2014 STGOD OOC Commentary Thread 1

[Steve]

*nod*

So, aside from Rogue, anyone else like my showing of Tellis' internets?

[Thanas]

I liked it but did not get a lot of the references.

[Steve]

Not so much references, just imagining how idiots would behave.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Ok, that was amusing

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ok that internet commentthread was pretty hilarious.

Also, Siege, that's a very thoughtful gift from Helix Industries.

I find it amusing that everyone IC is whining about no trial when they publicly confessed. Under Orion law if a confession is freely given no trial is required and sentence may be passed immediately. Coudl it have been done in private? Yes. Would that have been better? Probably. But the King had recently lost three thousand of his subjects in a day, and could have lost tens of thousands more. A message was needed.

Not that I'm complaining, I think it's great fun to deal with all this stuff.

[Esquire]

Yes, because confessions are always 100% reliable and have never been accidental, coerced, or simply fabricated. That's why torture is still a valid method for obtaining evidence in real, honest courtrooms*.

That's the thing Apelia was complaining about - not the execution, the summary.

*Secret CIA courts are neither.

[Eternal_Freedom]

They were pretty open about it. And we don't torture prisoners, since, as you say, it's ineffective. It was the terrorists plan to proudly confess and drag things out in appeals for years to continue spreading their bullshit gospel. They underestimated Alexander.

[Simon_Jester]

Nevertheless... the truthers are gonna have a field day. Sure, the Orion government may say it didn't torture (or threaten) them, but how are they ever going to prove it now that the prisoners are dead and cannot contest their statements?

...

By the way, I mean Steve no particular ill will in putting the loony in Cascadia. But the show is, obviously, a parody of Coast to Coast AM.

And since there is explicitly a 'Nevada' in Cascadia, and it's inspired by the American West, and since Art Bell was based out of Nevada for a long time... it seemed fair.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh joy, the conspiracy theories have arrived. I suppose it was only a matter of time.

At any rate, since we caught them in the act, with illegal weapons to boot, we had enough evidence to have them shot even without the confessions.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not even disputing that. The point is not that you had the evidence, or even that you acted wrongly as such. I'm not saying it's wrong to shoot mass murderers as such.


The point is that by bypassing due process, you create a mountain of doubt as to the legitimacy and honesty of your own actions. It would be child's play for any government to stage a scene like the scene in Alexander II's palace gardens, complete with coerced terrorists to confess, or even fake body doubles coerced into confessing.

And the people who spoke that confession are now dead. So no one can effectively investigate their side of the story. Which would in turn make it child's play for the Orion government to cover up any coercion it used to extract the confessions. Or any question of whether or not the "terrorist leaders" it captured were in fact guilty. Or even whether the people Alexander II shot ARE the "terrorist leaders" claims to have captured and arrested for the 1/3 bombings.

So as conspiracy theories go, the "the Orions shot innocent people" and "the whole thing was a false flag operation and the Orions shot the key witnesses so no one could reveal their complicity in the attacks" are actually pretty credible.

Because the Orion government behaved exactly the way you'd expect from, say, a fascist dictatorship attempting to stage-manage its own Reichstag Fire.

Out-of-universe, we know (or at least can safely assume) that Alexander II did in fact execute the real leaders of a real terrorist organization who really did kill about three thousand people in a string of truck bombings.

In-universe... plenty of people will accept the Orions' narrative (which happens to be more or less true). But thanks to Alexander II's actions, his decision to literally take on the combined roles of judge, jury, executioner, and court of appeals... There is not and can never be enough evidence of the Orion government's official line to satisfy the suspicious.

EDIT:
I guess what I'm getting at, and this ties into your actions in the submarine encounter, is that big, dramatic, 'gutsy' actions have big, dramatic consequences. Sometimes there's blowback.

And also, there are a lot of reasons why most countries have a slow-turning judicial system with a concept of formalized due process. It's not just because they don't have the guts to 'do what's right' and 'punish the guilty.'

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair points. Stil, as far as Orion is concerned, we followed due process (according to our laws anyway) and we did indeed execute the right people. If other people around Tellus want to doubt that and rant and rave they can go right on doing it, Orion really couldn't care what a bunch of insane truthers think.

Incidentally, can we please not refer to it as the 1/3 bombings? IC, Orion feels such nomenclature trivializies such an atrocity. We prefer to refer to it as "The Hephaestus bombings/attacks" since that's where it happened. "1/3 bombings" could have happened anywhere. Of course, feel free to have the crazies and conspiracy theories use such nomenclature, but I'd appreciate it if it wasn't officially accepted.

EDIT: I'll be writing up a story post tomorrow where the government releases the transcripts of the interrogations and the video recordings of the same, in the interest of transparency and all that. And yeah, I get your points about this and the submarine stuff. Yeah, there are consequences. Orion will deal with those as they come.

[Simon_Jester]

You may become more concerned if national governments, or citizens of your own country, start to believe the conspiracy theories, which given that they're actually pretty plausible this time they might.

I would bet money that within a few months, a double digit percentage of the Orion population is going to be wondering if their government is telling the truth about the bombings.

Do you guys have elections?


And regarding the name of the bombings, I won't the disliked name anymore. It may get alternate names (like "the Serenade bombings" because those were the most high-profile target), but I have no actual wish to disrespect the (fictional) victims or your wishes in the matter.

The only reason I started using it is because there is a direct analogy to 9/11 trutherism... except that here the truthers actually have good cause to be suspicious, even if it happens that they're objectively incorrect for reasons they cannot possibly know or be convinced of.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah we have elections to the Senate every five years. And that's a good point about people starting to doubt things, brings up some interesting story possibilities later.

