boredom will kill Moloch far before any other internal problems. The boredom and stagnation of a society that can provide everything but challenge and meaning.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-21 02:16am

-edit- Doublepost. Please remove.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-21 02:17am

Wow, erm, I wasn't expecting an essay. I skimmed it, and so far as I can tell, you REALLY want a nice, clean society where everyone more or less gets along, despite a socially enforced class divide which puts 88% (your number) of the population in the wrong side of the reigns of power, with no real control of their destinies, in a universe where the power structure represented by the aristocracy has totally failed and collapsed, very publically on Terra and in a number of other places as well. You want them to be free of doubt, loyal to the existing order, and completely content.

Well, that's silly, but it's your nation.

You want them have total access to information, but not build up doubts in their mind as to their single, largely hereditary ruling class, or even notice that Terra is dead and the Empire has completely collapsed.

Well, that's a little farfetched, but it's call.

You want them to be totally loyal- well, that's fine. Never mind that loyalty to Moloch does not at all preclude Syndicalist sympathy; I've stated time and again that many Syndicalists are NOT Internationalists (the specific term for Syndicalists who want to dissolve borders and make the Syndicalist Internationale the only Human state,) but rather run a gamut of loyalties; including Syndicalist groups in a number of nations who are firmly loyal to the homeworld. Opposition to a government does not mean opposition to a nation, and your government is self-described as a web of shifting alliances, political groups, and ministries with secret leaders. I mean, that seems like just the sort of government a well-educated, organized populace would be leary about, but it's your nation and your call.

As for it being unfair to spend points on placing Syndicalists in other states, well, I've had them in almost every Imperial state or former human territory in the game since the first iteration; you never complained once until now. Moreover, I am running this by you for a reason- because you have a choice in the matter. It is your nation, and I'm consulting you like every other player. Oddly, they've all accepted, and the one who has wound up on the wrong end of it has not only survived, but seems to be winning.

So, I guess you have a choice- you can have a society which is pretty much entirely inconsistant with human history; a bunch of vanilla idiots who can't even see that the Empire is dead, who can't busy themselves to worry about the state and organization of their unaccountable, largely hereditary government, and who have access to almost all of human learning but can't make any strong opinions about it. You can chose that.

It could just be nice if you didn't.

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-06-21 04:42am

I'm going to agree with Thirdfain here. Just because the populace of Moloch is by and large content and loyal, doesn't mean that there won't be at least a few groups who want to do away with the status quo. I think you're taking the in game example that we've seen so far(privateers blowing ships out of the ether, and bombing factories planet side) and assuming that whatever dissident group you get will be similar.

Take a look at Third's suggestions.

The Voice of Freedom: Some syndicalist newsletter (apparently distributed illegally...though that would probably work better as a pirate broadcast), people who are found to be regular readers are probably generally just dismissed with a roll of the eyes.

Levelers: More of a minority political ideology than an organized group.

Both would require Third to RP extensively the efforts of the Syndicalist Union to build these groups up, and by that same token, you can bring your enhanced intelligence abilities to bear against these groups should they become a nuisance. Just think of this as Thirdfain having exotic improved intel. (like the regular ability, but with more flavor text)

Darkevilme · Post by **Darkevilme** » 2008-06-21 06:55am

RAJ attention i just retconned the bit about as we speak in my latest post. as i just remembered after 48 hours the battle would of been long over.

As for the Syndicalist business, come on everyone is getting them dont want to be left out do ya hellion? personally i'm expecting thirdfain to start pamphleting the chamarans as soon as he can find someone to translate the manifesto into kittyish.

Raj Ahten · Post by **Raj Ahten** » 2008-06-21 06:57am

I am not sure I like the idea of someone being able to spend points to get automatic fifth columnists in someone else’s nation with no hitches. Dark Hellion's position of having little to no dissent may be unrealistic, but why would the disenfranchised turn to a foreign movement like Syndicalism? If they did, they might be very likely to fracture and do completely their own thing not giving two shits about the greater movement. Also it should be noted that all opresive states don't neccesarily have dissent. In China throughout history thee government didn't really have any problems as long as everything was going ok and peoples needs were being met. If not, the current government may have lost the mandate of heaven and a new one might be needed. All this would mean is a new dynasty wuld be set up. The cultural and governmental institutions often remained almost exatly the same. (Well, Mao did eventually take over

But the conditions aren't the same here. No period of Warlordism in Dark Hellion's state for instance.)

