SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VII

[PeZook]

Trust me, Rogue. I am seeing the problem: I actually thought it ridiculous and rash that Shroom went "Oh Shinra guys you will have to wait" twice. The expansion was also rash and done without proper warning, yeah. Hence why I propose this summit, which I will gladly attend myself wherever it happens.

You can assume Paul gave you a call to this effect, though I don't have time to write a post about it right now.

[Raj Ahten]

All this zero sum game bullshit where if a nation joins a different allaince than you are in and therefor must be an enemy is precisely why I'm forgoing joining one. That and all the mistrust I've managed to build up with many of the major members.

[RogueIce]

How the hell are our meetings 'secret'? We meet in presidential palaces! We hold press conferences for god's sake.

After the fact, sure. But first, CATO leaders just up and leave for some reason (Shroom doing so in the middle of a state visit) for a meeting, which nobody else knows what its about. And then they announce, "Hey, we got a new member!" afterwards. Not "So-and-so is seeking membership and we are considering it" but "So-and-so is a full-fledged member."

That's the secret bit we're talking about.

You know what's secret? World leaders flying into Tian Jiao on cargo planes wearing NCO uniforms, or showing up on meetings where heads of state are suddenly and unexpectedly confronted by your presence.

1) Security.

2) If I had announced it, what would it have looked like? That I was "commanding" them to meet, and that any truce or treaty would have been me "forcing" them to accept it. Heck, I originally wasn't even planning on people knowing about it at all, making it look like they'd resolved the conflict on their own. It wasn't until we started getting "expansionist MESS" that I eventually went along with revealing it. And then people say I did it to make them a puppet. Because I tried to resolve it diplomatically (while the rest of you were arming Brandon in what would've been a bloody little civil war, I should add).

All this zero sum game bullshit where if a nation joins a different allaince than you are in and therefor must be an enemy is precisely why I'm forgoing joining one. That and all the mistrust I've managed to build up with many of the major members.

It's not just that. Shroomania joined and, aside from Coyote's Nationialists (which he himself tried to minimize) nobody was overly worried. It was, "Oh, ok, new power on the block. Unexpected but whatever." Heck, if San Dorado had joined and that was it, there would've been the token "Uh, you broke the treaty" but that was it. Aside from that I wasn't worried and, well, that treaty wasn't worth much anyway as has been pointed out.

Now, if Baerne had waited oh, say, six months to join, that might not have been such a big deal. It's the "less than a month" thing that got us all jumpy.

Hell, before this whole Costas thing, when Heraclius was going to visit (Fin, what happened with that?) I would've told him as much, and suggested that maybe in the future he throw some redtape in the CATO joining process. Gives us all time to adjust to the new reality, and deal with the usual internal troublemakers.

I mean c'mon, how is Coyote supposed to placate his Nationalists that CATO isn't expansionist when, well, they keep expanding in such a short time frame?

[DarthShady]

The CSR UCSR wiped out over a hundred million people with biological weapon, finishing off an ancient state that the OD had been at war with for hundreds of years. You would have to be out of your mind to think I would be willing to neuter the OD further by limiting it's nuclear weapons.

Oh please, like Stas didn't do you a favor. You've got the whole crater to yourself now.

Everyone knows it was the smart thing to do, otherwise Shep would have killed us all, again. Like he did last time and tried it this time as well.

I did that because he was dismantling the thing. Which, from many people's perspectives, he did not have the right to do. Incidently, I did that on behalf of San Dorado, as they were rather upset by the whole thing.

The fact San Dorado then runs and joins CATO later, without even trying to contact Rufus Shinra over his concerns regarding Tian Xia, is doubtless viewed as a sort of betrayal on his part.

He didn't have the right? Shroomania had every right to dismantle that fucking sub and not just that, but also execute every single one of those sailors, in the interest of protecting it's citizens from a nuclear threat. That whole thing could have been considered an act of war.

[PeZook]

Uh...no, he didn't have the right to execute the sailors. Not even if Shroomania went to war over it.

[Coyote]

How the hell are our meetings 'secret'? We meet in presidential palaces! We hold press conferences for god's sake.

You know what's secret? World leaders flying into Tian Jiao on cargo planes wearing NCO uniforms, or showing up on meetings where heads of state are suddenly and unexpectedly confronted by your presence.

