SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Ryan Thunder]

Spain declared neutrality in the conflict. The Mexicans were permitted to move troops through Costa Rica in an agreement made quite a while back. Not like I could really say no, given I only have a few guard units there. Really, if they wanted, they could just march through at anytime, agreement or no agreement.

Then fight them. Christ, what is your problem? You do realize you're now responsible for nearly 30 000 Colombian lives lost in the initial invasion and who knows how many rapes and property theft...

[Thanas]

Spain declared neutrality in the conflict. The Mexicans were permitted to move troops through Costa Rica in an agreement made quite a while back. Not like I could really say no, given I only have a few guard units there. Really, if they wanted, they could just march through at anytime, agreement or no agreement.

Then fight them. Christ, what is your problem?

Yeah, sure, demand of Spain that they bleed and lose their territory (which is pretty much guaranteed in the event of such a war) so you can be safe.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well if you want a purely self-serving reason; Being at war with a canal board member, they can no longer use the canal. I don't think they'll like having to navigate all the way around Chiletina to get to Asia.

[Thanas]

Well if you want a purely self-serving reason; Being at war with a canal board member, they can no longer use the canal. I don't think they'll like having to navigate all the way around Chiletina to get to Asia.

Actually, the rules for the canal board require you get a majority of the canal bord members first to do so. EDIT - never mind, apparently this is automatic.

[Ryan Thunder]

Spain declared neutrality in the conflict. The Mexicans were permitted to move troops through Costa Rica in an agreement made quite a while back. Not like I could really say no, given I only have a few guard units there. Really, if they wanted, they could just march through at anytime, agreement or no agreement.

Then fight them. Christ, what is your problem?

Yeah, sure, demand of Spain that they bleed and lose their territory (which is pretty much guaranteed in the event of such a war) so you can be safe.

I doubt Mexico would not be deterred by Spains refusal to allow them to use their territory. Either they allow the Mexicans through and I take the colony on my way back as repayment for lives lost on their heads, or they refuse and suddenly Mexico has Spain and her allies to deal with as well.

You could've nipped this whole thing in the bud without firing a shot!

[Minister of Pigeonry]

With Mexican troops surging through Costa Rica, do you really think a Division or so of Costa Rican Guard troops could oust them? I only really control Costa Rica thanks to the Mexicans leaving it alone, I'm not going to rock the boat. If you're really going to deny my canal access that will sting a bit, I get alot of raw materials from Cascadia but it isn't devestating and may drive me and, by proxy, my allies closer to the Mexicans.

[Thanas]

Spain has one fucking division in there. How long do you think they would have held out? That would also have utterly wrecked their country as it would become a battlefield.

[Ryan Thunder]

Spain has one fucking division in there. How long do you think they would have held out? That would also have utterly wrecked their country as it would become a battlefield.

They don't have to. The possibility of war with Spain and her allies would be deterrent enough to avoid it altogether, and the canal would not be a warzone at the moment.

[Thanas]

Why? Spain has Germany as her ally and Portugal. Neither can do much against Mexico as they cannot transplant a million troops to Costa Rica - and there is also the Dutch situation, which is keeping me pretty occupied and is costing me a lot of troops.

Please explain to me what Germany and Portugal can do to prevent an invasion by Mexico. Heck, thanks to your dismal fleet, in the advent of a war with mexico Wilkens can pretty much shut down my trade in that region and it would take a long time for the HSF to arrive there.

[Siege]

Irrespective of whether or not the Spanish could've mounted a viable defence of Costa Rica against a Mexican invasion (the answer to which is 'most likely not'), outright allowing the Mexicans to pass through on their merry way to making mighty war on Gran Colombia does in fact constitute a major breach of neutrality according to the Hague Convention. Belligerent armies' men and matériel may not be transported across neutral territory (wounded excepted), and the neutral power is in fact required to intern belligerent troops who reach its territory. So yes, the Spanish actions are grounds for Gran Colombia to declare war on Spain.

[Thanas]

^Not disputing that, just pointing out that Spain may not have had much of a choice in the matter.

[Ryan Thunder]

^Not disputing that, just pointing out that Spain may not have had much of a choice in the matter.

You can crush them in the long run. People seem to forget about that. Together you'd have my armies, your fleets, and Brazil's. It'd be a fucking massacre after a very short period of success, and he knows it.

