SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Steve]

Hey Veg, ever consider that the soil in Van Halstoff might be a tad different from what's in South Veleria?

[Shroom Man 777]

What air-launched cruise missiles can fit into B-1 bombers, or B-1Cs with slightly enlarged bays? Cause according to wiki, the Lancer is rather deficient in killfucky cruise missiles.

[Norseman]

Hey Veg, ever consider that the soil in Van Halstoff might be a tad different from what's in South Veleria?

South Velaria is fairly big, it has lots of variation, so does Velaria. Note then that he didn't say South Velaria, he said Velaria. Most which is jungle, which has all the problems that jungle farmers have everywhere. However there are more problems than that; like the fact that the age of the stamp sized family farm is conclusively over. In fact the situation is even worse for the slaves you're bringing in; most of them would have little or no experience in farming. They would have some experience working as construction workers, as domestics, as lumberjacks, as industrial workers, and so forth.

Even if you find someone who did work in the agricultural business that doesn't mean they know much about agriculture; animal husbandry in a semi-industrial setting is more likely than that. Then you have orchards, vinyards, rubber plantations, cotton plantations, and various other labour intensive cashcrops. Such crops are very bad for stamp sized family farms, you need economies of scale, and a large operation to make them work.

However let us imagine that these particular slaves, a tiny fraction of them, actually do have experience in working on a crop that can either sustain them or be sold at a profit. The problem then becomes that Astarian agriculture is fairly capital intensive, it uses machinery, advanced drainage systems, crop-rotation systems engineered for the specific area they are at, and so forth. This is expensive, very expensive, and it requires a considerable degree of knowledge and to operate. Thus you need considerable capital.

So in short you're trying to persuade a bunch of slaves, only a fraction of which has relevant experience, to become yeomen farmers without basically any of the stuff they're used to having? Good idea.

It gets even worse though, you are taking a group of slaves with no experience in managing a business and you try to steer them into one of the riskiest business ventures there are? That is basically begging for people to take advantage of them, and even if people are honest they'd make a lot of mistakes. It's very easy to wipe out a farmer you know.

Then there's the question of what they're supposed to grow. Virtually every single commercial crop is best grown as part of a large farm. This isn't just because the big farmers buy out the smaller ones, but because big farms are far more cost-efficient. Of course if they're not meant to grow cash crops, perhaps you wanted them to be subsistence farmers?

Either way it is 24/7 backbreaking labour, constantly running the risk of failure, and on guard against the rain, the storms, the sun. Meanwhile there lies Van Halstaff, tempting, seductive. You can find work there, even simple menial work, even digging through the garbage heap you can find food and things to sell! Such a life versus the hellish existence of a farmer in the jungle?

Are you going to post armed guards to make sure that they don't run off the farms? Are you going to bind them with debt so they can't just leave? That's what it would take to make more than a handful of them take up the offer of being farmers, or stick to it for more than a few months.

P.S. This is part of the reason why I tried so patiently to explain to you that any freed Astarian slaves would not want to be Yeoman farmers in South Velaria. Indeed trying to make them into such farmers would be a bad idea.

[MKSheppard]

What air-launched cruise missiles can fit into B-1 bombers, or B-1Cs with slightly enlarged bays? Cause according to wiki, the Lancer is rather deficient in killfucky cruise missiles.

Blame the Commies and START. Basically, because the commies were so so worried about the B-1 spamming cruise missiles; they forced us to separate the single forward internal bay into two internal bays split by a divider, making it impossibul to put ALCMs in there; and prevented us from using external hardpoints; while the Tu-160 retained ALCM carriage...

Way back in SDN World I; I simply had my B-1Cs built without that damn internal separator in the forward bay, allowing me to carry something roughly the size of TSAR BOMBA.

[Steve]

Not all of the slaves are South Velerian or Astarian in origin, a number were Bissauruan, who likely do farm, and philanthropic groups could provide them the means to do so in line with Cascadia's desire to begin planting a civilian population in Van Halstoff, at least one big enough to provide services to the mining operations there and for the military presence.

