SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread?

[K. A. Pital]

JSEZ COORC is me, Shep/Bean and Canissia, FYI (since treaty between OMSK and Canissia, and OMSK can be administered by any 2 of the 3 SC powers)

Rules can change; but why would great powers want them to?

Shep doesnt want spy LEOSATs; neither do I, and for a good reason; they are a war sign and they FUCK UP game mechanics since you can't really spy on the other nation - that is the OTHER PLAYER

I talked to Rogue and said that MESS member plans for LEO sats are out of game and the JSEZ is done to make that happen, right; the LEO spy sats a huge WAR NOW sign posted in the sky; and besides they are a free card for claiming ANYTHING about the other guy - you can't really SPY when the nation is the poster, can you...

"Oh I saw this boxy stuff on the sat and attacked his nation because he militarizes".

"But we don't do shit!"

"Sorry, your capital is cinders".

[K. A. Pital]

Another proposal:

we conference here, post results and funny moments in the game thread. For timescale purposes obviously


Expansion pic reposted for ease of discussion.

People can report here or there or via PM if they want to be private.

[RogueIce]

JSEZ COORC is me, Shep and Canissia, FYI.

Rules can change; but why would great powers want them to?

Shep doesnt want spy LEOSATs; neither do I, and for a good reason; they are a war sign and they FUCK UP game mechanics since you can't really spy on the other nation - that is the OTHER PLAYER

I talked to Rogue and said that MESS member plans for LEO sats are out of game and the JSEZ is done to make that happen, right; the LEO spy sats a huge WAR NOW sign posted in the sky; and besides they are a free card for claiming ANYTHING about the other guy - you can't really SPY when the nation is the poster, can you...

"Oh I saw this boxy stuff on the sat and attacked his nation because he militarizes".

"But we don't do shit!"

"Sorry, your capital is cinders".

Yeah. Beo, he does have a point. Spy sats and any claims made by them would easily turn into what the Shadow Empire did over in Mangka all over again. We obviously don't want that.

Should there be some legitimate, non-spy reason for it (weather satellites or whatever) then perhaps we can make an OOC, Act of Q agreement to magically make any and all LEO objects not spy satellites no matter what? Just as we're "enforcing" realistic standards of military equipment, could we also "enforce" No Spy Satellites as well?

[Shroom Man 777]

Sure. I mean, a lot of times I just struggle to keep up and amble aimlessly

So, foreign investors from other big nations, feel free to start investing in Shroomania and the FUNGAL AXIS! Buy our boats! Buy our guns!

Shroomania intends to lead the world by having a monopoly on pornography.

Bear can have his shitty TV.

[Beowulf]

The problem I have with JSEZ is that it enforces the broken idea that airspace extends to infinity and beyond

If 1000 miles are infinity and beyond to Huang Di Beowulf, perhaps he should just enjoy his launches off from Tian Xia and make sure that LEO launches don't pass over JSEZ, or Saddamistan.

We see that you're objecting because LEO objects are not allowed; LEO stuff is where most military shit dwells. So, no cookies.

Soviet-style saber rattling

The JSEZ is not eve a god damn military pact

The enforcement of the JSEZ no-fly zone is principally done through Shep's ASAT launchers. Any saber rattling from him is defacto saber rattling by the OMSK pact, which makes up the majority of the JSEZ.

LEO is where most things dwell, not only military satellites. Also, although you've committed to not shooting down objects lower than 1000 mi (most likely due to the fact that your ASATs can't kinematically hit something lower than that), JSEZ says

Spatial border - space upwards of 1000 miles.

which indicates that space above 1000 miles is still national airspace.

436 out of the 873 currently active satelites orbit below 1000 mi. source

[RogueIce]

Again, Act of Q, spy satellites Do Not Exist? Since realistically they can't, short of some pre-arranged agreement between two players.

We do not want another Shadow Empire incident.

Player 1: I say such-and such exists. And I destroy it! Haha!
Player 2: Um, no it didn't, and since it's my country I should know.
Everyone Else: Oh fuck, how do we retcon this and deal with the inevtiable conflict this will probably generate?

