SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Norseman]

You'd need around a half an hour to lift your MiG-31 fighters in the air if they are not already alerted (and they were not, since the only thing piercing the AEW&C were MiG-31Ms for the time being). And other fighters as well require time to rise, if they are not already in-air. Depending on how many airstrips you had, you could've lifted 10 to 30 fighters overall in 10 minutes, and half that in 5 minutes after the initial AEW&C was shot down by KS-172.

Given that any airplane at all appearing near Astaria is bound to be the spearhead of a massive attack force, and that only a moron would believe otherwise, the entire airforce would be scrambled the moment any contact is made. Maybe if some other powers had made a habit out of launching SR-71s in the area, or U-2s or something then the case would be different. As it is Foreign Airplane = Armageddon alert.

Astarian Navy, just where the HELL are all those ships, tell me Norseman? Are they around Veleria? Assembled into taskforces and roaming the seas? Or lonely? Defending coast?

I would guess that whatever part of the navy is not submarines (the only part actually taken seriously by the powers that be), and not in harbour, entering harbour, or leaving harbour, would be patrolling the South Velarian coast. In the main its seen as a coast guard sort of organisation, stopping smugglers, attacking pirates, and generally maintaining coastal order. Its OoB and deployment scheme would reflect this.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

In that case I need someone with official relations with Astaria to mediate. My nation has none, and even if it planned to send a token diplomatic mission in the form of "consulate", it no longer does.

Also, I have already "withdrawn" the sword. The only thing we can determine is the point at which the bombers turned away, and what the losses inflicted on Norseman and my forces were.

Well, I have an Astarian embassy in Constantinople. Have your local ambassador waltz in to drop a letter.

[Norseman]

Once more as was the case with the "Star of Sweethaven" incident I fail to see that there is anything to mediate between the two nations. Astaria is already doing its best to close down the Velarian slave trade, a task made harder without several of its ships. Beyond that what is there to talk about?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Once more as was the case with the "Star of Sweethaven" incident I fail to see that there is anything to mediate between the two nations. Astaria is already doing its best to close down the Velarian slave trade, a task made harder without several of its ships. Beyond that what is there to talk about?

Well, we could at least talk about preventing future incidents such as this, and get some aid in return to deal with the problem.

[Beowulf]

It's highly unlikely you'd have the entire airforce on 5 minute alert in times of peace. It's expensive, it's bad for morale, it's bad for overall readiness (if the plane is down for maintence, it's no longer capable of being on alert). You're unlikely to get better than a quarter of your airforce on 5 minute alert. Might be able to get up to half up before the airfields are hit.

[Norseman]

Once more as was the case with the "Star of Sweethaven" incident I fail to see that there is anything to mediate between the two nations. Astaria is already doing its best to close down the Velarian slave trade, a task made harder without several of its ships. Beyond that what is there to talk about?

Well, we could at least talk about preventing future incidents such as this, and get some aid in return to deal with the problem.

Here's a way to prevent future incidents such as this: Stop bombing people for the actions of criminals. I mean bloody hell even the British and Americans during the height of Imperialism, when dealing with some shithole like Morocco or Zanzibar, would at least have the common decency to say "Return our citizens unharmed or face the consequences." Instead of opening fire.

As for aid I'll repeat myself: Astaria, and the fairly big Astarian secret police, is already doing what it can both within and (as you'll soon see) occasionally outside the law to curb the problem. The navy spends most of its time trying to crack down on the trade, and even a few missing persons cases is enough to gain the personal attention of the Regent and the Supreme Commander of BoSS.

There is nothing more that can conceivably be done, at least if you want to respect the niceties of the Constitution.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Here's a way to prevent future incidents such as this: Stop bombing people for the actions of criminals. I mean bloody hell even the British and Americans during the height of Imperialism, when dealing with some shithole like Morocco or Zanzibar, would at least have the common decency to say "Return our citizens unharmed or face the consequences." Instead of opening fire.

As for aid I'll repeat myself: Astaria, and the fairly big Astarian secret police, is already doing what it can both within and (as you'll soon see) occasionally outside the law to curb the problem. The navy spends most of its time trying to crack down on the trade, and even a few missing persons cases is enough to gain the personal attention of the Regent and the Supreme Commander of BoSS.

There is nothing more that can conceivably be done, at least if you want to respect the niceties of the Constitution.

Where's your police force in all this? How is your constitution worded with regard to Slavery?

[Norseman]

It's highly unlikely you'd have the entire airforce on 5 minute alert in times of peace. It's expensive, it's bad for morale, it's bad for overall readiness (if the plane is down for maintence, it's no longer capable of being on alert). You're unlikely to get better than a quarter of your airforce on 5 minute alert. Might be able to get up to half up before the airfields are hit.