That's secret. Nothing we do is particularly secretive in comparison.

On this page we see Sid Hank go to Stasograd, and all the CATO leaders drop what they're doing for an immediate and sudden meeting, from out of nowhere, to bring the NFT into CATO. A very ideologically odd fit, actually, commented on in-character, as Hank sees the Communist propaganda displayed.

Darth Shady's Post:

One by one the CATO leaders and their guests arrived and were welcomed into the Palace of the Soviets. Escorted by Black Hand troops and journalists, who were wondering what exactly was going on. After the official welcome greetings and shaking of hands for the cameras, the group of Gentlemen retired to the Presidents office inside the Palace of the Soviets. Something big was about to happen, and everyone wanted to know what that would be. The journalists would have to wait along with the rest of the world for this meeting to be over. The result of the meeting would change many things in the world.

No one knew what was going on.

Siege's Post:

President’s office, Palace of Soviets, Stasograd, UCSR

President Hank sat himself down in one of the office’s comfortable leather chairs. His plane had arrived with an absolute minimum of fuss at a military airport just outside Stasograd only two hours earlier. The president felt close to bursting with a nervous energy, so much so that it required a conscious effort to appear calm and collected.

“Thank you, and thank you for having me... Comrade”, Sidney faintly smiled after Shady’s introduction. He was imminently aware of all the communist paraphernalia that decorated the office of the President of the UCSR. That’s several shades of ironic, he considered. “I’m glad to be here.” And I’d kill for some alcohol, he added in thought.

And Fingolfin's post:

Imperial Chronicles

Emperor Heraclius nearly laughed out loud. But the politicking was getting tad bit hilarious and ironical. Regardless though, there was indeed business to be done. King Paul and Duke Lelouch were late but no matter; King Paul had given his seal of approval on this.

"President Hank. I would dare say things have changed considerably over the last ... few years. From that little conversation between you and Decius and now we all sit hear on Stasograd on a momentous occasion. Here, we, of CATO, have agreed to grant you full membership in CATO, to join this small but slowly growing brotherhood of nations who strive for technological and scientific progress, greater trade and industry, and finally defence against those who seek to destroy us."

Heraclius looked around, and finally laughed and said, "What say you Sidney? Want to join the club?"

Boom, welcome to CATO, no one knew beforehand.


Next Page, Ryan Thunder does indeed make an attempt to bring up FTO neutrality:

A Short Message to the Imperial Court of Emperor Huang Di
The people of Miratia would be delighted to recieve the company of your Majesty [...]

Arrangements will be made as soon as a date and a location for the meeting can be negotiated. We suggest that the Hall of the Assembly would be an excellent location for any discussion relating to matters of international relations. [...]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Office of the Supreme Leader
Gero was livid. "Sydney Hank, you bastard. You know exactly why we did nothing about Tian Jiao, and yet you used it to excuse this--treachery!" he ranted into the phone, "You gave us your assurances in your speech, but I'll be the first to remind you that talk is cheap. If I get the slightest impression that you're allowing CATO to have undue influence over Frequesuan geopolitics, I'll cut my funding to the Warbler program and repossess the Spectre factory from Ralson. You won't be able to count on our part in the Millenium program, either. That might not seem like such a loss to you, but fuck if I'm going to let something like this roll over without consequence. Did you even think, for an instant, of all the Frequesuan technology you're essentially handing over to those 'tards on the other end of the world? Did you!?"

He's PO'd about all the meddling in Frequeque.

Then, page 33: LelOuche becomes a CATO Observer--

President Shady's office, Palace of the Soviets
Stasograd, UCSR
Unreal Time

Lelouch and Paul arrived at President Shady's office together...

After exchanging greetings with the other CATO leaders, Lelouch sat down and listened intently to Emperor Heraclius' offer for CATO observership.


Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
"...Here however, we have a different kind of offer, after much discussion, we are prepared to offer you an observership in CATO. If you agree, then you will be granted rights to our technology, participation in the CATO space program that runs concurrent with the FASTA program, a free trade agreement, and also rights to be involved in most of our projects, excepting the most secret ones. Should you wish to upgrade this status to a full membership, my colleagues and I are more than happy to upgrade it, but as of now, it will be an observership. Do you agree to this?"