Yeah, we don't need that again.

That may be the way to handle this I think.

[K. A. Pital]

That's how international relations work.

In the JSEZ we can forcibly restrict spacecraft because we know it will get shot the hell down if it violates.

Outside of our little rools playground, there's a free for all.

I propose no Q acts; if our political squarry leads to technological development problems in the world, SO BE IT.

That's the way things are in reality, political postures have ruined not a single technology in the making.

Spatial border - space upwards of 1000 miles.

That means international space begins up there.

I will clarify that for you and amend JSEZ entrance in the real thread.

436 out of the 873 currently active satelites orbit below 1000 mi.

Because in real life Earth there's shitloads of LEOSATs (many of which ARE probably spysats and milsats) LETS MAKE IT SO!

Yeah.

[RogueIce]

That's how international relations work.

In the JSEZ we can forcibly restrict spacecraft because we know it will get shot the hell down if it violates.

Outside of our little rools playground, there's a free for all.

I propose no Q acts; if our political squarry leads to technological development problems in the world, SO BE IT.

That's the way things are in reality, political postures have ruined not a single technology in the making.

Spatial border - space upwards of 1000 miles.

That means international space begins up there.

I will clarify that for you and amend JSEZ entrance in the real thread.

Perhaps so. Just so long as the understanding is Because I Say So does not qualify as evidence that a country did, in fact, have something. Spy satellites or no.

If you want that, you'll have to prearrange over PMs.

[phongn]

One of IRT's corporations sees a possible market opportunity (ahem) and is seeking to capitalize on it. These satellites are intended to be deployed into a circular LEO with orbital altitudes of ~780km. The estimated deployment will be 77 satellites; prospective customers include ACV operators for monitoring operations globally.

[Beowulf]

Again, Act of Q, spy satellites Do Not Exist? Since realistically they can't, short of some pre-arranged agreement between two players.

We do not want another Shadow Empire incident.

That may be the way to handle this I think.

STGOD baseline rules dictate that aside from covert operations, the player who controls it controls everything that happens inside of it. Spy sats (unless the images are faked), don't show anything in a nation that the player doesn't want to have happen. You can't see something that doesn't exist (unless you fake it).

[K. A. Pital]

Hooray.

You made me and Shep look like real peaceniks; we're actually both armed nations with functioning military complexes, but the way Beowulf puts it, you see, it's much better for us to avoid that.

And you know what spysats mean else, right? Don't fucking pretend you don't, because you sure as hell do:

with a good SPYSAT resolution, you could make out the location of another nation's military objects, and no matter of concealment will save it from LEOSATS.

Understand what this means?

"I stage this R-7 polygon"

"Huand Di has determined it's precise location and fired a SCUD. Now let's de-escalate, once the Sheppish/Soviet whatever military threat is gone!!! WOOT!"

Well here's the deal: FUCK THAT

And most of the goodwill Rogue and Arik have been showing is now evaporating; I can't see any other reason but the will to bomb the SHIT out of us.

[PeZook]

PeZook, and other folk, can we talk about the ACVs and FCS? I'm no good with numbers and with countries buying FCS from Shroomania and all... I'm at a total loss

Well, first things first.

We need to figure out how many countries want in on the International Agency Thing. Those who are in get to make FCS and ACV as assigned by the agency, the rest will have to buy licenses.

Then we figure out what kind of capacity each country has ; I declared a four-slipway shipyard right at the start, so i can make four FCS-sized ships at once. I'd take similar data from all signatories.

Then the good stuff: once we know what kind of production we can run, the Agency gets a common budget from all signatories, and receives first orders. Then it assigns production orders to each signatory. The cash comes to the agency, we assume it's 90% for costs and 10% pure income, and then distribute that income.

Alongside, the Agency uses some available dockspace for R&D and prototyping of new commerce ships.

Whew. Sounds complicated, eh?