If any don't, philanthropic groups will likely also fund their education and attempts to set up a life in Cascadia, assuming the Cascadian Congress doesn't do so.

[Norseman]

Not all of the slaves are South Velerian or Astarian in origin, a number were Bissauruan, who likely do farm,

And they would have the experience to farm as third world subsistence farmers farm. That means that you would have to spend considerable means bringing them up to date. Meanwhile a steady job down at the base would look far more tempting.

You can of course set up farming communities, but if you're also creating steady jobs elsewhere then a lot of people will simply leave the farms to get jobs. That's how it goes in the third world. Then richer and more successful people will scoop up the land, and develop it according to modern methods. Cf the Green Revolution.

[Steve]

Not all of the slaves are South Velerian or Astarian in origin, a number were Bissauruan, who likely do farm,

And they would have the experience to farm as third world subsistence farmers farm. That means that you would have to spend considerable means bringing them up to date. Meanwhile a steady job down at the base would look far more tempting.

You can of course set up farming communities, but if you're also creating steady jobs elsewhere then a lot of people will simply leave the farms to get jobs. That's how it goes in the third world. Then richer and more successful people will scoop up the land, and develop it according to modern methods. Cf the Green Revolution.

A) There aren't a lot of steady jobs elsewhere in Van Halstoff that would attract them. Unless you think that former Third World subsistance farmers can do modern mining. Sure, there's service provision for the mining operations and for the military.... which I never ruled out.
B) There are things like "co-operatives" that can be applied to deal with the fact that modern agriculture doesn't work quite the same.
C) Where there's a will, there's a way. Between philanthropists and the Cascadian government there's plenty of damned will for any of the ex-slaves who want to do as they wish.

Finally, as I was about to say in editing my earlier post...

Frankly, it was a fucking comment by a blogster, not a government act, not holy fucking writ, and even then it simply remarked that groups would help aide any of the freed slaves who wanted to stay and farm. The fact that an Astarian minister is confusing such a thing with some widespread program to get them all to farm makes me wonder where the hell his brain went running off to, or if it's simply a case of you making your characters critical of the situation as a way of coping with the fact that the entire damned world just had a case of Astarian slavers carrying Peace Corps workers to their slave markets blown wide open for all to see.

And did you miss where I pointed out that those who wanted to go to Cascadia proper (or anywhere else in that matter) would be aided in doing so?

[Steve]

P.S. This is part of the reason why I tried so patiently to explain to you that any freed Astarian slaves would not want to be Yeoman farmers in South Velaria. Indeed trying to make them into such farmers would be a bad idea.

Was that when I was trying to talk you into having it where your nation had a gradual emancipation campaign going on, partly funded by other governments? I was, at the time, just throwing ideas out for what you could do in the situation. Of course, it's clear to me you mostly ignored that in favor of gleefully maintaining yourself as the equivalent of a disowned bastard child of the Confederacy and Victorian England in a world where one major power alone could eat you for lunch and where even your only trading partners keep you at arm's length for how disgusting you are.

Y'know, you could've joined the game as a quaint nation with Victorian England's attitudes and behavior, a nation that kept with tradition while keeping pace with a changing world. It would've been interesting. Your position and culture could've given you a unique and potentially active place in the game. But no. You had to adapt Pendleton. You had to have slavery so you could push our buttons.

Well, congratulations. The only interactions most players want with you involve acts of state violence. Have a pleasant game.

[Sea Skimmer]

What air-launched cruise missiles can fit into B-1 bombers, or B-1Cs with slightly enlarged bays? Cause according to wiki, the Lancer is rather deficient in killfucky cruise missiles.

Blame the Commies and START. Basically, because the commies were so so worried about the B-1 spamming cruise missiles; they forced us to separate the single forward internal bay into two internal bays split by a divider, making it impossibul to put ALCMs in there; and prevented us from using external hardpoints; while the Tu-160 retained ALCM carriage...