Then it should also be considered that Dark Hellion has 100 points spent on counter Intel. Do these points get him anything in the face of foreign infiltration? In such a case we should at least compare intel/counterintel abilities to gauge the effectiveness of fifth columnists. Thirdfain has only spent 30 to infiltrate, while Dark Hellion has 100 on defense.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2008-06-21 08:59am

I agree with Thirdfain. Infact, personally I wouldn't even bother assigning point values unless you're intending to try and take control of the military. It's just good TGODing.

Darkevilme · Post by **Darkevilme** » 2008-06-21 09:38am

Raj, just to clarify the idea of a gulwing on the back look at the avenger class fast cruiser.

As i remember on the subject of Syndicalists what happened was Thirdfain asked whether i wanted my own batch of merry rebels, i didnt reply due to uncertainty, then he went ahead and posted them anyway and reading them was so awesome i didnt want him to stop. Even if he did paint me as evil incarnate with every post from the rebels perspective it was an awesome kind of evil.

Addition: Crossroads where are you..?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2008-06-21 11:20am

You guys talking about Thirdfain's 5th Columns can quit yer bitchin'. His chunk of the Democratic Labor party in Nashtar is in on writing my goddamned Constitution, just like everyone else in the government.

You've got nothing to complain about.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-21 11:40am

Heck, that was my entire nation idea- I'm not playing the nations of Nordkaldia, Caliphon, and Esperance- I'm playing International Syndicalism, a political ideology with adherents everywhere. I've worked with players, avoided powergaming, and tried to write interesting stories with the idea. Think of Earth after the First World War and leaning into the Depression- the traditional "way of doing things" had been challenged, and new political movements sprung up everywhere- including Communism; which had adherents and believers everywhere. Now, it was diffuse, factionalized, and often disloyal to Moscow, but even in the US and Britain there were Communist groups.

Besides, Raj, what are you worrying about? You've got no Imperial worlds under your thumb, and have no Syndicalists as a result.

Darkevilme · Post by **Darkevilme** » 2008-06-21 11:43am

Okay official work out the battle of the backstab post. How many ships are not retreating out of Thirdfain's armada and how many Syndicalist and KU have been destroyed so far?

This Is the KU force when it arrived.

The following forces have jumped
======================
Kushawni National Guard Forces:

Task Force Tensa: 215
1x “Tekonotron Class BattleShip” – 20 +5O
2x “Benta Class BattleCruiser” - 15 +5H
4x "Support Destroyer" - 10 +5D
4x “Combat Destroyer" - 10 +5O
2x "Sensors ship" - 10 +5C3

Task Force Mensa: 215
1x “Tekonotron Class BattleShip” – 20 +5O
2x “Benta Class BattleCruiser” - 15 +5H
4x "Support Destroyer" - 10 +5D
4x “Combat Destroyer" - 10 +5O
2x "Sensors ship" - 10 +5C3

======================
The Imperial Kushawni Starforce

Task Force Teknotron: 195
3x Exelion Class Battleship - 38 +5O +2D = 45
1x Luxion Class Cruiser –30 +3O +2I = 35
1x Hexeon Class Destroyer. –20 +3D +2C3 =25
((attached Civilian conscripts running as Escorts))+125
10x Large Cargo ships – 5+1H
25x Small Cargo ships – 3+1H

================
CityClass Trade Verssels

TaskForce Eddiisons Vengance: 175
Tradeship Primus, Deucses, Trises, Quartes, Quintes
5x Tradeship – 30 +3D +2I= 35
=============
Totals:
2x “Tekonotron Class BattleShip” (50pts)
4x “Benta Class BattleCruiser” (80pts)
8x "Support Destroyer" (120pts)
8x “Combat Destroyer" (120pts)
4x "Sensors ship" (60pts)
3x Exelion Class Battleship (135pts)
1x Luxion Class Cruiser (35pts)
1x Hexeon Class Destroyer. (25pts)
5x Tradeship (175pts)
10x Large Cargo ships (60pts)
25x Small Cargo ships (100pts)

960pts total.

This is the Syndicalist armada when it arrived.