But fine. We can forget about it.

[Siege]

Well, it's your choice ultimately but I wouldn't simply forget this. It'd set a pretty bad precedent. If the Mexican invasion is repelled (a sizeable 'if' at this stage, I grant you), I'd be annexing Costa Rica if I were Gran Colombia. I mean, the Spanish obviously cannot do anything about it... And hey, the Spanish crown doesn't give a hoot about its sovereignty anyway, 'cause they haven't even so much as sent a politely worded letter of protest to the Mexicans .

[Ryan Thunder]

Well, it's your choice ultimately but I wouldn't simply forget this. It'd set a pretty bad precedent. If the Mexican invasion is repelled (a sizeable 'if' at this stage, I grant you), I'd be annexing Costa Rica if I were Gran Colombia. I mean, the Spanish obviously cannot do anything about it... And hey, they probably won't complain since clearly the Spanish crown doesn't give a hoot about their sovereignty anyway, 'cause they haven't even so much as sent a politely worded letter of protest to the Mexicans .

Yes. I'm still considering how I'd handle it. But I'm not going to spontaneously declare war on the Spanish at this point because I'll only regret it later. Unlike Mexico, it seems.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Well, it's your choice ultimately but I wouldn't simply forget this. It'd set a pretty bad precedent. If the Mexican invasion is repelled (a sizeable 'if' at this stage, I grant you), I'd be annexing Costa Rica if I were Gran Colombia. I mean, the Spanish obviously cannot do anything about it... And hey, they clearly they don't give a hoot about their sovereignty anyway, 'cause the Spanish crown hasn't even so much as sent a politely worded condemnation to the Mexicans.

We did declare neutrality and offered guarantees that Spanish ships, etc. would avoid all conflict zones. Save for the agreement with Mexico permitting their transit through CR, Spain has offered nothing more.

I have no interest in conflict with either Mexico or Colombia, my aim is only to secure Costa Rica and seize the Dutch Caribbean holdings.

[Steve]

Under normal circumstances this Saturday would be the start of October 1925 and Q4 for the year, but as we have conflicts from late June, July, and August that need processing, I'm going to announce a time freeze. It's only August and will stay so until we catch these conflicts up.

My thanks again to Siege for taking up the mantle of the Low Countries when I know he'd rather be playing Egyptian politics and stuff.

[Steve]

Akhlut, Bluewolf has left the game, so Qing China is an NPC.

What do you mean by acquiring a port? As it stands you probably import and export via Chinese and Soviet railroads, but I doubt they'll sell you a port under any cost.

[Coyote]

Crap, we're already entering Q4? I didn't even realize we were into Q3. Thanas, do I have my second ship, then? Or are you hanging onto it for the duration of the Dutch situation?


Also, Ryan, it seems to me that your outrage of Spain's stance vis-a-vis the Mexican invasion would be excellent plot fodder in-game. You know, just sayin'. I mean, I could see France for example, in 1940, wanting to know why those damn Dutch and Belgians didn't throw themselves in front of the Wehrmacht's treads and stuff. You have a point, really, about Spanish complicity, but Spain also has a point about "WTF can I really do about it that isn't suicide?" Make a stink in character.

Sad that most of the potentially interesting politics is talking place OOC.

[Norseman]

By the way you lot on what date was the Mexican ultimatum delivered? I need to know because that triggered some contingency plans of mine own and I need to know when they went into motion.

[Akhlut]

Akhlut, Bluewolf has left the game, so Qing China is an NPC.

What do you mean by acquiring a port? As it stands you probably import and export via Chinese and Soviet railroads, but I doubt they'll sell you a port under any cost.

I thought he was still in. Oh well.

At anyrate, he sent me a PM that said the following:

Well I have posted my status of Manchuria and my status with Mongolia.

As said I don't want to get into a war but I am not willing to let you two land grab Manchuria. So I ask if we could come to a peaceful solution weather it be buying land or some form of port rent. I will even make it worth your while if you do go with that.

Bluewolf.

Since I didn't go on a mad invasion of Manchuria, I'd say that I'd lived up to that end of this, at least.