Way back in SDN World I; I simply had my B-1Cs built without that damn internal separator in the forward bay, allowing me to carry something roughly the size of TSAR BOMBA.

JASSM will fit the standard rotary launchers, abet it is much less potent in range and firepower then AGM-86. Still it’s a max of 24 internal vs. a max of just 8 internal.

We let the Soviets get away with retaining Kh-55 capability because it only amounted to 12 missiles maximum, and because they just had so few of the planes. Since the treaty also capped total deployed warheads Soviet attempts to spam larger numbers of Tu-160s was not a serious issue. They’d have to cut back more heavily on ICBMs to do this, and while US air defenses sucked at least they existed, unlike strategic ABM at the time.

[Shroom Man 777]

Can Shep's hippotheticle B-1Cs carry an AGM-86?

[Sea Skimmer]

Any B-1 can carry AGM-86 internally if the forward bulkhead is removed, but you’re limited to a single eight round launcher occupying both forward bays in conjunction with a small auxiliary fuel tank. The bulkhead the USAF placed on the B-1B was simply welded in, rather then being bolt on, bolt off as originally intended. It could be ripped right out if the US felt like violating the arms treaty. The third bay aft is simply too small to ever carry that weapon.

The plane also has fourteen external hard points which can hold a single cruise missile each (or anything else you want up to about 4,000lb) but using them naturally means higher drag, reducing speed and range, while also increasing radar cross section of the aircraft until they are released. This would be a espically severa penality in the case of Sheps B-1C because it was designed for mach 2.2 speeds like the real life B-1A. B-1B was limited to mach 1.25, and in all realistic terms was subsonic.

Of course, as mentioned the same treaty that killed internal ALCM capability also killed use of the external hard points for any purpose (except a targeting pod, Russia very recently agreed to allow external use of one to support conventional missions) completely, but that’s not an issue here.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Just a general question: Does anyone know how well the Soviet supersonic missiles penetrate concrete, or will they just crumple on impact and not penetrate too much?

[Siege]

And I can use some form of legalese so that the San Doradoans are obligated to me (and thus to us) in some way for purchasing the nuclear subs?

We're not purchasing nuclear subs from you, the subs are our own design and are built in-house. We've leased a reactor design from you, which we're building ourselves. For the record, we've been leasing Shroomanian nuclear reactor designs for decades at least, since the previous generation of nuclear warships built by San Dorado (a nuclear Tico and two SSNs) make use of a Shroomanian nuke plant as well.

I utterly fail to see how leasing us a newer reactor design is suddenly a big deal proliferation-wise to folks in Byzantium et al: like us or not but we're not fucking insane, we're not gonna sell nuclear tech to anyone if that's likely to come back to bite us in the ass, and we can prove it too because we didn't proliferate the previous design we leased.

The FTO needs to prove it can make Frequesue stable.

Kindly note that the FTO is doing fine as long as Great Powers refrain from butting in on us.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I utterly fail to see how leasing us a newer reactor design is suddenly a big deal proliferation-wise to folks in Byzantium et al: like us or not but we're not fucking insane, we're not gonna sell nuclear tech to anyone if that's likely to come back to bite us in the ass, and we can prove it too because we didn't proliferate the previous design we leased.

One of the big reasons why the Soviets caught up with the submarine technology race, was because they acquired milling machines to make high quality screws from Norway and Japan. A submarine's acoustics is a sum of acoustics, and the nuclear reactor design forms a part.

The concern is not so much whether you will sell them, but industrial espionage. Surely, you as a capitalist state understand what industrial espionage is? Not even the US shares all its technologies with Israel, or the Japanese, especially the latter. The Japs are notorious for leaks.