After pondering the offer for a moment, Lelouch finally gave his reply: "I agree to your offer of observership in CATO, Your Highness. I will consider upgrading to full membership in the future, but that will take some time, as there are still factions in my government opposed to CATO; General Secretary Ashford and I need to figure out just how to pacify them first."

Baerne sends a secret communique to CATO:

Undisclosed Conference Hall
Sovereign Duchy of Baerne

The Baernish delegate bowed slightly, her auburn hair falling over her military-cut suit.
"Your Majesties. I'm Countess Domizia, His Grace's Minister for Foreign Affairs. It will be my pleasure to assist President Shinra in moderating today's discussions." She sat, awaiting the opening statements from both claimants to the throne of the Vineyards.

*********************************


Baernish Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Encrypted Communique
TO: CATO

Your Excellencies and Majesties,

In light of recent events, we have decided to seek allies outside Frequesque. To that end, we should very much like to apply for membership in CATO.

Sincerely,
James of Baerne

The reply from Fingolfin:

Imperial Chronicles

To: James of Baerne
From: Byzantine Foreign Ministry

Dear Sir,

We will welcome you to visit San Dorado where foreign ministers of CATO would meet to discuss the issue. Within CATO, we view the request very favourably and would assist as required.

Sincerely,
Exarch Decius of Byzantium.

Siegetank puts it in motion:

Post subject: Re: SDNWorld Redux: Story Thread the Third Posted: Thu Apr 2009

Presidential Palace, downtown San Dorado

“Gentlemen”, President Sidney Hank of the NFT began calmly. “Everyone is arrived, so let’s get down to business, shall we?” He looked around the room. Seven heads of state sat around the table. It was a historic moment. He couldn’t recall the last time San Dorado had been host to an event of this importance.

Sidney looked at Duke James. “We’re gathered here because the Sovereign Duchy of Baerne, a long-time ally and trading partner of the NFT, has applied for membership of CATO. Now, since we’re all here I take it there are no objections… So unless anyone feels a need to make a speech to mark this momentous occasion, let’s get the paperwork done, shall we?”

Bam. bam, bam. just like that. No lead-up, talks, discussions, negotiations. Some chit-chat and small talk as the heads of state arrive, but the actual business of admittance-- pow. Barely two paragraphs.

Soon after this, Paradise Island off ther Velerian Coast joins the NFT (making it de-facto CATO) and Foreign Legionairres are posted there.

Then, after all this, my right-wing whackjob press finally spins some propaganda about CATO expansion, in the same issue where they ask if Miranda Moonbeam's odd behavior, and the sudden joining of all these unlike nations into CATO is because of "orbital mind-control lasers". Please, if this were official Canissian propaganda, it's be much tighter than that!

Later, on Page 37, after getting CATO membership, the Duchy invades:

Post subject: Re: SDNWorld Redux: Story Thread the Third Posted: Mon Apr 2009

Costa de las Cinquos Muertes
Baernish Border

Were one to stand at the border between the Costa and the Sovereign Duchy, one would be witness to a remarkable sight. The 5th Armored Division of the Baernish Ducal Army was moving, streams of tanks and IFVs rolling past the border defenses that kept the Costa's problems out of the Duchy, while attack helicopters and attack jets flashed by above, the sunlight glinting from missiles and wingtips.

Now, CATO stepped in and made peace, all well and good, but if it was a CATO-sponsored or sanctioned land grab in the first place, what good does that do?

When Rufus Shinra went in disguise, it was to forge peace in the Vineyards. Where's the kudos for that?

[RogueIce]

The fact San Dorado then runs and joins CATO later, without even trying to contact Rufus Shinra over his concerns regarding Tian Xia, is doubtless viewed as a sort of betrayal on his part.

He didn't have the right? Shroomania had every right to dismantle that fucking sub and not just that, but also execute every single one of those sailors, in the interest of protecting it's citizens from a nuclear threat. That whole thing could have been considered an act of war.[/quote]
The legality of that was somewhat disputed at the time. OOC conversation starts with this post about the whole thing. Wilkens goes into some detail here, and Steve posted something or other in the game thread being opposed to it, but I don't feel like searching for it again. Now, rather than bring up that argument again (as if one isn't enough ) let's just say that, from our various perspectives, it's not as cut-and-dried as you're making it out to be.