6x "Triumph" CA (300 points)
2x “Chairman” BB (90 points)
6x “Punishment” BB (150 pts)
15x "Freedom" CA (300 points)
6x "Vigilant" CS (48 points)
4x "International" ACS (60 pts)
8x "Martyrs" ACS (80 pts)
12x "Inimical" IP (32 pts)
42x "Light" FP (84 pts)
20x "Cannon" DD (120 pts)
24x "Comrade" DD (120 pts)
18x Inestimable FF (72 pts)
Total: 1456 pts

Losses i've seen written so far(ie confirmed by their owners).
Syndicalist roaring cannon class in the opening battle.
syndicalist Union Secretary Alan Wyckz, battleship disabled in the battle of the backstab.
syndicalist Merciless Punishment for Class Traitors, crippled in the battle of the backstab.
Kushwani tradeship destroyed. backstab
Syndicalist battleship Syracuse destroyed. backstab

There may be others. How many ships of the Syndicalist armada are still engaged Third?

Edit: And in addition the chamaran force has just closed to effective direct fire range.
first and second fleet.(minus a cruiser squadron)
x10 battleships (600 points total)
x15 cruisers (450 points total)
x6 support cruisers (180 total)
x20 thrall cruiser (200 total)

1430 total points

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-06-21 12:21pm

Note, I am not saying that syndicalism can't be espoused, but the populace percentage is going to be similar to those that worship the Great Sky Bear or practice Neo-Buddhism. The main thing about having a fully functional Imperial style systemnet is that it's damn near impossible for anyone, anywhere not to be able to find out damn near anything they want. The military has major concerns with just keeping it's secrets secrets because a single leak is almost never gonna get plugged, cause some archivist AI saved it, or some interested citizen saves it to his PDA. They have huge amounts invested in AIs, intelligence and security forces for this very reason.

You can put up all the syndicalist factions you want, the primary populace will view it like Americans view College Communist Clubs. The one thing I have learned from my fellow Americans is just how stupidly content people are when they are fed, clothed, housed and feel their children are safe.

As for the Terra being dead thing. The factions that couldn't deal with it killed themselves already. If you where that reliant on Imperial Terra, or that devoted, the idea that Sol is a burnt out husk, Terra a rubble field, Jovian moons are hurtling through the system like billion ton KKVs, etc. was unbearable, you already committed suicide. Everyone still around are those that where self-sustainable enough to survive without Imperial Trade, and ideologically separate enough not to need the Transhuman Empire.

Besides, I think you are misinterpreting how the Empire fell. It worked for thousands of years, and was still perfectly functional. Sure it was bureaucratic, you don't rule a few quintillion people without a bureaucracy, but it was fair, it kept those under its boots from abusing the populace and provided riches and technology beyond the wildest dreams of the territories. It collapsed because its own hubris prevented it from seeing the the Enclave was a threat. The idea that someone could not only stomp over a sector defense group but challenge and beat the Home Guard, High Guard, Sol Defense fleet, was unthinkable. And the Enclave burned, even though the Empire reacted too slow, too late, and just plain wrong. There are still Imperial Cruisers drifting around, even a few battleplates, maybe some automated facilities, perhaps an Imperial relative. That's all it could take. A battleplate with the Emperor's former cousin saying "the empire is reborn" and hundreds of Territories are going to join the bandwagon, because this time they are going to be full-members of the Transhuman Empire.

The thing is, the Empire isn't coming back, not unless a Territory can actually get the ball rolling, but a civilian who can't interpret the data might not know that. So a million social experiments the Empire wouldn't permit are now going on. Syndicalism. The Nashtar's attempts at cooperative living. The Kushawni's rule by AI. Xeno's who where oppressed are now out. But you don't think there is that inkling in the back of their mind that one surviving Battleplate may come by and nova their sun for heresy?

The conflict between those societies that are now changing, evolving, that want such things, and those that want, hell, need stagnation is easily enough.

Saying that an STGOD faction isn't behaving like a modern nation is a joke. We haven't had 10,000 year empires that ruled a few quintillion people, who could nova a sun at a few lightseconds, or provide you an archive of nearly every movie ever made beamed at high speed from Terra. The Empire could literally just coat an Earth size planet with Imperial Army troops, because it has that many men under arms. We haven't interacted with aliens, seen successful FTL flight, etc.

