STGOD 2k8 Planning thread

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2007-12-01 12:47am

I think what we really need, no matter what else we decide, are rules for just how much damage will be done to a planet's industry and infrastructure by an orbital bombardment, especially if the ground forces decide that the best defence is to place themselves in positions where a bombardment would have to cause collateral damage.

The worse we decide an orbital bombardment to be, the more appealling ground combat will be in order to preserve a planet's resources, and therefore the more robust rules we will need to abjugate the engagements.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-01 01:07am

Evil people have a lot of advantages, if this is done properly.

Good empires will be loathe to sacrifice their cities to defend a planet. So they will likely declare their cities, especially their capitols, open, like Paris was declared open.

Meanwhile, only the Hitlers will tell their boys to fight to the death. And even then there's the Weildings, professional soldiers who know it's madness to fight when all's lost.

So the evil will have many advantages, including being able to ignore civilians, an atmosphere of fear, instant capitulation. If a good empire acts out of character and decides to fight to the death and pull a Stalingrad, I am all for moderator punishment.

In my opinion doesn't even need to be complicated rules... most sane empires will declare their cities open, and fight from military bases with theatre shields up.

Resistance can continue on captured planets, with resistance members feeding information to whoever still lives. Sometimes, vital information, like the French resistance.

Fight to the death should be the exception, not the norm, meaning no rules are really necessary except case by case. Battle for Berlin should happen one or two times, not every time a planet's taken over. Capture should be relatively bloodless.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2007-12-01 01:31am

Well, let's look at it this way:

Resources are tight everywhere with the fall of the empire and fleet sizes are small. If you lose a world, that is a massive hit to your industrial capacity and a large gain to your enemy's. If you position your troops outside your cities, then your foes will laugh at you and not even engage you on the ground. They'll just pummel you into surrendering from orbit, or land troops in the city and starve you to death as they now control the planet's logistical lines. Remember, they control the skies, they can land where ever the fuck they want, so why would they land in the open where you can shoot at them? The only safe way to guard your people is to use them and the factories they run as a hostage, because if the enemy intends to land troops, that is all they care about. If they don't intend to land troops, they're going to glass the planet, and you're fucked no matter how you slice it.

In the universe we've set up, fighting to the death is going to be the norm with a lot of people. Let's name some of the nastier groups off the top of my head:

My Konige, heavy metal barbarians that fight because they like to fight
Shinn's Haruhiist's, more barbarians who are a side branch of my group, although I'm not sure about how they've changed in the interim, they still seem to enjoy a good fight
consequences. Enough said.
Darkevilme's space cat-girls, who have the stated goal of enslaving and eating anything that stands in their way
Nitram's Enclave, who are Space Romans intent on securing this sector of the galaxy so that reinforcements and colonists can arrive safely and consider boiling an entire world filled with innocent people captured by slavers a useful example. Oh, and their infrastructure is kind of in shambles after the war so they need to seize territory to repair their fleet back up to operational conditions.

There are a lot of guys who will, for one reason or another, gladly smash you in the face if they sense weakness. If you lose even a class 2 world without a serious fight, we're going to be all over you like vultures on a carcass. Don't play nice, play smart.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2007-12-01 01:56am

At the same time, if you attack and lose, you are going to be fucked as you will spend a ton of resources repairing and rebuilding, while everyone else is just building. And if you can't transport resources from planet to planet because you can't protect your own space from blockade, you will lose, even to the nice guy factions. War is a very serious business this time around, because just building a fleet and attacking isn't going to mean you win.

Tanasinn · Post by **Tanasinn** » 2007-12-01 02:26am

Does the 150-pt task force given to aggressors have to be seperate from the other fleets at game start, or can it be distributed amongst "main" fleets?

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-12-01 02:53am

I'd say that 'Orbital Control Assures Victory' but not that 'Orbital Control Assures Compliance.'

The way I see it, ground troops are used to suppress a populace and make sure that the planet remains profitable and usable. If you have no desire to make use of it, you can just crater all the main cities and head onwards. Or you could leave your ubar fleet in orbit, I suppose, to keep them under your thumb.

But once your fleet leaves, unless you have manz on the ground, you're basically letting them go back to doing whatever they were doing before. Ground forces, to me, are a 'tax' on ultra expansionist folks. You need to put boots on the planets to make them work for you, so you can't expand TOO fast or else you'll exceed the profit margin, and start spending more on boots than you're making... and that's when a bloated Empire can be taken apart by smaller guys. It helps keep someone from simply gaining more speed after each win.