Much the same way the current conflict between us is not so. Which is rather the point of it all. Foreign relations is not a debate in N&P. Treating it as such is a mistake, and I think we've all been a little guilty of that in here.

[Siege]

That's the secret bit we're talking about.

So you're getting your panties in a twist because we don't fully disclose the specifics of our meetings in advance? That's it?

1) Security.

Yeah, right.

2) If I had announced it, what would it have looked like? That I was "commanding" them to meet, and that any truce or treaty would have been me "forcing" them to accept it.

Like how Steve is regularly accused of 'commanding' people each time he offers to mediate in a conflict, you mean? Oh wait, that doesn't actually happen--so this strikes me as purely paranoia.

You'd have been complimented for resolving the situation if you'd done it in public. Instead you went about it all hush-hush and only went public with a final result. If anything the way you went about it increased the chances of people suspecting you of having ulterior motives. Frankly I feel it's a pretty epic cock-up of what should've been a PR masterpiece.

I mean c'mon, how is Coyote supposed to placate his Nationalists that CATO isn't expansionist when, well, they keep expanding in such a short time frame?

Speaking strictly for myself here for a moment, I'm sitting on an entirely different continent. And whatever problems Coyote has in his parliament are, at least to me, so completely insignificant compared to the very real power-mongering going on in my back yard that such issues don't even register on my problem-o-meter.

[Siege]

No one knew what was going on.

The press was there though, so even if they didn't know what the meeting was about they knew it was happening and that something important was afoot. That's hardly what I'd call 'secret'.

Soon after this, Paradise Island off ther Velerian Coast joins the NFT (making it de-facto CATO) and Foreign Legionairres are posted there.

Talks with Paradise Island -settled by Coilerburger adventurers- had been ongoing for months. In fact I first sent people over there to negotiate the island's new status shortly after the incorporation. The foreign legion also didn't arrive until multiple months had passed. The stationing was also agreed upon with the local government, but that's beside the point.

Now, CATO stepped in and made peace, all well and good, but if it was a CATO-sponsored or sanctioned land grab in the first place, what good does that do?

What if King Arik and other MESS leaders were infected with HERV are now a secretive vampire coven out to rule the world? Aren't what-ifs fun!

[Karmic Knight]

Alright, I'm planning a multi-Frequesuan peace, love, and understanding tour, and I would like to (In this Order):

1a: Have Lord Earles meet with Someone from the NFT.
1b: Have King Jeffery Meet with someone from the Duchy of Baerne
1c. Have King Brandon Meet with Someone from the ASRF or whatever the hell it is called.
2a: Have Earles meet with someone from the Raj.
2b: Have Jeffery meet with someone from Mirata
2c: Have Brandon meet with somone from Indhopal
3: Have Earles meet with some of the CFR Militia Leadership.

- Break for Regrouping and Recuperation-

edit: Objections, Affirmations, Comments?

[Master_Baerne]

Which CFR militia? There's about three dozen of them, and former-FTO nation troops, and Minoy.

And you can come visit me. Just be aware that we don't like King Jeffery very much.

[Raj Ahten]

Alright, I'm planning a multi-Frequesuan peace, love, and understanding tour, and I would like to (In this Order):

1a: Have Lord Earles meet with Someone from the NFT.
1b: Have King Jeffery Meet with someone from the Duchy of Baerne
1c. Have King Brandon Meet with Someone from the ASRF or whatever the hell it is called.
2a: Have Earles meet with someone from the Raj.
2b: Have Jeffery meet with someone from Mirata
2c: Have Brandon meet with somone from Indhopal
3: Have Earles meet with some of the CFR Militia Leadership.

- Break for Regrouping and Recuperation-

edit: Objections, Affirmations, Comments?

I'm up for a meeting with stakeholders in Frequesue to figure out what the post FTO period will be like. That's assuming of course the Klavostani situation doesn't escalate wildly.

[Coyote]

This is what has happened within, what, one to two years at most?


1: CATO action
A: MESS action


1. CSR & USSR fuse
2. Shroomania joins CATO
3. leLouche becomes a CATO Observer
4. San Dorado & Coilerburg fuse into NFT
5. NFT Joins CATO
6. Paradise Island joins NFT (& CATO de facto); foreign legion posted
A. Vineyards has coup; Canissia deploys evacuation forces; Shinra goes to negotiate in secret
7. Baerne Confed joins CATO
8. Baerne Confed invades Costa
B. MESS comes up with Observer program, Vineyards joins as Observer
C. Canissian Legion Etrangere posted at Tian Jiao

To say that CATO actions are a "result of MESS imperialism and expansionism" is a little hard to see. We see massive, insane-pace expansion...