All true, but on the other hand the scenario we've been expecting is this: A sudden surprise attack, possibly without any warning, with a few high and fast fighter penetrating our defences, followed by massive bomber spam. With that in mind any incursion would trigger a rapid scrambling of whatever could fly.

By the way... Astaria is a very closed state, with virtually no foreigners around, and a suspicious internal security service. There are few maps, and fewer photographs.

[K. A. Pital]

Might be able to get up to half up before the airfields are hit.

I said I was being generous to Norseman. The supersonic bomber group entered precisely at the moment the MiG-31Ms finished off the AEW craft which were in the air, throwing SEAD here and there - probably around several minutes after the AEW&C was destroyed. They would cover the ~700 km and around 100 km into Astaria in less than half-an-hour, and if they already trailed the MiG-31Ms, they would enter several minutes after them, as I presumed they did.

Astaria is around 500 km long and 1000 km wide. Deepining into it's territory for 250 km is enough to have the ability to strike at any vital hardpoint, and the MiG-31s of the "Tartar" group had the tasks of taking out the most sensitive radars of the advanced S-300-PMU-1 versions.

With that in mind any incursion would trigger a rapid scrambling of whatever could fly.

Well, that's what I presumed. I even gave you some of the best scramble rates from both USAF and Soviet AF.

By the way... Astaria is a very closed state, with virtually no foreigners around, and a suspicious internal security service. There are few maps, and fewer photographs.

That's why I sent the MiG-31Ms ahead. After all, I was not going after targets like army objects, etc. etc. or bombing sensitive industrial areas. I was mostly going for your IADS, and their radars are a prime lock-on target.

Your "closed state" nature and the fact that no nations communicate with you, means the news about me bombing you won't be reaching people. If I remained silent, it woudl be days before people figured out just what the hell happened.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Norseman, are you telling me that there is absolutely no way that you can enforce anti-slaving practices? To be honest, having a secret police and a navy doing all that isn't going to work. Valeria is a big place. There is no way you can possibly enforce it all, and it won't stop any of the slavers from operating out of Astaria altogether.

[Norseman]

Where's your police force in all this? How is your constitution worded with regard to Slavery?

National Police have Illegal Slavery taskforces, and there are hotline numbers to report illegal slaves (see Pezooks latest). Technically they are supposed to do all internal investigations, not involving foreigners or state security, so illegal slavery is sometimes a problem.

As for the constitution it provides for the following:
1. No one may be enslaved within the territory controlled by the Republic.
2. Only such slaves as have been legally enslaved, in accordance with local law, and who are not citizens of a nation with whom Astaria has a treaty of non-enslavement, may be imported into the Republic.
3. Anyone who is in the territory controlled by the Republic, who was enslaved contrary to the preceeding articles, is to be considered free since entering the territory of the Republic.
4. Children follow the civil status of their mother.
5. An assumption of freedom applies to all residents.
6. Slaves retain the right of life and limb.

It's more legalese in the "real" constitution, but that's about it.

[K. A. Pital]

You don't have any "treaty" of non-enslavement with me Norseman, since you don't have any sort of relations with me in the first place

[Norseman]

Norseman, are you telling me that there is absolutely no way that you can enforce anti-slaving practices? To be honest, having a secret police and a navy doing all that isn't going to work. Valeria is a big place. There is no way you can possibly enforce it all, and it won't stop any of the slavers from operating out of Astaria altogether.

Because of the profits there is no way that illegal slavery can be stopped altogether. Much in the same way as it is virtually impossible to stop the flow of drugs into most modern countries, or the flood of illegal slaves... Indeed given how isolated Astaria is its likely that quite a few other countries have as many if not more illegal slaves as Astaria. Once more Astaria is doing more about illegal slavery than most states are about human trafficking.

[Norseman]

You don't have any "treaty" of non-enslavement with me Norseman, since you don't have any sort of relations with me in the first place

Bissauru has not only banned slavery, but as a member of the South Velarian Treaty they are also obliged to stop the slave trade. Thus the trade is doubly illegal, first illegal enslavement, secondly illegally moving them across a state border, and lets throw in forging documents and shit too.

[K. A. Pital]

Okay, how about this, Norseman?

1) MiG-31Ms penetrate at Time Zero, kicking out 1, later 2 AEW&C at Time Zero + 5 minutes. They fly over the nation, lobbing SEAD Kh-31PD missiles at 150 km versus your active S-300 battalions.

2) Some inactive battalions get the clue that massive SEAD attack is coming. Shut down their radars. Others try to pose a challenge. They get tracked and their coordinates relayed to cruise missile platforms.

3) Supersonic bombers penetrate at Time Zero + 10 minutes. Unlucky idiots who try to resist get the SEAD missile. Cruise missiles already released at the point.

4) Supersonic bombers pass over Astaria, then turn away. Tu-95MS are hovering around the border, and if anything lights up some 200+ km into Astarian coastline, lob a few Kh-15P. They release cruise missiles once data is gathered.