Tanasinn wrote:Does the 150-pt task force given to aggressors have to be seperate from the other fleets at game start, or can it be distributed amongst "main" fleets?

You'd need to use it to attack. You can't say "I'm an aggressor!" and then send 100 points of ships at someone. That's just retarded.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2007-12-01 02:54am

Ok I have a question for my "BusterMachines" In keeping with the theme of saving the day at the nick of time wqithout anyone knowing they are coming, what sort of Stealth would they need to have and how much should i cost?

I don't need a true "Invis" stealth, only something that wil scramble Long Range FTL Sensorns up until a target is about 30-seconds sway from point of arrival.

The following is a list of BusterMachines using the new "Offensce/Deffence" rules as written by Covenant
ProductionLine BusterMachine:
6 +1O +1D +1H +1S= 10

BusterMachine #14
8 +2O +2D +1H +2S = 15

One of my questions, is am I even allowed to FIT that many small things on a single Machine?

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-12-01 02:57am

It's paid for, there's no reason you can't have it. If someone can make a 1+10O+10D vessel, you can certainly make a 15 point robot that's half special parts. It's not unfair if you do the math.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2007-12-01 03:08am

Ok, that makes me feel a little better.. Really, its just trying to make various aspects of Giant robots WORK within the mechanics of the game.

Giant robots ALWAYS show up in the nick of time, and no one ever seems to notice them [Stealth] + [Hyperspace] enchancments.

They also seems to posses Firepower and resilance far in excess of whatever something thier size should have [Offense] + [Deffence] Enchancments.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-01 03:08am

Academia Nut wrote:Well, let's look at it this way:

Resources are tight everywhere with the fall of the empire and fleet sizes are small. If you lose a world, that is a massive hit to your industrial capacity and a large gain to your enemy's. If you position your troops outside your cities, then your foes will laugh at you and not even engage you on the ground. They'll just pummel you into surrendering from orbit, or land troops in the city and starve you to death as they now control the planet's logistical lines. Remember, they control the skies, they can land where ever the fuck they want, so why would they land in the open where you can shoot at them? The only safe way to guard your people is to use them and the factories they run as a hostage, because if the enemy intends to land troops, that is all they care about. If they don't intend to land troops, they're going to glass the planet, and you're fucked no matter how you slice it.

This is a munchkin way to play. I know of no examples in real history where empires fight to the death. Even the Third Reich capitulated, surrendered after their figurehead was killed, and they had a cult of personality in Hitler. The Mongols pitched up a white tent, and that was enough to get entire cities to surrender because the cities knew if they didn't the Mongols would rape and destroy their city and leave nobody alive.

With theatre shields around military bases outside cities, it can still force a ground engagement like in TESB. An ultimately futile one, but some entertainment can come of it.

In the universe we've set up, fighting to the death is going to be the norm with a lot of people. Let's name some of the nastier groups off the top of my head:

My Konige, heavy metal barbarians that fight because they like to fight
Shinn's Haruhiist's, more barbarians who are a side branch of my group, although I'm not sure about how they've changed in the interim, they still seem to enjoy a good fight
consequences. Enough said.
Darkevilme's space cat-girls, who have the stated goal of enslaving and eating anything that stands in their way
Nitram's Enclave, who are Space Romans intent on securing this sector of the galaxy so that reinforcements and colonists can arrive safely and consider boiling an entire world filled with innocent people captured by slavers a useful example. Oh, and their infrastructure is kind of in shambles after the war so they need to seize territory to repair their fleet back up to operational conditions.

There are a lot of guys who will, for one reason or another, gladly smash you in the face if they sense weakness. If you lose even a class 2 world without a serious fight, we're going to be all over you like vultures on a carcass. Don't play nice, play smart.

How is putting your military in a city and forcing orbiting forces to glass it smart? You live to fight another day if you surrender, especially if it's a conditional surrender. Without a space fleet, you are finished.

You seem to be thinking this way. Put your military in a city, and then the orbiting forces will not glass it. That will only work on peace loving empires: if the galaxy is as brutal as you say it is, surrender is the only way to do it without causing your cities to be glassed, making fortification of cities rather pointless. What will evil empires say? Let a city with military in it survive, or make an example? Make an example will be the norm.

Meanwhile an empire that surrenders can act as resistance forces and be liberated later on.