[RogueIce]

What if King Arik and other MESS leaders were infected with HERV are now a secretive vampire coven out to rule the world? Aren't what-ifs fun!

Except this what-if is more plausible. He had meet with all those CATO leaders just days before. The intervention in Costas never came up?

Now OOC I'm willing to say that, because that's the way things happen in this game. But in-universe, Armored Division don't just roll across borders on a whim. Generally there is some pre-planning going on, which means that it was probably being planned during or even somewhat before the CATO conference. Which makes it plausible that yes, they did know it was happening and must not have many objections, or for the more conspiracy-minded even encouraged it.

That is a plausible theory for those of us on the outside looking in. CATO leaders all meet, welcome Baerne, a couple days later Baerne goes into the Costas. You're not seeing how this can be interpreted as some CATO-sanctioned event?

If you want any real chance of diplomacy, you have to look at it from our POV as well. Just saying "we're right and you're wrong" won't get us anywhere at the Cascadian Summit.

And yes, I know I've been a little guilty of that myself. That's why I'm trying to change that now. Mea culpa and all that.

[DarthShady]

The legality of that was somewhat disputed at the time. OOC conversation starts with this post about the whole thing. Wilkens goes into some detail here, and Steve posted something or other in the game thread being opposed to it, but I don't feel like searching for it again. Now, rather than bring up that argument again (as if one isn't enough ) let's just say that, from our various perspectives, it's not as cut-and-dried as you're making it out to be.

Agreed.

Much the same way the current conflict between us is not so. Which is rather the point of it all. Foreign relations is not a debate in N&P. Treating it as such is a mistake, and I think we've all been a little guilty of that in here.

Perhaps.

1c. Have King Brandon Meet with Someone from the ASRF or whatever the hell it is called.

I'm sure I can find someone in there who will meet with you.

[Siege]

*Snip Itinerary*

Sure, I'm willing to meet with these people and see if we can work out some sort of understanding.

To say that CATO actions are a "result of MESS imperialism and expansionism" is a little hard to see. We see massive, insane-pace expansion...

Leaving out actions of individual MESS member states again, I see. Whilst including the actions of CATO members from before they were CATO members no less. That's pretty selective of you.

The intervention in Costas never came up?

It didn't, actually, although it probably should've considering the civil war on the Costa had been going on for some time. Then again I think enough CATO members have acknowledged that we should've handled that differently already.

Anyway I think we can probably go back-and-forth with accusations all week, but I feel what right now would be most constructive is that we have that conference in Cascadia, leave the past the past, and make sure it doesn't happen again in the future, yeah?

[Coyote]

Well, like I said in-game, every victory has a dozen fathers, each defeat stands by itself. Since this is an in-game tension, I'll go to the summit and deal with it in character... that way we'll have a canon solution. Or a cannon one, maybe?

[Steve]

Heh, posted before I left but PeZook beat me to it and the system didn't process my post, I was basically going to say what he did.

[Steve]

Consider the report part of quiet feelers sent to various world leaders on willingness to have the summit, once it's clear that enough prominent attendees from both alliances are prepared to come it'll be officially announced.

[Karmic Knight]

Which CFR militia? There's about three dozen of them, and former-FTO nation troops, and Minoy.

Mortimer's Backers, and/or the Winter Army.

And you can come visit me. Just be aware that we don't like King Jeffery very much.

All the better for him to be the one attempting to repair continental rifts, two birds, on bullet.

[PeZook]

Shady, it's not really an insult to send a cabinet-level representative instead of a national leader. A foreign minister should know all there is to know about policies of the nation he represents, after all, and it's quite understandable that a head of state may not always be available.

[DarthShady]

Shady, it's not really an insult to send a cabinet-level representative instead of a national leader. A foreign minister should know all there is to know about policies of the nation he represents, after all, and it's quite understandable that a head of state may not always be available.

Yeah, I know. But considering the purpose of the event, I thought it would be reasonable for the nations leader to attend personally.

