SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Steve already approved of that.

Excellent. I was starting to feel guilty about it when I finally grasped how IBPs worked, wasn't certain if you'd get the cut you deserved.

[Steve]

As for IBPs, does anyone want me to give rules for expansion of them?

I figured it'd be something like a 6 months to a year time span in which every such interval you get like a quarter new IBPs of those you spend. IOW, if you spent 100 IBPs for a 6 months or a year you'd get 25 IBPs as a result.

Alternatively it could be quarterly but with a lower rate, like 1-2 new IBPs per 10 IBPs allocated to industrial expansion every three months.

[K. A. Pital]

Alternatively it could be quarterly but with a lower rate, like 1-2 new IBPs per 10 IBPs allocated to industrial expansion every three months.

Each year, not quarter-year. Industrial expansion should be slow and costly. Many players have 100s of IPs left every month. If that goes to expansion, they will advance from Industry X to X+1 in two years (100 each quarter would give them 10 new IBPs each quarter, and 40 IBPs by end year, 80 by two years and in two and a quarter they'll be Industry X+1 from Industry X.

[Coyote]

Depending on how down-in-the-weeds you wanted to get, we could divide Industrial capacity into specific fields:

Aeronautics (civilian light/medium/heavy; military light/medium/heavy)
Automotive (civilian light/medium/heavy; military light/medium/heavy)
Nautical (civilian light/medium/heavy; military light/medium/heavy)
Medical (battlefield 1st aid, cancer, chronic diseases)
Infrastructure (electricity grid, water treatment, roadways, railways, public transit, power gens, etc)
Electronics (telegraph, telephone, consumer appliances, TV, radar, eventually computers, etc)
Agriculture (improve diet & health of citizens, become exporter)

--you have to spend at least 20+ IBPs a year for 5 years to advance in that field, at which point you always have 5 IBPs permanently invested in that field that are just "always there" and no longer need to be accounted for.

That way it becomes possible to become a leader in a certain field of endeavor without necessarily dominating all fields. You can keep spreading 5 IBPs per field and advance slowly across the board, or, you can invest heavily in a field and become "the go-to guy" for that field.

[Norseman]

Look... I really, really don't want to play accountant I do want a mechanism for supporting military units (especially when they're engaged in combat), but that's as far as I want to go accountancy wise.

[K. A. Pital]

I believe so as long as the advances are realistic, we shouldn't calculate too much.

[Coyote]

RP'ing it all out is prefereable. Each time the subject comes up about how to quantify an advancement, though, we're going to face this.

[RogueIce]

How about we do some of these things SDN Wars combat style? By which I mean the mods (Steve, myself and TimothyC as memory serves) can work up some number-crunching, but it stays behind the scenes. That way, people can RP, but if they seem to be powergaming, advancing too rapidly, or so on, the mods can say "NO" and then slap them with the behind-the-scenes mechanics if need be (just to show that we're being fair). And, of course, what the mods say goes.

[Ryan Thunder]

That puts alot of work on the mods, though.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It jolly well better be transparent. Because I don't think any of us will tolerate some hocus pocus.

[loomer]

We could nominate accountants from the people who enjoy number crunching, perhaps?

[Steve]

Rogue, Timothy, and I would post the mechanism we decide upon obviously.

[Thanas]

Fine by me as long as it does not force me to redo my budget again.

[Coyote]

I can help come up with stuff, if desired. Because I dislike math, I will seek to find simple and clear ways to express the values when possible.

[Thanas]

I thought there was an industrial cieling of 500 points, only to be increased by the economy rating?

Also, how does this impact the economy rating?

[Steve]

It doesn't, and it's just a proposal to let people put spare IBPs to work in expanding industrial capacity if they desire. You don't have to change your budget, really. I wouldn't even do so until Q4 1925 at the earliest since I need points to construct my full run of fast battleships and then enough to construct a run of 1926 Large Cruisers, as well as adding another 55-70 capacity slipway. And even if I go generous with a rate of a quarter for growing (4 IBPs into expansion gives 1 IBP) instead of a tenth (10 for 1) I'll probably leave it at a year to complete as has been recommended.