Not to mention having super resistance in civilians is rather annoying and a rather stupid way of playing it. It is a huge double standard. Here is how whiners will go:

Put military in cities
Expect that enemy will be stuck in a fight forever and somehow they can win without the high ground.
Whine to mods when the orbiting forces decide to glass the city and use terror, expecting the invading military to follow some law of not glassing cities, when in war all rules go out the window and the ruling government was the ones to endanger their civilians in the first place by fortifying the city.

Complete capitulation is the only route available when dealing with, as you say, many evil empires. Resistance is only possible when the invaders fight a limited war.

If I was evil I glass a city. I fully expect the entire planet to surrender. I continue to glass a city an hour until you surrender, and if you don't you are out of the game. Game over. War is a bitch.

I see no reason why this wouldn't be the norm with people who are interested in self-preservation.

Tanasinn · Post by **Tanasinn** » 2007-12-01 03:21am

You'd need to use it to attack. You can't say "I'm an aggressor!" and then send 100 points of ships at someone. That's just retarded.

Oh, I plan to use it: I'm just unsure if it has to be kept a distinct force to start off with in the game, or if the ships can "already" be grouped with bigger, more effective fleets.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-01 03:27am

You know that almost makes me want to be evil. I'll be evil, then glass a city an hour and see if the guy surrenders, which of course will be unconditional. If he doesn't, and tries to broadcast to the galaxy that something terrible is going on, I'll laugh and glass another city. Maybe kill a few hundred guys an hour for every dead soldier of mine, like Kor from Star Trek.

It doesn't seem like last game where there was a huge penalty to glassing cities. All treaties, all galactic avenues, the Terra Empire, is dead, so who is he going to whine to? The mods?

Man I'm sooooooooooooooo evil.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2007-12-01 03:32am

You are going to piss everyone off though. And you just glassed your resources there. You are going to need those resource if you want to gain any advantages, and to repair any damage your fleet took. Plus planets still put up fights after surrenders like that, in subtle ways, that you force you to glass over stupid shit (and can you get your populace to support it?) and then force it into a big life or death drag out fight, sucking up resources. Your logistics base is going to be hurting if you just make them surrender like that, even while you piss off everyone else.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-12-01 03:37am

We specifically wanted a darker atmosphere. I find false pretenses of non-darkness ridiculous anyway, it just makes a situation where you've created several ready-made alliances for the bangbus. It's not hard to get over 'cultural differences' in order to fight an 'evil empire' of some sort. It's retarded and punishes people who want to be a grittier faction. People who want to be good often want to live in a fairy land where it's easy to be good, all you need is the power of love! If someone exists in the same universe as the rest of us, they put up with the same problems and struggles. Unless their technology is just so superior that they don't need to come down to our level, I find it offensive for someone to act as if they can keep up with a Dark Empire without getting their own Light Empire hands dirty.

If being good is hard, and means sacrificing the easy option for the sake of justice, then it actually means something. It's like being in a fight where I'm going to aim for the balls and throw rocks and my opponent wants some sort of nebulous 'goodguy' bonus power for fighting Marquis de Queensbury rules. We all get the same tools. If someone uses them to obliterate your worlds... maybe it's time to inject reality into morality..

I think it'd just be arrogant for us to continue building into the game an easily justified massive beatdown trigger state. It's not good in any sense whatsoever. I have no idea why anyone would find it favorable.

Glassing a city means you don't get the city. That's the penalty.

Goodguys should be good because they have the intestinal fortitude to occasionally miss out on an easy win in order to avoid killing civilians, or mistreating an ally, or whatever. Reality does not favor good or evil. So often we decribe 'expedient' actions as evil. Violence itself is not inherently evil. What I'd really like to see is a pacifist STGOD nation. Once you get that out of your system maybe you'll see why the rest of us are mean.

Plus, long times ago, enemies would get totally wiped out. It's the Carthage treatment. The Old Testament is full of that. Every city they invade is utterly wiped out.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2007-12-01 03:44am

Dark Hellion wrote:You are going to piss everyone off though. And you just glassed your resources there. You are going to need those resource if you want to gain any advantages, and to repair any damage your fleet took. Plus planets still put up fights after surrenders like that, in subtle ways, that you force you to glass over stupid shit (and can you get your populace to support it?) and then force it into a big life or death drag out fight, sucking up resources. Your logistics base is going to be hurting if you just make them surrender like that, even while you piss off everyone else.

Dude thats the same exact thing you we're trying to push last game when an alliance of over Five different natiosn was threatening to glass your worlds. Al lthis stuff about "Demoralising the troops" and "Fighting a resistance"

This is playing for keeps. If I want to steamroll over you, and I have the ships to do it, im not going to Care ((that much)) about glassing your worlds, only about snuffing out another copetator.