[Beowulf]

The only thing Tian Xia has done is say that the factions, rebels and government, should fight it out amongst themselves, rather than have outside powers intervene. They have neither supported nor condemned either faction, merely the Baernish intervention.

That's where you're wrong. Tian Xia did support one faction. The office of the Huang-Di announced quite publicly that the 'official government' of the Costa de las Cinco Muertes had requested its aid, and that in return Tian Xia had dispatched a carrier to secure Costa airspace 'from foreign intrusions' or somesuch.

And yet I failed to actually support them against their internal enemies. Kinda significant fact.

Rather they're friendly toward San Dorado, which is only reasonable because we're a strategic partner that's never given Indhopal cause to doubt our allegiances.

You know, aside from tossing aside a treaty organization in favor of joining a second, which is what the first treaty was specifically to guard against.

I see you're conveniently letting out the bit where I left the FTO because it proved unable to do or even say anything about Tian Xia's expansion into the CFR. Then I joined CATO; Baerne followed when it decided the Huang-Di's (wait for it!) secret plans for a new FTO (under his aegis, no doubt) smelt fishy.

The FTO didn't even try to do anything. Then one of the big movers in the FTO leaves, and I decide to try to capitalize on that fact to try to rebuild it.

Baerne was then drawn into a bloody conflict on the Costa trying to protect the security of its borders, found its capital under attack in return, and then saw Tian Xia pledge its support to the attacker nation.

And the Emperor being spurned, like he was, deciding to keep Baernish adventurism to a minimum is a bad thing? Baerne already controlled a buffer zone in Costa. Further escapades signal that Baerne is trying to expand, and given his recent choice to joining CATO, with CATO's tacit approval.

Ignoring for a moment the whole situation in Klavostan and the foreign legionnaires I think it's fairly obvious here that the catalyst for the current situation was the Tian Xian decision to embark on a military adventure in the CFR. That was the reason I left the FTO, and aligned myself with CATO. That's at the root of all of this.

You didn't even try to stop me! And it's not as if the FTO hadn't previously divy'd up the CFR amongst themselves. You just all grabbed the easy parts, and failed in doing the hard part. And when Tian Xia decides: hmm, let's do something hard, you shout and scream about how ineffectual the FTO is at doing it's job. It was your job to make the FTO effectual.

So don't confuse cause and effect here. Oh, and don't give me this crap about phone calls either, because we sure didn't receive any before Tian Xia decided to send troops into the CFR.

EDIT: Note that I'm not even blaming the MESS per se; you'll notice I've maintained cordial relations with the Shinra Republic despite the naval base in the Vineyards, I even agreed to their observer status in the FTO, and I haven't raised a ruckus over the legionnaires either. However, Tian Xia's proprietary adversarial attitude really gets under my skin. The Tian Jiao situation has been a thorn in my side practically since day one and you all know it... Yet you're allowing the Huang-Di to go on his merry way antagonizing the whole goddamn continent without so much as a peep. Well excuse me, but sooner or later the behavior of your ally is going to blow up in your face.

Yup, so adversarial that I let multiple military contracts to the NFT, even PMing you so that you could make sure to bid on a contract.

I see you're conveniently letting out the bit where I left the FTO because it proved unable to do or even say anything about Tian Xia's expansion into the CFR.

Given the fact you invited CATO military bases into Coilerburg before that, I'm going to be highly amused at the above.

Evidently it doesn't bother you when your outside military forces move in, does it? Just Big Bad Tian Xia.

So let us remember, CATO was invited into the F-ing Continent before Tian Xia's operation against Mortimer's Claim. And before all of "the evil MESS" reaction to any of this.

Wait, a country voluntarily allowing foreign troops on their soil != forcibly landing heaps of equipment in a shithole country that can't do anything about it. Do note that their neighbour across the lake (who could flatten them in an eyeblink but doesn't have the manpower to enforce any sort of order afterward) was too terrified of the same being done to them to complain about it...

The fact that Mortimer's a shithead doesn't enter into it, either.

Again, the whole point of the FTO was to deny foreign influence. The CATO fleet base there hardly helps the cause.