[Siege]

The concern is not so much whether you will sell them, but industrial espionage. Surely, you as a capitalist state understand what industrial espionage is? Not even the US shares all its technologies with Israel, or the Japanese, especially the latter. The Japs are notorious for leaks.

And who is going to learn anything from our nuclear submarines? The two 'Stans? No, because they have their own supersilent superboats already. The MESS? No, because they're drowning in far more advanced Seawolf subs. The Slavs? I guess not; you guys have a dozen boomers with fenestrons and pumpjets and whatnot in production. Shroomania? Oh, wait, I guess not, because it's their reactor in the first place.

Seriously, colour me unimpressed by this argument. In the nuke sub game, we're running what's easily the least ambitious program on the face of the planet. Who ever is going to learn anything from our reactor that they didn't know before? Astaria? Khitan? Who are you so afraid of?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

And who is going to learn anything from our nuclear submarines? The two 'Stans? No, because they have their own supersilent superboats already. The MESS? No, because they're drowning in far more advanced Seawolf subs. The Slavs? I guess not; you guys have a dozen boomers with fenestrons and pumpjets and whatnot in production. Shroomania? Oh, wait, I guess not, because it's their reactor in the first place.

Seriously, colour me unimpressed by this argument. In the nuke sub game, we're running what's easily the least ambitious program on the face of the planet. Who ever is going to learn anything from our reactor that they didn't know before? Astaria? Khitan? Who are you so afraid of?

*shrug* I dunno but after Coilerburg and Adrianoplis pulled a stunt joining the UAR in the last game, some of us here expect the worst to happen. What's to stop someone in the FTO suddenly getting cold feet and joining Shep and Skimmer and Co?

I'm just adopting the US' own reluctance to share technologies, since after all, there are plenty of countries who are potential rivals out there. You will always want to bludgeon them, if the need comes to it. This is a naval arms race, anyhow.

[PeZook]

Fingolfin, dude, how much for those ocean surveillance ships?

I wanted to start making my own, but buying them is cool, too.

BTW, we should build a SOSUS network in the mouth of the Mediterrenean.

[Norseman]

Who ever is going to learn anything from our reactor that they didn't know before? Astaria? Khitan? Who are you so afraid of?

FYI this is the latest Astarian submarine, I'm not really looking for nuclear stuff since it'd be too difficult to build.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Fingolfin, dude, how much for those ocean surveillance ships?

I wanted to start making my own, but buying them is cool, too.

BTW, we should build a SOSUS network in the mouth of the Mediterrenean.

For you, as an SNC member, I'll offer them for 220 million, each. They are armed with weapons unlike the RL T-AGOS ships, so they will be more expensive.

I have thought about a SOSUS network, but I remember Skimmer mentioning that it wasn't as effective as it made out to be. I remember reading somewhere that it isn't too effective against the latest Russian subs now.

We could look into it though, but I wonder about its effectiveness along the coast.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shroomania has Type-23 frigates equipped with Sonar 2087, which is also a LFA thinggy. Maybe we can totally work on some sort of defensive sea patrol plan together?

That sort of is what Cain and Coot are doing.

Since Shroomania is an island nation, we'll be enhancing our capacities in ASW and stuff.


We should totally get the Canissian in on making the whole Old Continent secure from Shep-Skim dickeries.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Shroomania has Type-23 frigates equipped with Sonar 2087, which is also a LFA thinggy. Maybe we can totally work on some sort of defensive sea patrol plan together?

That sort of is what Cain and Coot are doing.

Since Shroomania is an island nation, we'll be enhancing our capacities in ASW and stuff.


We should totally get the Canissian in on making the whole Old Continent secure from Shep-Skim dickeries.

I'm not against that. Maybe I could make Cain a Commodore of a ... Cruiser or convert one of the Wasp into an ASW ship or something. Technically, Amphibious assaults are a low priority right now, so one of the 3 Wasp ships can be made into a command ship for ASW operations (and all those helicopters going around ...)

