SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread IV

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hey Siege, if you launch the thing, can we has access to flight data? FASTA wants to use the eagle for future permanent moon presence programs...

We will have to hope the game lasts for 20 months.

But do we want to speed the game up?

[K. A. Pital]

Do we really need to measure our nuclear sticks?

Yes, it's possible to boost up production of crude low-yield nuclear bombs and make hundreds of them; yes, it's also possible to boost up production of (far less) crude thermo-nuclear bombs (which is what the CSR is doing as a strategy) and make hundreds of them.

But shipping 500 nukes to something that amounts to a Puerto Rico or French Algeria? Who the hell in their sane mind would do something like that?

[Coyote]

Coyote, at a mere 20 tonnes, the Eagle isn't going anywhere out of Earth orbit. It's really meagre, and even with supercool ultraefficient ion thrusters, it won't be making interplanetary trips in a reasonable amount of time

Eh, I don't know what makes a realistic spaceship. Ask me about Star Destroyers and the Enterprise, sure, but trying to make a realistic-sounding spaceship? Bah. What would something like that realistically weigh? 40 or more tons, without extensive shielding or amentities? It's supposed to be about the length of the modern Space Shuttle, just without the wings...

Oh, and it's propulsion is supposed to be a nuclear rocket. Chemical rockets for close-in maneuvering, ion for long-term course corrections.

Ah, shit, I guess the damn nuclear rocket, with shielding, would easily be 20 tons by itself. I was thinking pure susperstructure and forgot that the drives will weigh an assload. Fuck.

This is why Coyote doesn't work for NASA in real life.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Do we really need to measure our nuclear sticks?

Yes, it's possible to boost up production of crude low-yield nuclear bombs and make hundreds of them; yes, it's also possible to boost up production of (far less) crude thermo-nuclear bombs (which is what the CSR is doing as a strategy) and make hundreds of them.

But shipping 500 nukes to something that amounts to a Puerto Rico or French Algeria? Who the hell in their sane mind would do something like that?

Do we need to verify that the miniaturised design works? Otherwise, I'm cool with assuming the miniaturised weapons work.

Or do we not have them?

Eh, I don't know what makes a realistic spaceship. Ask me about Star Destroyers and the Enterprise, sure, but trying to make a realistic-sounding spaceship? Bah. What would something like that realistically weigh? 40 or more tons, without extensive shielding or amentities? It's supposed to be about the length of the modern Space Shuttle, just without the wings...

Oh, and it's propulsion is supposed to be a nuclear rocket. Chemical rockets for close-in maneuvering, ion for long-term course corrections.

Ah, shit, I guess the damn nuclear rocket, with shielding, would easily be 20 tons by itself. I was thinking pure susperstructure and forgot that the drives will weigh an assload. Fuck.

This is why Coyote doesn't work for NASA in real life.

Hmm.. you'd need a huge Energia II or a larger Ares to get that moving into orbit.

[K. A. Pital]

No, I'm fine with testing nuclear weapons (in fact, I presume we are exploding them routinely on Novaya Zemlya). I just don't see the need to announce every nuke test. After all, so what? If you announce one, that's for a purpose, you report something new or you threaten someone with it.

ANd of course Czech exploding Beowulf's nukes on his own will isn't a cool situation. Now that's been rectified, but I'll keep a closer eye on Beowulf's dealings in Frequesque.

[Siege]

I was serious. The idea was to launch the shuttle Buran up to space with 1-2 of these space planes in the cargo hold. The Buran will act as a mothership to the two space planes, while the space planes go into weapon drop positions.

That's a fine idea, but that requires the kind of lift that simply doesn't exist yet. In the meantime, I'll have a nice small powered shuttle ideally suited for satellite maintenance and so on, apart from all the obvious military applications. And whilst you struggle to build ginormous rockets, me and Shroom will be working on SSTO turboscramrocketplanes .

Hey Siege, if you launch the thing, can we has access to flight data? FASTA wants to use the eagle for future permanent moon presence programs...