And it's not that there isn't internal dissent, its the opposite, dissent is omnipresent, but the general solution is as simple as having some MP call them on their PDA and say, "hey what's the problem." And when they say "I am fucking sick of Chelsey Conroyds late night parties, keeping me awake before my shift, drunks passed out in my hall." So, the MP calls Chelsey and says so. And when an MP aks keep it down, you do. But maybe the guy complaining is just a jerk, so maybe it's easier for the MP just to pay his moving costs. Who knows. But the first line is communication between the three competing portions. Because the second line is someone who shrugs off pistol rounds telling you to your face. And the third line is that guy making you. And your neighbors know you where given two chances, they really aren't going to feel sorry.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-21 12:41pm

.... Hellion, I really don't know how to respond. I don't see how being angry with someone's loud parties is at all the same as being angry that you are stuck as a hereditary peasant; can a peasant call the MP and say "Hey, my government is a monolithic, unaccountable mess of despots who do whatever they please, would you be kind enough to eliminate the nobility and create a classless society?"

As for the Empire, it was established in fluff many times that while it worked in the sense that it didn't collapse, it achieved this by brutally oppressing pretty much everyone and exercising an inefficient rule-by-force from the center. Now, the fist must have been much lighter on Moloch, considering how loyal it was, but some aspects would have been as bad in Moloch as anywhere- for instance, Imperial constraints on intellectualism and research.

Finally, the idea that all the Imperial loyalists killed themselves in sadness and yet no one really is concerned makes NO SENSE AT ALL. What, people are either suicidal about it or completely nonchalant?

As for an inkling that a battleplate is going to come Nova the sun? Absolutely not. It's been what, 4 years since the Empire fell? the Battleplates are all long-dead. The Empire has fallen; there have probably been a dozen warlords who proclaimed themselves the Emperor since then; none have succeeded and Terra is still firmly in the hands of the invader.

So, are you nixing a Syndicalist movement in Moloch?

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-06-21 01:03pm

Four years? Oh dear...I may have some more retconning to do if that's the case...

And I'd like to reiterate that (at least for the two movements posted) Thirdfain would have to RP and put actual effort into forging actual anti-government terrorist organizations.

Heck, I'd assume that to be the case with most of them (at least the movements that aren't already armed to the teeth). I'd even say the resistance in Alpha Cephi is going to need outside help to be anything more than an annoyance to the Doms at this point (with the Dayab incident being the biggest thing they've pulled since...ever).

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-06-21 01:25pm

Covenant actually specifically said that the Empire was highly functional. It was the whole original idea. The Empire died before its time, the stagnation had never really set in like Rome or the Soviet Union. Imperial Terra kept the humans under its control safe, from aliens or simply oppressive warlords. It was strangling, and uncaring, but it was efficient. Sure it could be brutal at times but a few billion dead for the cost of smooth running was never a question. High-handed, overreactionary, but generally fair.

And Terra is gone, gone gone. The two fleets bleed each other dry around Sol. Hell, Terra might have simply been collateral damage between two fleets wielding too much power. Millions of ships blasted at each other, and there was never an accurate casualty count because too many died too quickly. No one knows whether the Empire is truly dead, because the Enclave didn't die, and the Empire was bigger and existed for a long, long time, through thick and thin. Both might be licking their wounds in some hidden corner.

National suicide is a well established activity. The Japanese nearly did it in WWII, the shock of nuclear bombing finally shaking them out of a mindset that would have destroyed their country. You don't think that a lot of societies that had relied on the Empire for thousands of years wouldn't have done such. Why do you think societies with a trillion people have less than a thousand ships? The fall caused a clusterfuck, and the factions we are playing are those few hundred out of the millions that survived this time of total chaos. Some, by changing, others by locking themselves away within their own boarders.

You also seem to misunderstand the Nobility's place. If anything, the Molochi are a military fascism. The Military is the prime power, they make international decisions, enforce the law amongst the Nobles, and yet they are made up primarily of former peasants. Nearly anyone can join the Military, and by doing so, they are nearly guaranteed to get some amount of power, although they may end up as nothing more than the MP for their former block. The balance of power has stabilized over the immense time period the country existed under Imperial rule. You seem to imply that if enough wealth is flashed in our faces we are going to start wanting equality. But, low and behold, it has been nearly a century since Communism took hold in Russia, and yet America has never come close to a communist revolution, and we have had opulent, abusive white motherfuckers in power for 200 something years. We had the gilded era, where capitalists just plain owned the government for a few years. And yet we have never come close to a major communist revolution, in fact communism is still a dirty world in the U.S. Just pretending that living in a society where there is a large difference in wealth is going to make people want equality, but this is evidently not true, just going by real world experiences. Poor, starving redneck fucks don't want communism or socialism, why would well fed, clothed, housed, protected peasants care?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-21 02:08pm

If anything, the Molochi are a military fascism.