[Coyote]

I hope Steve and the other mods don't skin me, but I'll throw this out to cuss and discuss.

This is a modified version of my earlier proposal to Steve via PM. It is nothing more than an idea I came up with. No one has agreed to this. It is completely my ponderings and does NOT reflect any agreement that has been made.

I'm putting this out to be examined as a proposal and it can be picked apart, added to, or completely trashed as we see fit.

The rules about population, economy, industry, etc stay the same. This is for tracking IBPs.


COYOTE'S PROPOSED IDEA FOR IBP TRACKING/COSTS and RAISING SCORES:


The costs given here are to RAISE a NEW UNIT. It takes 1 year to do that.
Once the Brigade/Squadron/etc is raised, cut the cost in 1/2. That is how much it costs to MAINTAIN.
If you wish, wait until you have assembled your DIVISIONS, WINGS or SHIP as you like them, then cut the cost of the whole unit in half. It may be easier to keep track that way.


The Army:
1 IBP = 1 Light Infantry Brigade of 5,000 men (includes support units).
3 IBPs = 1 Infantry Division.
Prerequisite: None
Horse transport cost: add +1 per Brigade (doesn't make them Cavalry)
Engineers: add +1 per Brigade. Prereq: Econ & Ind must equal 4.
Commando/Sturmtruppen: add +2 per Brigade. Prereq: Econ & Ind =5

2 IBPs = Motorized Brigade (Infantry in trucks; OR armored cars; OR motorcycles)
6 IBPs = Motorized Division
Prerequisite: None
Engineers: add +1 per Brigade.
Commando/Sturmtruppen: add +2 per Brigade.

3 IBPs = Cavalry Brigade
9 IBPs = Cavalry Division
Prerequisite: None

5 IBPs = Armored Tank Brigade
15 IBPs = Armored Tank Division
Prerequisite:
WW1 era tech: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 4 or more
Postwar tech: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more

4 IBPs = Artillery Brigade, Horse (Tractored: +1)
12 IBPs = Artillery Division, Horse (Tractored: +1)
Prerequisite:
Horse-drawn: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more
Tractored: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 6 or more

This allows you to create "triangle" or "square" (or even "hexagonic") combined-arms Divisions as you see fit; the cost per Division will rise accordingly.

-------------------------------

Air Force:
4 IBPs = Fighter Squadron, pre-war type. War era: +1; postwar: +2
12 IBPs = Fighter Wing, pre-war type. War era: +3; postwar: +6
Prerequisite:
pre-war: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 4 or more
war-era: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more
postwar: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 6 or more

5 IBPs = Bomber Squadron, pre-war type. War era: +1; postwar: +2
12 IBPs = Bomber Wing, pre-war type. War era: +3; postwar: +6
Prerequisite:
pre-war: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 4 or more
war-era: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more
postwar: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 6 or more

5 IBPs = Autogyro Squadron
15 IBPs = Autogyro Wing
Prerequisite: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more

Note: for specialized aircraft, ie flying boats, floatplanes, or aircraft with special gear attached such as arrestor hooks, parasite fighter attachments, or catapault launch gear, add +1 per Squadron.

Zeppelins:
10 IBPs = 1 Zeppelin
Prerequisite: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more

-------------------------------

The Navy:
Ships:
1 IBP = 1000 tons worth of ship. (so, 5 IBPs makes a 5000 ton ship, etc)
Submarines are x2 cost.




-------------------------------




Industry and upgrades:
To begin a project, invest 5 IBPs in planning and surveying, and then after that, it becomes the following cost:

6-month projects:
1 IBP = 50 km of track
1 IBP = 50 km of telegraph wire
1 IBP = 50 km of range for a radio transmitter (limit 100 km)
1 IBP = 50 km of road, or 1 city block being built.
1 IBP = 50 km of electrical wire, or 1 city block being electrified.
1 IBP = 50 km of pipeline, any, or 1 city block's worth of plumbing.
1 IBP = 1 city block of streetcar rail
1 IBP = 1 bush-pilot landing field for light aircraft