Don't worry, I'll handle all the accounting, and you can concentrate on petty squabbles over who wants how much of what

[But seriously... I'm clueless. How many FCS have we built? Have I finished building that floating drydock?]

Well, currently I'm the only one really building FCS, I'm making an order for Stas. They will be done by the end of FY2009, untill then my shipyards are completely occupied.

As for the drydock, I gave a rough estimate of 12 months, so it will be done halfway through FY 2009.

[K. A. Pital]

PeZook, you still in for JSEZ I assume. We made a MAP extending to next week to assimilate Central Sea.

It turned out some people don't really get why the JSEZ means a decreased military threat as opposed to an increased one.

It also turned out those are the same people who want to make LEO full of sats and think this doesn't look like a military threatening move; but the JSEZ does...

[RogueIce]

Hooray.

You made me and Shep look like real peaceniks; we're actually both armed nations with functioning military complexes, but the way Beowulf puts it, you see, it's much better for us to avoid that.

And you know what spysats mean else, right? Don't fucking pretend you don't, because you sure as hell do:

with a good SPYSAT resolution, you could make out the location of another nation's military objects, and no matter of concealment will save it from LEOSATS.

Understand what this means?

"I stage this R-7 polygon"

"Huand Di has determined it's precise location and fired a SCUD. Now let's de-escalate, once the Sheppish/Soviet whatever military threat is gone!!! WOOT!"

True. Would it be feasible then, to develop some international regulatory agency? They would inspect any and all proposed LEO satellites to confirm they can not be used for spy purposes. They can then affix a transponder on them, and the satellite never leaves their custody until it is launched (hell, maybe set up some Interantional Space Agency to deal with weather satellites or whatever else, and they distribute and ensure it does not violate any nation's privacy) or something like that.

Any such non-approved satellite in LEO is fair game to be shot down. Would this be at all workable?

[RogueIce]

We need to figure out how many countries want in on the International Agency Thing.

Just to be clear, you know I'm in on this, right?

Hm, maybe you and Stas should make an entry for the ISCA and JSEZ respectively in the Alliances thread? Maybe rename it "Alliances and Treaty Organizations" or something? Since I'm pretty sure the FTYO is out there but not an actual alliance per se.

[PeZook]

We need to figure out how many countries want in on the International Agency Thing.

Just to be clear, you know I'm in on this, right?

Yep, just read your declaration.

To Stas: We confirm we want in on JSEZ. For the future of space exploration!

Hm, maybe you and Stas should make an entry for the ISCA and JSEZ respectively in the Alliances thread? Maybe rename it "Alliances and Treaty Organizations" or something? Since I'm pretty sure the FTYO is out there but not an actual alliance per se.

I was thinking aboutsomething like that.

I will write something up tomorrow, and sort out the ISCA accounting stuff over the weekend.

[K. A. Pital]

Would it be feasible then, to develop some international regulatory agency?

Actually why not ... [thinks]

HMM. Now, LEOSAT launcher made in a Neutral Zone, operated by an International Space Commission.

If people launch their sats at home, well tough fucking luck, but if it passes JSEZ, Saddamistan or any othre nation good enough to get it, it's gone.

If people launch LEOSATS from the Neutral Space Center passed commission, fine.

This means guys there are scientists, and no military shit gets beamed up LEO through Neutral Space Center

This is a plan for FY 2009 and beyond though (probably 2010 or so); a real neutral territory must be found, a real neutral launch center built. Do you know how long it took say Brazil to make one launch center...

[K. A. Pital]

As for JSEZ.

It's not a military or power alliance but a ZONE with regulations. No military, no economy. It's justa ZONE.

ZONE will be shown by Border. I will put it on the map.

Oh, and lest assured that BLACKADDER and TECHNOCRACY space projects comply with JSEZ; as we said, peaceful exploration is not hindered.

GPS is MEO (10K mi/ 20K km MEO). Both GLADOS and BLACKADDER GPS reside there.

[RogueIce]

Actually why not ... [thinks]

HMM. Now, LEOSAT launcher made in a Neutral Zone, operated by an International Space Commission.