I was thinking of the Sonar 2087 but I wasn't sure how capable they were against the US' own ocean surveillance ships. The latter are known to be... rather more thoroughly equipped.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Royal Navy are said to be specialized in anti-submarine warfare due to their position being nearby to the Goddamn Soviets or something. Besides, isn't the RL T-AGOS ship in utter disrepair?

What is Cain commodore of? I mean, he is in charge of a search and salvage flotilla with those fancy sonars, so I thought he'd also have ASW stuff.


Since I'm boosting my amount of bombers as well, I wonder if we can get some sort of coordinated plan on killing the fuck out of anyone who tries something funny with us in the OC. I'm not investing in the capability to cuntpunch from afar just for the sake of self-gratification. I also happen to be looking out for PeZookia and other neighbors, for all it's worth. Come on, we - Byzantium and Shroomania - are working together to fit early-warning equipment on Goddamn A380s and Surveillance ShroomStrats. If you guys get over your hangups and we (including Canissia) get together cohesively - we will stand a chance when they come for us.

And trust me, they will.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Royal Navy are said to be specialized in anti-submarine warfare due to their position being nearby to the Goddamn Soviets or something. Besides, isn't the RL T-AGOS ship in utter disrepair?

Where did you read that? Global Security makes no mention of it. There are 3 distinct classes right now. I think you are mixing the ship up for the monohull one.

What is Cain commodore of? I mean, he is in charge of a search and salvage flotilla with those fancy sonars, so I thought he'd also have ASW stuff.

Cain was made a commodore of a small flotilla of vessels that are involved in ASW ships. There's nothing to stop me from going further from that.

Since I'm boosting my amount of bombers as well, I wonder if we can get some sort of coordinated plan on killing the fuck out of anyone who tries something funny with us in the OC. I'm not investing in the capability to cuntpunch from afar just for the sake of self-gratification. I also happen to be looking out for PeZookia and other neighbors, for all it's worth. Come on, we - Byzantium and Shroomania - are working together to fit early-warning equipment on Goddamn A380s and Surveillance ShroomStrats. If you guys get over your hangups and we (including Canissia) get together cohesively - we will stand a chance when they come for us.

And trust me, they will.

Well... the A380s are beginning to see service come end of the year...

[Siege]

*shrug* I dunno but after Coilerburg and Adrianoplis pulled a stunt joining the UAR in the last game, some of us here expect the worst to happen. What's to stop someone in the FTO suddenly getting cold feet and joining Shep and Skimmer and Co?

Oh, I dunno, common sense perhaps? What, we'd join them because we like getting bombed the fuck out of as a sideshow to some pointless war on the OC or something? Or because we like making international pariahs out of ourselves? What could possibly be the point of allying with the 'Stans?

I'm just adopting the US' own reluctance to share technologies, since after all, there are plenty of countries who are potential rivals out there. You will always want to bludgeon them, if the need comes to it. This is a naval arms race, anyhow.

Fine. If you want to retain the ability to casually curbstomp smaller nations, then say so. Don't try to obfuscate the point with this silly nonsense about industrial espionage.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Oh, I dunno, common sense perhaps? What, we'd join them because we like getting bombed the fuck out of as a sideshow to some pointless war on the OC or something? Or because we like making international pariahs out of ourselves? What could possibly be the point of allying with the 'Stans?

You should ask Coilerburg and Adrianopolis then. Much less Shepistan and Japanistan. If common sense were the rule of the day, Coilerburg and Adrianopolis wouldn't have joined UAR. Adrian himself admitted later in the MESS forum that he did it "for fun".

Fine. If you want to retain the ability to casually curbstomp smaller nations, then say so. Don't try to obfuscate the point with this silly nonsense about industrial espionage.

Hardly silly. I am taking the industrial espionage problem seriously. Which nation in the world wouldn't? Electronic warfare for example is one of the most sacred secrets in the military establishment. No one is seriously going to sell their EW techniques to anyone, unless they are seriously close allies.