Yeah, that's not what happened. We sent fleets and troops to the area, and even after the CSR sent its fleet they remained on station. In fact I had to pressure the Vineyards into letting me send fighter-bombers to the region. But rather than thank us Westchester went out of its way to blow us off, and ran to Tian Xia instead. Even then I was going to bomb the hell out of the PRSF troops in Tian Jiao, but the PRSF chose to withdraw before I could do so.

Let's see, Westchester using the help of an already integrated foreign force, which has had training in operating with other countries, and is large enough by itself to intervene without additional help, or Westchester could hope and pray for another couple weeks while the FTO got it's ass in gear and lose more blood and treasure trying to hold off the PRSF. Meanwhile, the FTO nations fail to present a unified front, hem and haw about sending troops, or basing them. The very fact that you had to pressure the Vineyards works against actually using your help.

They seemed the least bad option at the time, but that was before they annexed Westchester wholesale. Clearly I was mistaken. In fact, I've even admitted in-game to the CSR that I badly mishandled the Uranium War. I should've told all of y'all to sod off.

Oh, so was I supposed to annex Westchester piecemeal?

You mean the pact Tian Xia outright refused to sign? The neutrality pact was worthless the minute that happened. When it became clear the MESS had no intention of making sure Tian Xia was aboard I should've never ratified that treaty. I won't make that mistake in the future.

Why the hell should I have signed that pact? And despite the fact that I didn't sign it, I still did not actively violate it until CATO was invited to have a fleet base. At that point, it was really obvious that the FTO was a paper tiger, and so why the hell should I care. And what's worse: the FTO as a whole didn't even make a peep!

I'm interested to know what interests the MESS,Tian Xia in particular is protecting by intervening in the Costa thing, except it isn't; Beowulf is simply messing with CATO and Baerne. Nobody asked him to intervene there. And what of Rogue's attempt to scare Shroom after the Warden Incident. Trying to stop him from doing something that he had every right on doing. You guys use force and political pressure when it suits you, you can't deny that.

Unlike the CFR, Costa at least pretends to have a functioning government. Protecting it from foreign influence seemed like a good idea. Especially in view of the FTO's dividing of the CFR, and the fact that Baerne had just joined a rather expansionistic (of late) alliance.

Well I, like you, am RP'ing this from my nation's perspective.

And arguing from that perspective, I feel I can say that I have more than enough reasons to really dislike Tian Xia because of its actions over the years. The Empire has done preciously little to dispel my PC's belief that they like throwing their weight around or running over little nations far too much, and the simple fact that the MESS has done nothing to reign in their behavior is rapidly souring me to the alliance as a whole.

You see, you may feel that you've done nothing as an alliance recently, but that's certainly not how we see it. When a key member of the MESS acts in a belligerent manner, and the rest of the alliance does not distance itself from that behavior, we tend to take that at best as callous disregard for our interests, and at worst as implicit approval of your allies' power-mongering.

This relates to what PeZook already mentioned: in terms of your image among CATO countries you've a whopper of a PR problem, but you seem completely oblivious to it, or at least to how it's come to be this way. It's as if the thought that the actions of one of your member states could reflect negatively on the group as a whole does not even surface--whilst simultaneously several of your own member states were laughing at the paper tiger status of the FTO. I mean, I can hardly be the only one who sees the disconnect there, right?

This all is a strange view, given that until shortly before Duke Ezekiel's removal from governorship, the Empire didn't care about F-ing, really. And then the one nation we did approach to try to improve relations, and gave a plum military contract to, is YOU! And then I did it again! And then you decided to join CATO. What country did I throw my weight around against, or run over, that wasn't done pretty damn recently? I even give frigates (WARSHIPS!) to the same nation that attacked Westchester not even a couple years prior.

---

My response to Indophali agression will be coming real soon now.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You know, when I joined the MESS during the last game, it was after a glorious fuck tonne of PM conversations. Then off I went and declared that I left OMSK.

Shortly thereafter, after another round of PM conversations, between me and Stas, Stas decides to leave OMSK.

Are some of you suggesting that every fucking bit of that should be posted up? I don't have to point out that OMSK died a very fucking quick death and there was very little indication in-game that it would die.

[Ryan Thunder]

I didn't realize that we were supposed to be roleplaying ourselves. I just picked a suitably alien-sounding name and ran with it.

Hmm... early elections...

EDIT: Actually, no. I'll just have him transmute into myself... And insist upon being called Ryan. Or something.