If people launch their sats at home, well tough fucking luck, but if it passes JSEZ, Saddamistan or any othre nation good enough to get it, it's gone.

If people launch LEOSATS from the Neutral Space Center passed commission, fine.

This means guys there are scientists, and no military shit gets beamed up LEO through Neutral Space Center

This is a plan for FY 2009 and beyond though (probably 2010 or so); a real neutral territory must be found, a real neutral launch center built. Do you know how long it took say Brazil to make one launch center...

Indeed. Inspectors will come from all JSEZ signatory nations. They will each have to inspect and approve. Various regulations will be put into place to ensure that they are neutral, nobody gets corrupted, whatever (this is of course on the honesty of the players).

You could build your LEOSAT at home or maybe (eventually) have it built at the NSC (at cost or some other method TBD) but either way it gets inspected.

[Shroom Man 777]

PeZook, and other folk, can we talk about the ACVs and FCS? I'm no good with numbers and with countries buying FCS from Shroomania and all... I'm at a total loss

Well, first things first.

*snip*

Whew. Sounds complicated, eh?

Don't worry, I'll handle all the accounting, and you can concentrate on petty squabbles over who wants how much of what

I'm game!

[But seriously... I'm clueless. How many FCS have we built? Have I finished building that floating drydock?]

Well, currently I'm the only one really building FCS, I'm making an order for Stas. They will be done by the end of FY2009, untill then my shipyards are completely occupied.

As for the drydock, I gave a rough estimate of 12 months, so it will be done halfway through FY 2009.

Garr... I'm building my own FCS... (I should've announced that ) But since Shroomania is bigger than PeZookia, I think we can handle more than four...

So I'll just say I'm also building five, to match Stas' order. But I've got a few.... say five more, open in case of any new orders.

So... I can build 3 FCSes, who wants 'em?

[Damn I'm terrible at this!]

[RogueIce]

So... I can build 3 FCSes, who wants 'em?

[Damn I'm terrible at this!]

We'll take them, as trial ships to help us transition into a contributing member of the ISCA when it is formed and ready to go.

[K. A. Pital]

build at home, launch at home NOT

And I still don't get what's the deal with LEO SATs.

If Huang Di, who has been the most vocal proponent of them would show me WHY leo is desirable (GPS MEO, stations coudl also be beamed to MEO: more money, but GREATER PEACE AND SECURITY, and other things).

[Shroom Man 777]

@ Rogue Ice: [I am HORRIBEL at numbers!]

Wait. Let me retcon that to 5. We can build 5 ships.

Uh. You can get 3 FCS while I also fill up Canissa's order of ACVs. 2 ACVs for Canissa right now, and then we'll keep on building (together with Baerne) more to fill their order.

Is that... good?

[RogueIce]

build at home, launch at home NOT

Oh I agree, Sorry if that wasn't clear. The intent was "built at home, shipped to NSC, inspected and launced at NSC".

And I still don't get what's the deal with LEO SATs.

If Huang Di, who has been the most vocal proponent of them would show me WHY leo is desirable (GPS MEO, stations coudl also be beamed to MEO: more money, but GREATER PEACE AND SECURITY, and other things).

Well Phong mentioned a proposal for some LEO SATs having to do with the ACVs.

But I'll admit the whole thing is above my paygrade anyway.

Uh. You can get 3 FCS while I also fill up Canissa's order of ACVs. 2 ACVs for Canissa right now, and then we'll keep on building (together with Baerne) more to fill their order.

Is that... good?

Sure? Don't look at me for number crunching.

Just so long as my order is placed and I hopefully get them on a reasonably timely schedule, I'm good.

[Shroom Man 777]

Good. Good.

Shroomania's gonna have to build more shipyards too!

Eh, I'm gonna delegate some of these ship-building to other FUNGAL AXIS nations. I mean, Coyote's ordered ten (10!) ACVs!

EDIT:

And holy crap! There's also Shep's order to consider!

Gah! FUNGAL AXIS! Unite! We've got ships to build!