SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread V

[fgalkin]

Communistas, Centralistas, does Shroomarcos even know the difference?

Edit: Oh mang, CEID vs the Zigonians. Great update, Steve and Siege!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Steve]

Hey FL, why only the Kingdom of Cornelia and not the Republic? And does this list include "underground" parties (that is, parties that are illegal and/or unable to participate effectively in the politics of their nation, but they still exist)?

[Force Lord]

Hey FL, why only the Kingdom of Cornelia and not the Republic? And does this list include "underground" parties (that is, parties that are illegal and/or unable to participate effectively in the politics of their nation, but they still exist)?

The Republic of Cornelia Centralist Party didn't say yet its intention to participate.

And underground parties are included. Though maybe the Central Times should have been more discreet in including some of them in that article...

[Steve]

Well, it didn't mention names.

What is the point of "Centralism" in other countries anyway? I mean, I didn't think your country's ruling elite had a political ideology beyond "We rule everything under our flag".

[Simon_Jester]

Well, it didn't mention names.

What is the point of "Centralism" in other countries anyway? I mean, I didn't think your country's ruling elite had a political ideology beyond "We rule everything under our flag".

Quite the contrary; they're fascists. And fascism is, contrary to popular belief, a well-developed political ideology. I may not care for their answers to a lot of the big questions, and I'm quite sure you don't, but they do have a set of answers.

"Centralism" may well thus become a sort of unifying umbrella-name for "fascism" and its descendants in the hyperdrive era, one that frees the ideology from the burden of unpopularity it earned during its early decades.

[KlavoHunter]

A flavor of fascism that happens to have a patron state behind it to legitimize it, yeah.

*Increases his Influence slider on New Aden by another tick*

[Simon_Jester]

A flavor of fascism that happens to have a patron state behind it to legitimize it, yeah.

*Increases his Influence slider on New Aden by another tick*

Well, by this point it's quite possible that Centralism (the specific version of fascism consolidated by Dovin Aybeem in the 23rd century) has become the dominant stripe of fascism in human space, just as Marxism-Leninism and Maoism came to dominate socialism during the Cold War era and for much the same reasons.

It's not that there weren't other versions of the ideology out there. It's that so much of the political literature and success stories associated with the ideology come out of a few countries that whatever prevails in those countries is liable to prevail elsewhere.

[Beowulf]

The Republic of Cornelia Centralist Party didn't say yet its intention to participate.

And underground parties are included. Though maybe the Central Times should have been more discreet in including some of them in that article...

Possibly, yes. The Centralist Party of Aurore is sure to get oppressed, not only by the state, but also by Tianguo (and possibly Umeria? Simon?)

[fgalkin]

Bah, fascists. The only good fascist is a dead fascist, I say.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Simon_Jester]

Possibly, yes. The Centralist Party of Aurore is sure to get oppressed, not only by the state, but also by Tianguo (and possibly Umeria? Simon?)

That depends very heavily on details of how the situation on Aurore plays out, and on the details of the Auroran Centralists' doctrine and intended foreign policy should they take office.

Anyway, as a bit of a favor to Force Lord, I tacked on a few paragraphs of extra description on the CENINTERN wiki page, trying to get some idea of how "Centralism" as a subset of fascism might actually work. Honestly, it's helpful to look at Shroom's depictions of Byzonism and Bragulanity, which are in some ways quite similar to the kind of quasi-mystical notions of national Will and Spirit you see in some brands of fascism.

[fgalkin]

Eh, I am not sure you were correct to play Centralism up as a full-on variant of fascism, complete with Will and Spirit. The Centrality seems to value order and stability above all else, not necessarily struggle. They have also done their best to raise the standard of living in the nation, "coddling" their people to keep them happy. I imagine Centralism would focus on Order, Stability, and Organized, gradual, Progress, not an epic romantic struggle against the universe that the fascists love to talk so much about.