I don't see why not, we've always merrily contributed to and cooperated with FASTA, so we'd be perfectly happy to supply you with all the data you need.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

That's a fine idea, but that requires the kind of lift that simply doesn't exist yet. In the meantime, I'll have a nice small powered shuttle ideally suited for satellite maintenance and so on, apart from all the obvious military applications. And whilst you struggle to build ginormous rockets, me and Shroom will be working on SSTO turboscramrocketplanes .

Well, the first steps for that are being made. Technology for the Saturn V was reused here and there, especially the J-2 rocket engines.

And er.. SSTO rocket planes? In RL, those were merely test beds and they didn't go very far.

And also, that space plane puts a limit on the size of the satellite to maintain, because you can't install a huge arm like the one in the Shuttle.

[Shroom Man 777]

Start small... and then make HUEG! The flowing blood causes an engorgement of what was once small, and thus an erection of great things.

[PeZook]

Eh, I don't know what makes a realistic spaceship. Ask me about Star Destroyers and the Enterprise, sure, but trying to make a realistic-sounding spaceship? Bah. What would something like that realistically weigh? 40 or more tons, without extensive shielding or amentities? It's supposed to be about the length of the modern Space Shuttle, just without the wings...

40 tonnes would put this thing on the mass order of the Apollo CSM. And that was a dinky little spaceship, with barely enough space and supplies to support three people for ten days. The CSM weighed 30 tonnes, and the lunar lander an additional 15.

If I was to ballpark the Eagle, with its nuclear rocket and 4 person habitation module, it could easily be 30 tonnes for the reactor and fuel, 10-15 superstructure and and extra 20 for the life support supplies and living space. Deep space shielding on top of that.

Of course, a nuke rocket gives it pretty good endurance, so while getting an Eagle up will require a Saturn-class rocket, once there it can more than pay for its launch (especially since launching from our moon is ridiculously easy).

EDIT: On speeding up the game, we should do that if activity drops, so that I can at least get to the moon landing part

EDIT2: And yeah, the space shuttle is 112 tonnes fully fuelled. It can also support 7 people for a month, and 20 tonnes of that is the payload. It's a good ballpark.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

My personal opinion would be to strap the spacecraft onto an Energia launcher and fire it to space. The reason being that we don't have to work on figuring out how to squeeze the space craft into a cylinder and then pack it well inside, and figure out a mechanism to release the space craft into space.

Now, I have already started work on the RD-170 rocket and tested an early prototype, along with the J-2 engine. In.. 5-10 game years we might have an Energia booster, but again, do we want to wait for 10 bloody months for that?

[PeZook]

My personal opinion would be to strap the spacecraft onto an Energia launcher and fire it to space. The reason being that we don't have to work on figuring out how to squeeze the space craft into a cylinder and then pack it well inside, and figure out a mechanism to release the space craft into space.

It's not that easy. You can't just strap an arbitrary payload to the side of the booster, since it upsets the mass distribution and you have to balance the rocket every time you change payload mass (it's off-center by definition).

While you still have to do that with a top-mounted payload, it's far, far easier since the centers of mass are aligned.

As for mechanism for releasing the payload, well...you still need to separate the thing from the rocket

Now, I have already started work on the RD-170 rocket and tested an early prototype, along with the J-2 engine. In.. 5-10 game years we might have an Energia booster, but again, do we want to wait for 10 bloody months for that?

I'm okay with speeding up the game, but others may not be. Anyway, we can do a lot with the lighter Saturn V booster while waiting for the Energia-Vulkan.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It's not that easy. You can't just strap an arbitrary payload to the side of the booster, since it upsets the mass distribution and you have to balance the rocket every time you change payload mass (it's off-center by definition).

While you still have to do that with a top-mounted payload, it's far, far easier since the centers of mass are aligned.

That won't work. The spacecraft isn't aerodynamic. You will introduce too much drag, and drag proportional to the square of the speed (or worse), and you exert uneven forces on the top of the rocket. Maybe we should refine the design to be more aerodynamic. In the time it takes the rocket to get ready, we could retool the design.