Some of your airforce survives, but those airfields which are noted (your planes rising from airfields is a good sign to lob cruise missiles at) are stricken. Those which remain "in reserve" in the South of Astaria survive.

I lose 1 Agressor MiG-31M to the S-300-PMU-1 your most advanced missile battery, before it's radar is blown to bits, and the bomber losses I detailed below. Your Naval losses, I can't say since your Navy is somewhere in vaccuum. What was in port, was bombed (I reserved a few Tu-160 with FOAB ordnance to drop on your Seaports).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

National Police have Illegal Slavery taskforces, and there are hotline numbers to report illegal slaves (see Pezooks latest). Technically they are supposed to do all internal investigations, not involving foreigners or state security, so illegal slavery is sometimes a problem.

As for the constitution it provides for the following:
1. No one may be enslaved within the territory controlled by the Republic.
2. Only such slaves as have been legally enslaved, in accordance with local law, and who are not citizens of a nation with whom Astaria has a treaty of non-enslavement, may be imported into the Republic.
3. Anyone who is in the territory controlled by the Republic, who was enslaved contrary to the preceeding articles, is to be considered free since entering the territory of the Republic.
4. Children follow the civil status of their mother.
5. An assumption of freedom applies to all residents.
6. Slaves retain the right of life and limb.

It's more legalese in the "real" constitution, but that's about it.

Ok, I see how it works. So the next issue is how you regulate slavery in the state, and how you ensure your slavers operate legally.

Now the way I see it, is that you need more stringent checks, such as ensuring every slave wears some kind of chain not too different from dog tags with transmitters. The chain will have some kind of device that contains the particulars of the slave and you should get your police to do random checks.

Now on the issue of piracy and enforcing checks, the way I see it, is that you need plenty of frigates and fast patrol ships or corvettes to do the job. Now I am willing to offer that sort of aid to stop rampant illegal slavery and so forth, but you will still be regarded as a pariah state until you ... do something about slavery. Though I can understand that even if you did outlaw the slavery, slavery is still going to be a persistent problem in Valeria.

[Shroom Man 777]

Goddamn you SNC guys are genius! You blow up Astaria's boats so you can sell him new boats! YOUR BOATS!

The San Doradoans are green with envy. Or is that just Shepistani nuclear waste?

[K. A. Pital]

He didn't say where his "boats' actually are. I already figured out (roughly) what kind of damage to planes and ground structres can be done, but he hid his boats somewhere in vacuum. If they are somewhere 2000 km away, of course I can't kill them. But are they really?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Goddamn you SNC guys are genius! You blow up Astaria's boats so you can sell him new boats! YOUR BOATS!

The San Doradoans are green with envy. Or is that just Shepistani nuclear waste?

Actually, they are boats he never had. I was planning to offer patrol boats and frigates for patrol. Nothing too ambitious. And the boats are fucking free. So I don't make an ounce of profit. The whole idea is to ensure that the Astarians do their bit to enforce their own slavery laws, and hopefully, we can ease the country into getting rid of slavery altogether.

[DarthShady]

The plot thickens.

Fingolfin, are you sure you want to sell him ships? I wouldn't.

[K. A. Pital]

PRSF = reverse Abkhazia "Thank you for your military help. But we still vow to be independent"

I figured out as such, especially as with all the brouhaha I simply forgot to restore their Navy, just selling them several submarines. Probably my failure to save them from Beowulf's "dmilitarization" plan should also be factored. They would more likely be independent than under the C.S.R.

P.S. Norseman I once again offer you to hash out the battle in ICQ

[Siege]

Sweet! All things considered I can totally live with a CSR naval base in Livorno. So, Stas, now that our initial, uh, pleasantries have been resolved satisfactorily, I'd like to establish an embassy in Stasograd, so we can avoid unfortunate misunderstandings in the future. Would you have us?

PS: A San Dorado embassy is probably part diplomatic mission, part Wal-Mart .

[Shroom Man 777]

Better put it beside the Shroomanian Embassy, so we can totally shop over at your place if we want something else other than vodka... things like toilet paper and bread without breadlines. We can also totally stock up your inventory with awesome Shroomanian products... like a MacMill's fastfood joint!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, Byzantines are likely to set up electronic stores, and high end fashion stores to sell fashion stuff. Yeah, we are pretty stuff. This is Constantinople after all. We take fashion, seriously.

And Ferraris too. Now that I think about it. I ought to expand a little on that... since we claim to be the Italy of the STGODs world. Want to hold an F1 race? Byzantines love their races. The Hippodrome still stands there.

[Siege]

And Ferraris too. Now that I think about it. I ought to expand a little on that... since we claim to be the Italy of the STGODs world. Want to hold an F1 race? Byzantines love their races. The Hippodrome still stands there.

Hell yes I want an F-1 race. Universal Motors totally needs a racing team.