SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread VI

[Simon_Jester]

I don't want the MEH to go down just because their warpgate went poo. If we're willing to send ships to slag them, then we might as well have a good fight on our hands, ne?

Wouldn't want the Shinrans to achieve great victory just by tricking the MEH by having their warships pretend to tie their shoelaces or something.

It won't. This destroys some ships, including the damn Density of his (which I so want to go down like a bitch, and by one of Pellaeon's plans). There will still be plenty of fatty warships left to die in Glorious Battle.

Hmph. I'm beginning to like this strategy less and less...

[RogueIce]

The Collectors will be showing up at MEHEarth, running a snatch&grab along with some Lost assets while the Coalition charges into the system.

The Bragulans and kitties will have fun with that.

Anyway, since my coalition has no intention of attacking A26, I feel reasonably safe from the Emissaries' threat.

[RogueIce]

And because I'm trying to be honest with my secret partners, I gave you guys a heads up about the robot threat. So you can do whatever you need to to prepare.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

I wonder if I'm the only one here who's even passably familiar with the original Haruhi Suzumiya novels, because I just had an idea regarding the Leader of the MEH.

In the novels, Haruhi has a direct rival in the form of a character named Sasaki, who has similar reality-warping abilities but different motivations. The Leader of the MEH can be comparable to SDNW4 Haruhi, as both are powerful ESPers who control entire countries. Putting two and two together, the Leader IS Sasaki.

If we're going to go with my "Haruhi as an exiled Q" idea, Sasaki/Sasha/the Leader could have also been an exile. She may have had good intentions at first, but she steadily became more and more corrupt, thus resulting in the Leader as we know her today. As for the name, maybe "Sasha" was a pseudonym she came up with, or her original name got corrupted over time until even she herself forgot it.

[Siege]

I'm not a part of the war, but I really don't like the idea of using heretofore completely unknown technobabble warpgate shenanigangs to take out "some" MEH warships/installations. Especially not if this is a one time trick and every other warpgate in the galaxy happens to conveniently be immune. It smacks of lazy writing, an easy way to get rid of (part of) the MEH heavy-hitters as a casualty-reducing plot device. That doesn't sit right with me: if you want this war, you should be prepared to sacrifice a whole bunch of assets to win it. You've got overwhelming superiority of forces as it is, relying on absurd last minute technobabble novelties to save yourself the inconvenience of the realities of war with the MEH is lame as hell.

Amusingly I'm pretty certain everybody here likes to yak on Star Trek when it introduces such tech-of-the-week geewhats that are conveniently forgotten/unusable the next time a problem comes along, and yet at the first sign of trouble we run screaming to the same stash 'o tired old plot devices? I'd say no: for better or worse we've got a point system, you shouldn't be able to squirm your way out of the inevitable consequences.

[Beowulf]

I'm not a part of the war, but I really don't like the idea of using heretofore completely unknown technobabble warpgate shenanigangs to take out "some" MEH warships/installations. Especially not if this is a one time trick and every other warpgate in the galaxy happens to conveniently be immune. It smacks of lazy writing, an easy way to get rid of (part of) the MEH heavy-hitters as a casualty-reducing plot device. That doesn't sit right with me: if you want this war, you should be prepared to sacrifice a whole bunch of assets to win it. You've got overwhelming superiority of forces as it is, relying on absurd last minute technobabble novelties to save yourself the inconvenience of the realities of war with the MEH is lame as hell.

Amusingly I'm pretty certain everybody here likes to yak on Star Trek when it introduces such tech-of-the-week geewhats that are conveniently forgotten/unusable the next time a problem comes along, and yet at the first sign of trouble we run screaming to the same stash 'o tired old plot devices? I'd say no: for better or worse we've got a point system, you shouldn't be able to squirm your way out of the inevitable consequences.

I'm finding I'm agreeing with you. At worst, I've proposed that there's a rate limit on warp gate transit, such that you can't move fleets between systems in a matter of minutes, but more along the lines of hours. Still preserves the idea of a fleet transit distance, and doesn't materially effect most (if any) players.

[Darkevilme]

Agreeing with Siege here. It doesn't sit well that warpgates are collossal bombs under any circumstances and sides its cheap. Now granted CN was an arsehole but he's gone and i see no reason to stoop from our usual level of play in order to stomp his nation into the mud with even more ludicrous force.
Plus i think simon wanted orks to try and steal the flagship of the MEH or at least one of their ultraheavies.

As for the MEHSTOMP plan. The Shroom/Dark plan is that our allies will distract the forces at earth while we hit and demolish the fleet at Xena(This is just to make it so that Xena isn't reinforced while we neutralize the fleet, the actual target can be switched around if need be to keep somewhere else busy), once Xena is dealt with the plan was we can move on earth without the Xena fleet going to reinforce it midway through landing procedures. Of course, this plan is liable to go awry when the galaxy's two machine intelligences show up over earth to swipe its mysteries and annihilate its surface respectively...i predict friction there.