Centralism, while taking a lot of tips from fascists, is actually a mode of government (ala democracy) rather than a truly coherent ideology. Alternatively, it is an older, more mature form of fascism that has abandoned many of its original aspects.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Akhlut]

Where's Aurore? I'll readily admit to not reading things as closely as I should.

However, as long as the Centralists there aren't anti-dinosaur, we probably won't care about their politics. If they are anti-dinosaur, they might well see a giant increase in funding toward whatever pro-dino parties are there.

[RogueIce]

Where's Aurore? I'll readily admit to not reading things as closely as I should.

However, as long as the Centralists there aren't anti-dinosaur, we probably won't care about their politics. If they are anti-dinosaur, they might well see a giant increase in funding toward whatever pro-dino parties are there.

If somebody managed to get an old copy of Jurassic Park over to your nation, would it be hailed as an epic tale of the Great Dinosaurs struggling to gain their FREEEEEEDOM?

[Shroom Man 777]

Communistas, Centralistas, does Shroomarcos even know the difference?

Yes! And no! Now they are commu-fascists!

Bah, fascists. The only good fascist is a dead fascist, I say.

Shroomarcos agrees!

[Force Lord]

Where's Aurore? I'll readily admit to not reading things as closely as I should.

However, as long as the Centralists there aren't anti-dinosaur, we probably won't care about their politics. If they are anti-dinosaur, they might well see a giant increase in funding toward whatever pro-dino parties are there.

CENINTERN is officialy neutral when it comes to dino issues, and indeed when it comes to prejudices. Of course, a nutjob or two could sneak in...

[Akhlut]

Where's Aurore? I'll readily admit to not reading things as closely as I should.

However, as long as the Centralists there aren't anti-dinosaur, we probably won't care about their politics. If they are anti-dinosaur, they might well see a giant increase in funding toward whatever pro-dino parties are there.

If somebody managed to get an old copy of Jurassic Park over to your nation, would it be hailed as an epic tale of the Great Dinosaurs struggling to gain their FREEEEEEDOM?

Yes, it would be recognized as a great example of human produced art. The dinosaurs would also be translated too, of course.

[Simon_Jester]

Eh, I am not sure you were correct to play Centralism up as a full-on variant of fascism, complete with Will and Spirit. The Centrality seems to value order and stability above all else, not necessarily struggle. They have also done their best to raise the standard of living in the nation, "coddling" their people to keep them happy. I imagine Centralism would focus on Order, Stability, and Organized, gradual, Progress, not an epic romantic struggle against the universe that the fascists love to talk so much about.

Centralism, while taking a lot of tips from fascists, is actually a mode of government (ala democracy) rather than a truly coherent ideology. Alternatively, it is an older, more mature form of fascism that has abandoned many of its original aspects.

You're right about the Centrality itself.

Though remember that CENINTERN is not the Centrality. It's assorted parties that label themselves as "Centralist" in other countries. Many of these parties are going to be far more revolution-inclined, since they're out of power, and often organized in response to specific political crises in those countries. They're hungrier, because they have more to be hungry about.

Compare the Brezhnev-era USSR with communist parties in other nations. The Communist Party in the Soviet Union was relatively complacent, having already accomplished every goal that could possibly be served by violent revolution. The Communist Party in, say, Mozambique... not so much.

By the same token, a Centralist Party in Aurore is going to be a LOT more inclined towards radical overthrow of a state divided along class lines, because they live in a society with a self-sustaining, semi-kleptocratic oligarchy that veils itself in Umerian terminology and rhetoric to justify setting themselves up as a de facto aristocracy. They're going to be more militaristic, because they face imminent military threats (mostly orks). They're going to be a lot more revolutionary than the Centralist Party in the Centrality proper, not just that same party exported to new areas.

To be honest though, you're probably right. One reason I got carried away with the import of outright fascism was the interplay between psychic abilities and fascism: how does a fascist view the existence of espers, the domination of society by espers, and so on?

[Force Lord]

Thought of attempting a hit on Shroomarcos, but decided to just make him live in fear of assasination.