And in any case, I would point out that the Shuttle wasn't as "nicely distributed in Mass", what with the rocket engines at the bottom and fuel right above it.

As for mechanism for releasing the payload, well...you still need to separate the thing from the rocket

Not so simple if you put the spacecraft inside the rocket, which was what I was thinking. There will be volume issues to be dealt with.

I'm okay with speeding up the game, but others may not be. Anyway, we can do a lot with the lighter Saturn V booster while waiting for the Energia-Vulkan.

I think we have to sit back and ask ourselves what do we want to achieve in the game.

[Coyote]

I put it at 80 tons, since it doesn't have the wings, so it'll be less than the Shuttle. But it is supposed to be pretty versatile and carry a lot of potential cargo, and it has that funky new magnetic-field shielding for solar radiation, so I figure 80 works well enough.

We could probably launch it piggy-back style, like the Shuttle, with a cluster of smaller rockets strapped to a fuel tank, or in two parts on a yet-to-be-made Saturn type.

[Coyote]

That won't work. The spacecraft isn't aerodynamic. You will introduce too much drag, and drag proportional to the square of the speed (or worse), and you exert uneven forces on the top of the rocket. Maybe we should refine the design to be more aerodynamic. In the time it takes the rocket to get ready, we could retool the design.

And in any case, I would point out that the Shuttle wasn't as "nicely distributed in Mass", what with the rocket engines at the bottom and fuel right above it.

For aerodynamics, can we have a disposable skin stratched over it?

I think we have to sit back and ask ourselves what do we want to achieve in the game.

The space shot is but one thing I want to get into, we still have a lot of other cool stuff that can be done. Is the Rage Virus still out there? Veleria and post-war Astaria has possibilities...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

For aerodynamics, can we have a disposable skin stratched over it?

That did occur to me. But I was unsure about the integrity, and it introduces other mechanical problems. Which was why I suggested initially to squeeze the spacecraft into the top part of the rocket, and apply some... thing to cushion the spacecraft on the way up.

But... it can be done yes.

With enough work, money, blood, sweat...

Alternatively, reworking the aircraft will at least allow it to return to earth though.

The space shot is but one thing I want to get into, we still have a lot of other cool stuff that can be done. Is the Rage Virus still out there? Veleria and post-war Astaria has possibilities...

Hmm... true. The only thing is whether all of us will have the interest to keep us going for the next 2 years before we dump a space installation on the surface of the moon.

[PeZook]

That won't work. The spacecraft isn't aerodynamic. You will introduce too much drag, and drag proportional to the square of the speed (or worse), and you exert uneven forces on the top of the rocket. Maybe we should refine the design to be more aerodynamic. In the time it takes the rocket to get ready, we could retool the design.

It would obviously need a simple pair of fitting aerodynamic panels to cover it during ascent. Seriously, dude: the Saturn V launched the CSM-LM stack with little trouble, all it needed were some adapter panels, and the LM is about as un-aerodynamic as they come

And in any case, I would point out that the Shuttle wasn't as "nicely distributed in Mass", what with the rocket engines at the bottom and fuel right above it.

The Shuttle is assymetric, yeah, and it's obviously not impossible to strap a payload to the side of the booster. It's just that it's generally safer and easier to put it on top as long as it can fit.

Not so simple if you put the spacecraft inside the rocket, which was what I was thinking. There will be volume issues to be dealt with.

Why not so simple? It's the same basic mechanism, with explosive bolts separating the payload. If you stick the thing on top, it would just need to open the booster protective covers in addition.

I think we have to sit back and ask ourselves what do we want to achieve in the game.

Personally, I'd like to stick around for vision of the near future to take effect, and then be able to sit back and backread the entire thread

[K. A. Pital]

First of all the Buran can have much more space "interceptors" or "bombers" inside it depending on interceptor/bomber size.

Next, the real future of space exploration lies with stuff ike Orion ships, and thank Q we have no "Partial Test Ban treaty", "exoatmospheric test ban treaty" and the like.