[Force Lord]

Considering the fallout that will likely happen due to the MEH's attempted kidnapping of my leader, I might probably send in at least a full fifth of my navy to support the Coalition, once Centrum get's its shit together and decides to join.

[Simon_Jester]

Amusingly I'm pretty certain everybody here likes to yak on Star Trek when it introduces such tech-of-the-week geewhats that are conveniently forgotten/unusable the next time a problem comes along, and yet at the first sign of trouble we run screaming to the same stash 'o tired old plot devices? I'd say no: for better or worse we've got a point system, you shouldn't be able to squirm your way out of the inevitable consequences.

I believe that the one thing which can be permitted to justify asymmetrical point losses is superior quality of writing. Even that shouldn't make it totally lopsided- it's just that if someone writes an absolutely fucking beautiful "last stand" scene in which a 45-point ship takes a 60-point ship with it, I'm not complaining.

Likewise, superior strategy, as outlined well ahead of time by the players, can justify asymmetric point losses... but not that asymmetric, unless it proves possible to concentrate forces that have vastly superior numbers at the point of contact. If I bring 1000 points of warships and you only have 300 points of warships, it is not unreasonable to posit that I lose nothing except small craft and a handful of light ships while you lose everything or nearly everything... unless someone writes an absolutely fucking beautiful last stand scene again.

Both these concepts allow for parity- A can stage cunning plans and write good scenes approximately as well as B can. And neither should allow for gross asymmetry barring a grossly asymmetric commitment, which I would put at 3 to 1 or greater.

I don't support gimmicks being used to allow very small forces to destroy very strong ones, unless similar losses are taken on the other side of the table later on to balance it out- I wrote a scene with an 800 pt ship being blown up in drydock, but I fully expect the MEH to carve many many points of warships out of the orks' hide in retaliation.

(gives KlavoHunter a meaningful glance)

So I'm not a big fan of just splatting very large and important ships and having them suffer a critical existence failure, not unless you're committed to having some disaster on your own side balance it out the way it would be balanced out in a conventional battle between the two fleets.

[Simon_Jester]

Dark Hellion, could you explain the fact that you've got military construction at 25% of your GDP in your recent expansion post? And that you appear to be, in effect, retconning this in by setting such intensive construction in 3400?

Fellow mods, I'd appreciate your comments on this.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Dark Hellion, could you explain the fact that you've got military construction at 25% of your GDP in your recent expansion post? And that you appear to be, in effect, retconning this in by setting such intensive construction in 3400?

Fellow mods, I'd appreciate your comments on this.

20% is probably the max we ought to go in peace time, assuming very good reasons.

[KlavoHunter]

And not without posts that show some of the meaningful effects of said war production levels have on one's economy - yes, even a society of paperclip-maximizer robots would run uncomfortably short of other certain things, in the process of building so many warships...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I probably have damn good reasons to boost production and take the fight to the Karlacks, but in the absence of Shady, I'm not, really.

[KlavoHunter]

@ Simon's PM: Stock Footage?!? In MY STGOD?!?

[Simon_Jester]

THEY SAVED GUYNALD'S BEARD!

[Darkevilme]

Well you know what they say. the Beard maketh the man. It's just more literal this time.

[Simon_Jester]

Oars!

Hmm. Maybe the Elysians should pay a courtesy visit to Canis Arctis, should they ever be passing through the neighborhood.

[White Haven]

Hah! I was hoping you'd catch that. Watch Captain Warlow's blood pressure rise in realtime!

[Tanasinn]

I'm really loving White Haven's posts so far.

[Dark Hellion]

Dark Hellion, could you explain the fact that you've got military construction at 25% of your GDP in your recent expansion post? And that you appear to be, in effect, retconning this in by setting such intensive construction in 3400?

Fellow mods, I'd appreciate your comments on this.

I had always intended to spend the maximum amount on military expansion in this first year. There is no retcon to be done as all of this production is staying home. All my MEH operations have been done with existent pre-3400 military forces. Also, if one reads it, I self-imposed that this level of production was only possible for a little over two years before it completely exhausts supplies. However, I may have misremembered what the maximum production level was. I thought it was 25% but if it is 20% as Fin says I will be happy to edit it down to this.

As for the reasoning, you provided the explanation yourself when you said that the Emissaries were "Paperclip maximizers who want to turn the rest of the galaxy into paperclip maximizers." To do such, the Emissaries would need influence, and military power is the easiest one to gain. You simply build more paperclips.

If you check, even after this level of build-up I would still be behind the Chamarrans in total naval strength. And it would take almost a decade of such build up to catch Steve so it isn't threatening any game imbalance. It is simply going along with the fact that the Emissaries have always been honest about the fact that they are trying to conquer the universe.

The Collectors will be showing up at MEHEarth, running a snatch&grab along with some Lost assets while the Coalition charges into the system.

Will this be announced or will it be your usual show up outta no where style? Because I have claimed A26 which contains earth and I will actually have enough fleet in system (Because CN only has 1 system per sector) to comfortably take down a single monolith. That said I would be happy to give you all of Earth for a reasonable trade (like shoal navigating hyperdrives ) as long as you let me kill that bitch Sasha.