I for one am NOT playing a hostile force and don't intend on ever needing to Glass anyone. But if I do, if im forced into it, im not going to care one Bit about HOW many soldiers you have on a planet or what condition the plant is... Soldiers can't shoot a Starship.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-01 03:45am

My logistics base will not be hurting at all if I do this. I will have enough to maintain my current fleet, and in history any logistics train which relies on eating off enemy land such as Battle of the Bulge fail miserably anyway so I would never predicate military strategy on successful capture of enemy resources. I will pick and choose how I attack: what guarantee is there that everybody will be "pissed off" enough to do anything about it, in an evil gritty galaxy where rules are out the window?

I do not have to glass all my resources. I have an entire planet to pick. I can pick bumfuck, city of nowhere, continent of nothing and broadcast messages to the rest of the planet. I can make a list of rules for planetary governance, and institute martial law. Depending on how evil, I could shoot one hundred guys for every guy dead like Kor, so the resistance could end up being reviled by ordinary citizens. The key is to offer carrot and stick like Mongols. Surrender, and good things happen in fact you are treated like citizens of my empire. Do not surrender, and suffer extreme punishment.

Many sane people would prefer a gilded cage. And if not well, all I have to say is the more dead the funnier.

I'm just going to a scenario of what a realistic "evil" empire would be doing. It's not going to be twirling moustaches and some evil "code of honor" like some of you guys seem to be advocating. I am totally dead set against some arbitrary rule to unfairly punish someone who decides to glass, because it's not real, and let's face it the person who forces a conventional ground fight in a city is just asking for it. Plus glassing is fun.

This is all up to the mods and other seasoned players though, I am just a fringe guy. But an arbitrary rule not to glass is bullshit. In fact, if I do I will use propaganda all over the galaxy about how the military "endangered" the lives of their civilians and used their civilians as "human shields" and brought about innocent deaths instead of sanely surrendering. And I'm willing to bet some of the evil empires will buy it, being evil themselves and all. I don't expect a coalition of metagaming players to form and annihilate any player who starts glassing immediately in a post-fall scenario because there is no UN and no enforcing body, and will be disappointed if that happens.

So seems like don't lose in space and if you do surrender and fight another day ahahahaha.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-12-01 03:52am

RP'd techniques for population riot control will not really play into how quickly the populations come over to your control. While I appreciate the sentiment, that was a bad idea last time and it's a bad idea now. You can roleplay your method of strikebreaking being as you see fit, but I don't think it should really alter the amount of 'turns' it takes before the planet is functional again.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-01 03:59am

So be it.

I'm still not sure if I want to be evil though. If there's no gameplay advantage to it, I couldn't really care less: it is pickle to see a hundred civilians killed for every dead soldier and I wonder how people would react to that. It's even better if there's no gameplay advantage, means it's all about personal tastes.

There is historical precedent for uprisings though like Warsaw ghetto if you treat the people badly enough, so I can see where the resistance option is coming from. But they are crushed.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2007-12-01 04:22am

brianeyci wrote:So be it.

I'm still not sure if I want to be evil though. If there's no gameplay advantage to it, I couldn't really care less: it is pickle to see a hundred civilians killed for every dead soldier and I wonder how people would react to that. It's even better if there's no gameplay advantage, means it's all about personal tastes.

There is historical precedent for uprisings though like Warsaw ghetto if you treat the people badly enough, so I can see where the resistance option is coming from. But they are crushed.

Yeah, it's about personal taste. Really, none of us really care if you're evil or not, so it's not like this is a discussion the rest of us will have useful commentary on. Nobody to my knowledge is trying to be a shining paragon, but there's no bonus points to evil either. Going out of your way to be a jerkass will get you teamed up on just as quickly now as before, but for different reasons. Removing the pretense of goodness is important--but we're all still motivated by a desire to 'win.' Someone who likes to glass planets is a lot more dangerous than someone who wants to take them over slowly.

So if you do or do not want to be evil is entirely irrelevent to your Empire's survival chances, really. Don't be it, thinking it'll be easier or that there will be some sort of villian's club you'll gain admission to. Basically, everyone is going to be at everyone's throats. This is Reality TV with spaceship Armadas. The smartest option will be the pragmatic one, not the 'evil' or 'good' one. Don't alienate allies, expecting people to fear you, because there's no advantage to evilness either. Just don't expect a gold star of +2 Defense for being 'nice'.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-01 06:39am

At risk of digging up corpses, how did the last one end?