1-year projects:
2 IBP = 1 km of coastal defense fortress
2 IBP = 1 km of "Maginot-line" (artillery bought seperately by Brigade, see above)
2 IBP = 1 Airplane's worth of airport facilities (hangar, runway, lights, radio, tower, fuel, etc) per 5,000 people.
2 IBP = 1 Ship's worth of harbor facilities (passenger, cargo, fuel, etc) for 5,000 peoples' needs.
2 IBP = 1 Train station for passengers and cargo for 5,000 people.
2 IBP = 10 meters of bridge across a river, rounded up

3 IBP = 10 Megawatt's worth of power station (dam, coal, oil, etc) rounded up
3 IBP = 1 Sub's worth of Submarine Pen
3 IBP = 1 Zeppelin Tower (not just docking but facilites for hydrogen/helium, etc)

4 IBP = Upgrade a Factory or change an existing one to new production
4 IBP = 100 meters of shipyard capacity

2-year projects:
5 IBP = Military Base for 1 Division (barracks, classrooms, academies, training & firing grounds, etc)
5 IBP = Air Force Base for 1 Wing (refueling, bomb bunkers, practice ranges, barracks, academies, etc)
5 IBP = Naval Port for 100,000 tons worth of fleet assets (refueling, quarters, classrooms & academies, etc)


RAISING YOUR SCORES:

At the end of each year, add up how many IBP's you've spent.
Divide it by 1/2.
Keep track of the sum.
Once you're reached 500 IBPs spent ("invested in ___"), then add +1 to one of the following: Econ, Industry, or Infrastructure.


Do not include IBPs used to raise and/or maintain military forces. Those are "spent" and lost.

[Steve]

I hope Steve and the other mods don't skin me, but I'll throw this out to cuss and discuss.

*hides knife*

Now, why would we do that?

[Coyote]

I hope Steve and the other mods don't skin me, but I'll throw this out to cuss and discuss.

*hides knife*

Now, why would we do that?

My hide would make very poor luggage. Not supple enough. Maybe more greasy fries, and a year or two...

[Evincer]

A couple of questions

1. Would we have to adjust our existing build queues up to Q2 to compensate for this new plan? Because I would be okay with it if it began in Q3.

2. It seems a little inflexible. What if Bolivaria invests in television, and also mass distribution of radio and telegraph towers, but not road construction. On its own, television and telegraphs will probably not lead to an infrastructure improvement, but combined with additional road and railroad building later on, it could. How does one account for all that if a country is not investing in solid blocks of "infrastructure" or "economy?"

[Steve]

It's not a new plan. It is Coyote's proposal for some ways to spend IBPs, posted for comment. Hence his fear of being flayed.

[Norseman]

I kind of like the military stuff, that part *does* make sense, but the civil development stuff... I mean fer crying out loud I do *not* want to be planning every road and large scale dam in *BRAZIL*.

[Steve]

Honestly I'd prefer just wrapping up the building of a divisional base with the price of building the division and make it a year. And tracking the numbers of such is not something I wish to do.

[Evincer]

I understand that it is a proposal and I think it has merit (especially in regard to infrastructure spending, which previously had been difficult to quantify.) But in terms of military orders, it could really screw up everyone's queues. I think military build queues should be left the same up to Q2 with no change (especially on the longer-term products), in order to maintain everyone's build proportions, but all Q3 spending save for existing long-term projects should begin along the lines of Coyote's proposal.

Coyote, I'm interested to know how the investment in TV research could be measured (I figure by now that the international experts that the Bolivarian Union attracted have formed a high-tech research firm), and also how the construction of large communal residencies with a heavily bomb-resistant design and protected bomb shelters in the basement should be measured (Bolivaria invested 60 points last quarter and 48 pts this quarter). Also, there have been two successive quarters of redundant, deep-level subway construction. I'd like to hear your take on how these could be measured.

[Evincer]

I kind of like the military stuff, that part *does* make sense, but the civil development stuff... I mean fer crying out loud I do *not* want to be planning every road and large scale dam in *BRAZIL*.

I think it would be possible to outline major projects (e.g. 300 MW dam in X river) as well as general goals for road construction across multiple cities, for example. So 1000 km of urban road construction, 3000 MW of dams, or something. It won't be necessary to lay out every city plan, development and suburb extension! (unless you want to.)