As for naming, like I said, let the crazies/conspiracy theorists use 1/3, but I tihnk that "TheHephaestus Bombings" or "The Serenade Tower Bombings " will be the "official" name. I do like the parallels though and strongly encourage you to continue developing this truther storyline. Feel free to PM me with ideas and stuff if you have any more.

[Steve]

The Law of Unintended Consequence strikes!

[Simon_Jester]

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4#p3849074

Just for the record, gentlemen: Champa is a real country with an army. They may not be first or even second-rate in terms of heavy metal or shiny toys, and it might cost them casualties, but they're more than up to drowning these bozos in rifle fire.

Not saying you don't know that, but I want to make sure everyone is aware and reminded. Some of us have gotten a bit cavalier about respecting the viability and competence of his country.

Maddoctor's unfortunate lack of posts may make us forget, but Champa is what we might informally call a "real country" with a government that exists for purposes other than collecting bribes, meaningful transport and communication infrastructure, an analogue to FEMA and the Corps of Engineers in the form of the "Land Corps..." and according to maddoctor, roughly the same per capita GDP as nearby Umeria. Or, to give real life analogues, Iran or Brazil. Not Somalia or the Congo.

If this happened in Umeria, you can be damn sure the local prefect would be whistling up enough army units to expel Lagap and friends at the bayonet in short order. Even if they somehow managed to bounce the local garrison battalion, larger cans of whoop-ass would be waiting in the wings.

[Honestly, he's made Champa rich enough that the Bangladesh comparison starts breaking down, if you ask me, as noted the per capita GDP he's working from is more in line with Iran and Brazil than with India or Bangladesh. But that's his choice to make.]

[Siege]

I agree. As far as I'm concerned the viability of a total bandit takeover of a large town is doubtful to say the least, that's why I didn't comment on the precise scale and only killed five guys. The rest is just a pitch of 'hey we can solve this issue for you' irregardless of Champa's native capabilities (considering the situation quite a lot of Champan troops will be in the general area, but they might be tied up doing more important things).

[Steve]

I was thinking it was a village of a few hundred people waaaaaay out in the boonies, with limited means of land egress and lots of jungle that the bandits could use to try and escape before the hammer came down. I actually figured it'd end with Champan troops coming in via helo and cleaning house if Paran and his gang stayed around too long. I suspect my wording of his dialogue made it sound like he was envisioning some long-term control instead of "this village is under my immediate control for a day or so, let's squeeze the refugees and townsfolk for as much as we can before the army shows up". And only because they had the guns to grab the air-dropped Klavostani food as part of the Law Of Unintented Consequences.

[Simon_Jester]

OK, just saying.

Honestly, while it's hardly our fault, I just worry a bit much that we're romping around Maddoctor's country, artistically speaking, without consulting him. It's hard to avoid under the circumstances, but I wanted to make sure someone stuck up for him before everyone started acting like Champa was a failed state.

[KlavoHunter]

*Shrug*

I already accounted for that hungry people with guns would go about shooting, looting, and raping.

I really don't feel bad in the slightest for dropping aid that isn't then handed out by the lily-white hands of Cascadian college students in an organized, controlled fashion.

Clearly this is just more proof that Champa needs communism.

[Steve]

Actually, most food aid we're sending in is being handed out to Champan authorities to dole out, but the Peace Corps was acting independently with their own caches of supplies.

BTW, you did note that the Cascadian present was First Nation, right?

And what's wrong with fair doling out of food to everyone over just dropping it and letting whoever is there first grab it and decide who gets what? Or cause things like food riots as people fight over it?

[madd0ct0r]

Haha! Internet is working on phone again!

No worries about the bandit, I've been looking for a way to bring hakistan into it, and that guy ain't from umeria.

Champ is half way between Bangladesh and Holland, or if you'd prefer, Bangladesh in 30years time. So comparison with Iran or Egypt (Nile delta) are not bad.

To be, explicit, I don't mind people writing that sort of thing up, but refugees eating grass is a bit extreme. This is a country with major cyclone issues, refugees are one of the few things they can do.

For raanapa, assume coastal border with hakistan, a small center for a fishing village upstream some miles having to cope with a small town moving out of the zone and the fishermen not being allowed out sine the river clips the zone and the plume is still being mapped

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

More aid arriving...

[Steve]

Hey, that works.

[KlavoHunter]

To be, explicit, I don't mind people writing that sort of thing up, but refugees eating grass is a bit extreme. This is a country with major cyclone issues, refugees are one of the few things they can do.

I suppose I did exaggerate by saying they were eating grass. More likely they're pulling up every edible flower and weed they can find instead.


Steve, Simon - I do want to make sure you two don't get -too- enthusiastic with slapping down people's posts with "And here's why you're hilariously wrong" - Orion's player has been getting particularly hammered with that, and now that I've had a taste, I don't want this game to become a constant series of "Gotchas" where less-than-perfectly-thought-out posts become a bludgeon to relentlessly use on their posters.



Also, I consider it Fucking Hilarious that a Fusoan got shot indirectly because of me.

[Steve]

Eh, I wouldn't have done it like that if it were something vitally important to your country, as opposed to a feel-good propaganda measure that had an apparently unintended consequence.

After all... maybe your planners figured something like that would happen, but that it would show the inability of the corrupt bourgeoisie government of Champa to deal with bandits attacking the people, thus laying another brick in the road to socialism in Champa!