It's a valid question, and I'm seeing some of the uh "regulars" missing from here. Did it end badly, should I know what to avoid? Was there some dramatic conflict of interest, because it sure sounds like it from the tone of voice here that you guys are trying to avoid certain disasterous things that happened last time around.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2007-12-01 10:13am

brianeyci wrote:So the evil will have many advantages, including being able to ignore civilians, an atmosphere of fear, instant capitulation. If a good empire acts out of character and decides to fight to the death and pull a Stalingrad, I am all for moderator punishment.

"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." -- General John Stark, American Revolutionary War commander.

It doesn't take a fascist dictatorship to be willing to die fighting. I think you underestimate the resolve of the newly free; not many would be eager to go right back into servitude. Now, that's predicated on there actually being a fight; if cities are being glassed from orbit then surrender is the only viable alternative. But that doesn't stop a fucking massive resistance when the conqueror is attempting to use his stolen resources.

brianeyci wrote:Not to mention having super resistance in civilians is rather annoying and a rather stupid way of playing it. It is a huge double standard. Here is how whiners will go:

Put military in cities

Expect that enemy will be stuck in a fight forever and somehow they can win without the high ground.

Well, let's be fair here. No, they can't win, but if the attacker actually wants anything of value out of the planet, he should have to fight for it.

It should be fucking hard to get a functional, loyal world out of a conquered wreck. See STGOD4: I took the capital world of the Covenant of God early in the game and ended up running a fruitless occupation until nearly the end of the game; the only reason it ended was because the garrison fleet was attacked unprovoked and forced to retreat in disarray. I was nowhere near done pacifying the planet, because the resistance would not fucking die. (Bugsby was then forgetful enough to leave without dealing with my ground troops, who then just got in their transports and flew away. Not his finest hour, but it was damn funny.

)

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2007-12-01 12:33pm

I've decided that I don't particularly care if I get a functioning planet, or if the planet obeys me. All I want is the ability to glass cities without fuss, and execute civilians.

I haven't decided if I want to be evil yet though. It will likely depend on the number of evil empires, and since so many people are evil, I might be thinking of a Crusader army. It's already called the 117th Crusade, just need to decide if they're the insane kind or some kind of Babylon 5 Crusaders who try to be do-gooders.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2007-12-01 03:16pm

There is another very good reason to stick your military in your cities: the enemy controls the high ground, and can land wherever the fuck they want.

How would you rather do things? Land in the open and fight the enemy in their fortified facilities, or land in the cities (or close to them anyway) and just march right in to the undefended city and force the defenders on the offensive just to keep their logistics trains from being cut.

I can easily take a civ that positions its forces outside its major population and industrial sectors and propagandize that they "don't care about their civilians, preferring to hide in their armoured bunkers when the enemy starts landing".

You're thinking in 2-D and not about the actual objectives of a planetary invasion. The enemy in orbit can strike anywhere, so they will strike where it is most advantageous for them. Their objective of a landing is to take the resources of a planet for future use, to take the factories and use them to build the war machines for the next campaign. Thus the only places on the planet worth defending are the cities, because those are the only places worth attacking. If your troops are out of position, then you just gave the enemy the planet damn near for free.

Oh, and on how the last one ended, basically what happened was we all played "happy-happy nice-nice" for too long, and by the time the agressor states actually got the ball rolling two major bang-bus alliances were established, turning the whole thing into a boring Cold War that caused people to lose interest such that by the time anything interesting was actually starting up, too many people had left for it to be functional. This time we want belligerence and action.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2007-12-01 04:06pm

On the other hand, cities depend on resources from the land outside to function. If you have the city, but don't have supply into the city, the city will shut down, and be fairly worthless.

You have to control both the cities and the countryside to truly control a world.

Darkevilme · Post by **Darkevilme** » 2007-12-01 05:06pm

True but the countryside is too large and diffuse of assets to have a theater shield so anyone defending that from the invaders gets to experience orbiting capship weaponry uncomfortably close at hand.

A theater shield is not invincible but means that if you decide to destroy what's beneath it it's an all or nothing deal, you cant selectively target stuff through the shield to vaporize defender containing districts. Which is another thing against the idea of bases outside the cities in that the only thing that stops a theater shield from being pummeled down is if there's something valuable inside. A base full of hostile troops does not fall under that category thus bases will simply have their shields pummeled down until the glowing barrier coursing with energy touches the top of the base and overloads in a brief flash of annihilation.

As for insurgency, raiders and freedom fighters in the countryside and other places, approaches will vary.