Ah, yes, the one type of government to be completely free of popular dissent.

But, low and behold, it has been nearly a century since Communism took hold in Russia, and yet America has never come close to a communist revolution, and we have had opulent, abusive white motherfuckers in power for 200 something years.

Excuse me, I am taking the time to read your posts. Are you taking the time to read mine? In my original proposal, I wrote NOTHING about a Syndicalist revolution, or even armed militants. America DID have a large, organized, and semipopular Communist party for a long time, as well as significant and powerful worker's unions (which is what Syndicalism is, not communism,) which engaged in widespread strikes and occasional open fighting with government and corporate troops.

You want a society without those grey areas, without dissent or discontent. Like Ohma said, nothing here is a "OMG your nation is Syndicalist now teehee I win." It's not even CLOSE. It's simply a current of resistance and social discontent, like exists in every society anywhere- an avenue for roleplaying, power projection, and intel ops.

So, are you going to write an essay again, or make a decision?

Darkevilme · Post by **Darkevilme** » 2008-06-21 02:22pm

Crude methods time. The Syndicalist forces (1500 points near enough) are in three equal parts at the battle of the backstab correct? Only onepart is still engaged with the Chamaran and Kushwani forces? that means that the poor bastards are outnumbered 5 to 1, or more specifically 2500 versus 500 near enough. Which means they'll cause 100 damage in the time it takes for them to be wiped out to the last man. so that's about 3 tradeships KIA. If these numbers are okay, bloody as they are, we'll go with them and get this battle done so we can move on to other matters.

So i'll ask, Thirdfain do you think these fair and correct numbers?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-21 02:39pm

As I figure, the battle is going to have 3 phases. Phase 1; the ambush. I don't know if Crossroads posted any losses for that.

Phase 2, the furball- before your ships arrive; and while my wings withdraw with the cruisers, my whole fleet's firepower is focused on his 800 points. Crossroads has no losses for that phase at all; they should be pretty heavy.

Phase 3: The finish- your squadrons are on station, my fast units have withdrawn, and about 200 points of Syndicalist battleships and escorts are left to be mauled to bits. You'll lose less than 100 points, most certainly.

Darkevilme · Post by **Darkevilme** » 2008-06-21 02:48pm

he's lost a single tradeship so far i think to the beginning return fire.

so stage 2 damage is. 1500/5=300 points of damage to the Kushwani versus 800/5= 160 points return damage.

Stage 3 damage is. 200/5=40 points of damage to the Kushwani versus 2000/5=400 points( two times overkill) return damage.

Total damage suffered.

Syndicalists: 360
Combined KU and kitty force: 340

Acceptable?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-06-21 02:49pm

Accepted.

-edit-
Total Syndicalist losses at the Second Battle of Teldus Orbit:

Capital Ships
6x "Merciless Punishment for Class Traitors" BBs (25 pts each)
(The Red and Black Flown High, Merciless Punishment for Class Traitors, Syracuse, Chainbreaker, Constant Struggle, Anne Katrin Vervunstok.)
(150 pts)
2x "Chairman Istvan D'Armitage" BBs (45 pts each)
(Union Secretary Alan Wykcz, Chairman Istvan D'Armitage)
(90 pts)

Escorts and Light Cruisers
1x "International Character of Class Warfare" ACS (10 pts)
(10 pts)
5x "Roaring Cannon" DDs (6 pts each)
(30 pts)
15x "Light Against Ignorance" PFGs (2 pts each)
(30 pts)
5x "Inestimable" FFs (4 pts each)
(20 pts)
6x "Comrade-Lieutenant Rikenbacher" DDs (5 pts)
(30 pts)

Total: 360

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-06-21 04:53pm

I am not understanding what you want then? Somebody bitching through a newspaper is going to have some form of political officer visiting them to attempt to find out what the problem is. Sure, some people might have unspoken problems, but they are just that, unspoken. If you want to have university syndicalist clubs, go ahead, don't even spend points. Spending points implies you want an in-game benefit, and as Raj and myself have pointed out, there are numerous societies throughout history that just aren't attracted to equal rights movements.

I've spent a lot of my faction points on Counter-espionage and Espionage, I don't think it fair you can just spend some small amount of points and get some benefit in a fight. The idea of playing an ideology is all well and good, but you can't expect to get too many special rules because of it, otherwise the precedent that it sets could easily cause the clusterfuck that was 2k7, where we had quantech bullshit everywhere, causing so much havoc.