[Simon_Jester]

In light of the recurring theme of Centralist oppression we've seen over the past few days, I decided to post the first section of the next Zebes chapter early. The rest will come along in due time, but since I had this already drafted, I felt it would be... thematically appropriate.

[Force Lord]

What would be the Centrality without a bit of old-fashioned opression?

[fgalkin]

You're right about the Centrality itself.

Though remember that CENINTERN is not the Centrality. It's assorted parties that label themselves as "Centralist" in other countries. Many of these parties are going to be far more revolution-inclined, since they're out of power, and often organized in response to specific political crises in those countries. They're hungrier, because they have more to be hungry about.

Compare the Brezhnev-era USSR with communist parties in other nations. The Communist Party in the Soviet Union was relatively complacent, having already accomplished every goal that could possibly be served by violent revolution. The Communist Party in, say, Mozambique... not so much.

Yes, but the CENINTERN is, much like the ComIntern was, very much a creature of the state that spawned it. Observe the early history of the ComIntern, the Third Period, when it was REALLY dominated by the CPSU, and the birth of the Fourth International. Sure, there might be radical Centralists, but they won't be backed by the Centality

By the same token, a Centralist Party in Aurore is going to be a LOT more inclined towards radical overthrow of a state divided along class lines, because they live in a society with a self-sustaining, semi-kleptocratic oligarchy that veils itself in Umerian terminology and rhetoric to justify setting themselves up as a de facto aristocracy. They're going to be more militaristic, because they face imminent military threats (mostly orks). They're going to be a lot more revolutionary than the Centralist Party in the Centrality proper, not just that same party exported to new areas.

I would argue that as an ideology built during a time of crisis, and which values stability above all other considerations, Centralism would not be a revolutionary ideology, period, as the very idea of anarchy-causing revolution would be anathema to it. Instead, it would be supported by "concerned patriots" in the top ranks of the military, as well as prominent business leaders, people who are already established and powerful, and who are in a position to effect an orderly takeover of the government via coup, rather than a massive revolution. It's not a popular ideology per se, in that it does not need the consent of the people, but it does seek popular support because it would make the coup to acquire power and the subsequent reforms so much easier.

To be honest though, you're probably right. One reason I got carried away with the import of outright fascism was the interplay between psychic abilities and fascism: how does a fascist view the existence of espers, the domination of society by espers, and so on?

That is an interesting idea, yes, but not really compatible with Centralism as portrayed by Force Lord.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Force Lord]

Yes, but the CENINTERN is, much like the ComIntern was, very much a creature of the state that spawned it. Observe the early history of the ComIntern, the Third Period, when it was REALLY dominated by the CPSU, and the birth of the Fourth International. Sure, there might be radical Centralists, but they won't be backed by the Centality

CENINTERN was founded in the early 24th century by a faction of Centralists who were frustrated by the Centrality's isolationist policy and wanted a more active expansion of Centralism abroad. They gave structure to foreign Centralist Parties and decided policy on their home nations. The Centrality's attempts to rein in CENINTERN paradoxically gave foreign Centralists more autonomy, and so less amenable to listen to Centrum's directives. Only recently did the Centrality attempt a reconciliation, which though sucessful did not give it any more control over CENINTERN's activities. The January 7 conference may be Centrum's attempt to gain greater influence in CENINTERN.

[fgalkin]

So, it's basically the Centrality attempting to bring which is essentially a foreign organization (any domestic component would be destroyed or completely taken over long ago, dictatorships are good that way) back under Centrum control? Gotcha.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Did a little number-crunching and this is the result:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... y=CNuuzeUM

This can be used as a rough guide where everyone stands in terms of power level. Nations are arranged by GDP first, then by Navy points. I didn't consider Army points because they're less important in total war (and because the Lost don't really care about enemy armies).

I don't guarantee accuracy and if you see an error, let me know.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Tanasinn]

Shroomarcos's declaration, if the wrong people end up dead, presents a potential casus belli for the Union, and, as an extention, a plot jumping-off point. I'm gonna have to review the local politics.