Agreeing with Siege here. It doesn't sit well that warpgates are collossal bombs under any circumstances and sides its cheap. Now granted CN was an arsehole but he's gone and i see no reason to stoop from our usual level of play in order to stomp his nation into the mud with even more ludicrous force.
Plus i think simon wanted orks to try and steal the flagship of the MEH or at least one of their ultraheavies.

As for the MEHSTOMP plan. The Shroom/Dark plan is that our allies will distract the forces at earth while we hit and demolish the fleet at Xena(This is just to make it so that Xena isn't reinforced while we neutralize the fleet, the actual target can be switched around if need be to keep somewhere else busy), once Xena is dealt with the plan was we can move on earth without the Xena fleet going to reinforce it midway through landing procedures. Of course, this plan is liable to go awry when the galaxy's two machine intelligences show up over earth to swipe its mysteries and annihilate its surface respectively...i predict friction there.

I have to echo others sentiments as well. I am bringing an absolutely massive fleet to MEH space in order to minimize casualties through defeat by detail. Others shouldn't get to use a cheap ploy to inflict disproportionate damage. The most interesting RP elements of coalitions come in the fact that disparate factions must work together in war, the highest pressure situation there is. People should have to fight and die to wipe out the MEH and then have to pick up the pieces after all the bloodshed. Because that is the makings of very good drama.

[Master_Baerne]

I'm really loving White Haven's posts so far.

Seconded.

[Shroom Man 777]

I like the Clinical Psychopaths. And, perhaps to do that special procedure wherein they too experience that stuff, they'd probably have to be clinical psychopaths to do what they do.

[Beowulf]

Dark Hellion, could you explain the fact that you've got military construction at 25% of your GDP in your recent expansion post? And that you appear to be, in effect, retconning this in by setting such intensive construction in 3400?

Fellow mods, I'd appreciate your comments on this.

I had always intended to spend the maximum amount on military expansion in this first year. There is no retcon to be done as all of this production is staying home. All my MEH operations have been done with existent pre-3400 military forces. Also, if one reads it, I self-imposed that this level of production was only possible for a little over two years before it completely exhausts supplies. However, I may have misremembered what the maximum production level was. I thought it was 25% but if it is 20% as Fin says I will be happy to edit it down to this.

As for the reasoning, you provided the explanation yourself when you said that the Emissaries were "Paperclip maximizers who want to turn the rest of the galaxy into paperclip maximizers." To do such, the Emissaries would need influence, and military power is the easiest one to gain. You simply build more paperclips.

If you check, even after this level of build-up I would still be behind the Chamarrans in total naval strength. And it would take almost a decade of such build up to catch Steve so it isn't threatening any game imbalance. It is simply going along with the fact that the Emissaries have always been honest about the fact that they are trying to conquer the universe.

The problem is that I don't recall you ever specifying earlier that you intended to spend the max amount on military expansion in the year. So it looks very much like you decided on this course very recently. The fact that MEH operations are being done w/ pre-3400 forces doesn't matter much, since the forces built in this 3400 build order are of sufficient size to be equal to half of what you've said you're sending. And! You're placing the order after 3400 has ended in game! I have no problem with you making this huge order in 3401, but it very much looks like you're trying to back date the order to support a war that you've just decided to join. If you've got proof of these prior intentions, I'd like to see them.

[Shroom Man 777]

Then again, he never did post his 3400 budget until now. So, hurm.

[Dark Hellion]

First, I actually planned this budget out sometime around January. I just never got around to posting it because of school and generally laziness.

Second, I'm not sure why people are acting like this budget is coming out of left-field. I have been clear since day 1 that every Emissary planet is an industrial hellhole that exists solely for the purpose of producing more war machines. In keeping with my fluff I even gave up a lot of starting GDP by lumping bonuses on 3 sectors instead of simply taking the numerous open sectors around me.

As for a story post about it I am not sure what I could really give besides pointless exposition. Slave-drones slave away doing the only thing they are capable of doing? Transports transporting materials from point A to point B?

I am not gaming the system and have said that if 25% is simply forbidden I will scale back to whatever is the allowable maximum. I fully expect that other nations could be concerned if they discover the extent of my military build-up. Hell, that right there is good story fodder. While OoC you know that I can only keep this up til mid 3402 in game you don't. And you can rightly have worries that the Emissaries are just going to keep building until they consume the galaxy. Because in many ways that is exactly our plan, just not on the time scale that most factions are used to working in.

To me this seems like a lot of ado about nothing. I am not poised to strike anyone but the NPC target we have all staked claims on. I am not going to take over as military leader of that quadrant of space, let alone the game. And I am not objecting to people having in-game reactions to it. So, as I see it, it fits my factions fluff, doesn't upset game balance, and presents new RP opportunities. The only problem is if there is a set hard-limit to spending and if there is I have already conceded to scale back to that. So, could someone please lay out what their objections are?