[Siege]

I just spent nearly four months patiently building up my space program until I got to this point, I'm really quite unwilling to speed things up now just because people haven't got the patience to get to where they want to go. Vaguely accelerating feasible tech development, sure, I can live with that, but not wholesale accelerating of the game.

[DarthShady]

Mangs...rocket science...Mangs. *head explodes*

You guys are awesome.

[PeZook]

Mangs...rocket science...Mangs. *head explodes*

You guys are awesome.

If you think our off-the-cuff mass estimates and memorization of rocket symbols is actual rocket science, you'd combust when faced with the real stuff

[DarthShady]

Mangs...rocket science...Mangs. *head explodes*

You guys are awesome.

If you think our off-the-cuff mass estimates and memorization of rocket symbols is actual rocket science, you'd combust when faced with the real stuff

Indeed I would.

But seriously, even that takes some effort and I'm impressed.

[Karmic Knight]

EDIT: WHAT manner? Karmic was basically trying to get the FTO to rally against Beo and I, I did something to deter that, and this is suddenly me being a loose cannon? wtf man?

You realize I said my piece IN THE AFSR as I was lobbying for AFSR support of entrance into the FTO through providing economic support, and if my plans pan out the Commonwealth though that is a different matter.

So, while lobbying, King Brandon say something that mentions your state as something that has to be ignored in terms of strategic defence talks, how do you construe that as a call to arms?

PPS: You may consider the official San Doradan response to this situation to be something akin to "wait, what?" We were busy doing other stuff, and as far as we're concerned, the FTO shrugs and rolls its eyes at this petty display of dickwaving.

About that, I'm about to call for a conference to decide on how the FTO can help out the AFSR, so don't ignore the whole of what I was saying.

PPPS: And San Dorado has always considered Tian Jiao to be a bunch of ungrateful bastards anyway. We helped them out during the PRSF-Westchestrian war, got into a stand-off with the CSR because of it, and in return they've been nothing but a major pain in the ass. We should've let the CSR waste that place (Stas, if it's any use, you may assume our ambassador in Stasograd has told you as much), so frankly we'd be cheering all the way to the bank if the Huang Di kicks the ass of that prick of a governor.

Now, what was I saying from the beginning, let both of them waste each other and then pick up with the winner. Not looking like such a bad idea, huh?

Stas, if there is anything I can do for you in terms of holding on to nukes for you, please, let me know.

Lonestar, So no, Gizmonic Air can't join the Mach 3+ Freighter team?

[Lonestar]

Honestly, the program size is spinning out of control, to JSF proportions. I think chain-of-command agreements will have to be made as we bring more and more people on.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It would obviously need a simple pair of fitting aerodynamic panels to cover it during ascent. Seriously, dude: the Saturn V launched the CSM-LM stack with little trouble, all it needed were some adapter panels, and the LM is about as un-aerodynamic as they come

Well, I would point out that there was a pointed tip on the tip of the rocket probably to deal with airflow, and aside from a small gap, the rest of the rocet was "smooth".

There is no objection to fitting aerodynamic panels, but I would prefer to cut down on the number of moving parts. Also, the large size of the moving part (and the number) will increase the chances of possible failure. As I said, we probably out to encase the lander in a cushioned cylinder or something, then launch it.

Why not so simple? It's the same basic mechanism, with explosive bolts separating the payload. If you stick the thing on top, it would just need to open the booster protective covers in addition.

You have to cushion the lander. The rocket experiences a force near equal to the thrust. Newton's 3rd law? I don't see problems, just that any extra part increases the probability of problems arising.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hey, Air MacMillan can totally work on the Mach 3 bird by designing all those creature comforts, from the super-awesome seats with auto-massage functions and the flat-screen Shroom-Definition telescreens, to the stratellite intertube uplinks, to the awesome supersonic toilet bowls, to the various food storage thinggies, and all sorts of fun stuff!


EDIT:

Can't you cut your Moon Eagle Ship to two pieces, launch each piece into space, and then connect both pieces in space?