[Siege]

We did declare neutrality and offered guarantees that Spanish ships, etc. would avoid all conflict zones. Save for the agreement with Mexico permitting their transit through CR, Spain has offered nothing more.

This really doesn't matter. You can't declare neutrality and then grant Mexican troops passage on their way to the war. That's having your cake and eat it too: you're either neutral or you're not, and when you're allowing belligerent troops to march over your sovereign territory then you're clearly not neutral. As I understand it your actions make you a belligerent too, by virtue of materially aiding and abetting one of the aggressors in direct violation of your declared neutrality. Incidentally unless I'm sorely mistaken that last bit should be a pretty damn big deal in interbellum politics.

Amusingly, if you'd not given permission and shot at any Mexicans attempting to cross your sovereign territory you would still be neutral (as per Chapt. I, Art. 10. of the Hague Convention of 1907). Of course that means you'd probably have lost Costa Rica to the Mexicans but hey, ya wanna be neutral, ya gotta make sacrifices!

[Lascaris]

Spain declared neutrality in the conflict. The Mexicans were permitted to move troops through Costa Rica in an agreement made quite a while back. Not like I could really say no, given I only have a few guard units there. Really, if they wanted, they could just march through at anytime, agreement or no agreement.

Then fight them. Christ, what is your problem?

Yeah, sure, demand of Spain that they bleed and lose their territory (which is pretty much guaranteed in the event of such a war) so you can be safe.

Well if Spain can't protect the neutrality of its territory Colombia has every right to enter it too in response to Mexico doing so...

[Minister of Pigeonry]

This really doesn't matter. You can't declare neutrality and then grant Mexican troops passage on their way to the war. That's having your cake and eat it too: you're either neutral or you're not, and when you're allowing belligerent troops to march over your sovereign territory then you're clearly not neutral. As I understand it your actions make you a belligerent, materially aiding and abetting one of the aggressors in direct violation of your declared neutrality. Which unless I'm sorely mistaken should be a pretty damn big deal in interbellum politics.

Amusingly, if you'd not given permission and shot at any Mexicans attempting to cross your sovereign territory you would still be neutral (as per Chapt. I, Art. 10. of the Hague Convention of 1907). Of course that means you'd probably have lost Costa Rica to the Mexicans but hey, ya wanna be neutral, ya gotta make sacrifices!

The agreement was decided upon sometime before Mexico hinted it intended to attack Colombia so, damned if you do, damned if you don't, I suppose. Either way, if shots are fired they will be Colombian, I'm not going to provoke them or threaten them. If they wish to use the Spanish-Mexican agreement as justification they have a right to attack and accept any consequences that might follow.

[Steve]

For Norade's Suriname attack:

[17:12] sbbigsteve: So, 9 for a completely successful crossing. 3-5 is failure, 6-8 is minor success - some footholds but they're bottled up.- 9-12 for general success, 13-16 for outstanding success, 17 and 18 has the Dutch forces utterly routed and Suriname wide open for conquest.
[17:12] sbbigsteve: //roll-dice 3-sided 6
[17:12] sbbigsteve: sbbigsteve rolled 3 6-sided dice: 4 1 4
[17:13] sbbigsteve: General success.

Rogue and I were there, Norse and Lascaris witnessed.


Rogue should be PMing Thanas and Siege results now as well.

[Lascaris]

Meanwhile....
Chilitina's military was quietly ecoming more prepared for a fight, if neccesary. Army units along the Northern Border were upgrading their state of alert after Spain had pgraded its alert status. As far as most were concerned it was a routine measure to reasure Chilitina's new ally.

The fleet was positively a secret hub of activity though. A security clampdown at naval facilities had been followed by orders to ready as many warships as possible to go to sea. Cruisers, submarines and some destroyers had already been dispatched on more patrols than usual since the "Brazilian incident." Many sailors now guessed whatever was coming was why they had been spending weeks overhauling their ships and getting as many as possible ready for action no matter what the regular maintenance timetables said. The rumors flying around the bunk rooms were many and varied. Perhaps they were going to get the Brazilians back for their little stunt during the freedom conference? Others said it was only a giant drill. Maybe it had something to do with the German and spanish fleets leaving port? No one really knew yet.

Shortly after Uruguay went to RedCon Orange.

Somehow I can't find this in the story thread so will treat it as one more DISNA's success