SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VII

[CmdrWilkens]

Uh...weekly manned launches? How?

I'm buying quite a few vehicles (estimating ten, right now) and the design of my shuttle is not quite the same as the real one. In particular, its thermal protection system will require much, much less work to deal with after launch. I won't have those troublesome SSMEs either - there are a lot of things that'll let me have assured, frequent and reliable access into space. That said, my initial shuttle block (probably ~3 or so) will likely have significantly greater turnaround time than the later ones (more conservative and maintenance-intensive TPS).

Even given an eight week turnaround time (I expect rather better!), ten shuttles means I'll have plenty ready, plus ones available in case of downtime. Add in Gemini-II (designed for reusability) and the advantages of solids, I think I can do weekly launches - not that I will, but I can.

I think PeZook, like myself, is mostly thinking in terms of costs. Booster refurb, engine refurb and fuel costs alone could easily blow through a couple billion just doing monthly launches. Hell NASA blows through 17Bn a year and look how many launches they have. Obviously there are a lot of other costs there so the shuttle is really only about $5Bn per year but again that is after the capital expenditure for building the damn things.

[phongn]

I'm going more for economy of scale, mass production of boosters to reduce unit costs, etc. etc. Thought has been put into this - and as for NASA, most of the shuttle cost is the army of personnel they need to baby the damn things.

[Ryan Thunder]

EDIT: Done the military bit anyway. Writing some fluff when I have time tonight.

Unless I missed something, its still unreadable.

Not to mention, improperly formatted...

[CmdrWilkens]

I'm going more for economy of scale, mass production of boosters to reduce unit costs, etc. etc. Thought has been put into this - and as for NASA, most of the shuttle cost is the army of personnel they need to baby the damn things.

Yes but even with economy of scale you are still gonna run in to having huge capital costs in what is almost certainly an inflationary market for launch materials. Given the rush everyone is making to space there HAS to be a shortage of supply against the huge and relatively sudden demand spike. Without even taking into account the relative base economies (the MSA gets away with 3x NASA's funding because we have 4x the US's economic base) you've got a shitload of capital and running costs because you have to train all those folks up to begin with. You may not need to baby your systems like NASA does but you sure as hell need a hefty support base that you would have to create out of whole cloth and that is expensive in and of itself.

I think monthly would be pushing it in tems of material and refurbishment cost unless you are going to break the bank.

[Czechmate]

EDIT: Done the military bit anyway. Writing some fluff when I have time tonight.

Unless I missed something, its still unreadable.

Not to mention, improperly formatted...

There is no 'proper format', so I'd wager it's a liveware problem on your end, bud.

[phongn]

Yes but even with economy of scale you are still gonna run in to having huge capital costs in what is almost certainly an inflationary market for launch materials. Given the rush everyone is making to space there HAS to be a shortage of supply against the huge and relatively sudden demand spike. Without even taking into account the relative base economies (the MSA gets away with 3x NASA's funding because we have 4x the US's economic base) you've got a shitload of capital and running costs because you have to train all those folks up to begin with. You may not need to baby your systems like NASA does but you sure as hell need a hefty support base that you would have to create out of whole cloth and that is expensive in and of itself.

That's true, though the IRT has been actively investing into space as well, and we have a lot of rocket industry from our arms sector. There is an advantage to going very solid-heavy right now insomuch that everyone else is pursuing liquids (IIRC) - so I'm not overlapping that much. But once everything gets going nicely? A lot of the infrastructure and support costs are relatively fixed, so that lets me pursue a faster launch rate should I choose to.

If you remember, the IRT went very early into space development and then suddenly quieted (essentially when I left for a few months) - that probably could be retcon'ed in as infrastructure and R&D leading to this push.

I think monthly would be pushing it in tems of material and refurbishment cost unless you are going to break the bank.

At first I'll be going much less often than the hypothetical maximum rate. I still have to do a lot of tests, evaluations and whatnot, plus the planned shift to Block II design once we learn about how the orbiters actually perform. Also, I don't actually intend to launch every week but I have sort of the option to do so (pre-mission loadout, training, etc. take up the vast majority of the time, so it's possible I could launch four shuttles in a week and then go quiet for awhile).

Also, if you look at my wiki article, I do have some expansion programs planned that will shortly be reduced or cancelled as space exploration heats up. The IRT also doesn't spend anywhere near as much on various programs like welfare (even if there is a national system since it's more efficient) so there's extra funding freed up in other places.

[Ryan Thunder]

EDIT: Done the military bit anyway. Writing some fluff when I have time tonight.

Unless I missed something, its still unreadable.

Not to mention, improperly formatted...

There is no 'proper format', so I'd wager it's a liveware problem on your end, bud.

And here I thought I was dense.

Let's see; non-standard bullets (dashes look like shit in a wiki when used like that, by the way), plus an utterly meaningless OOB...

Exactly what the fuck is

-2:2 FG (F-16, F-15C/H)

supposed to mean?

[Master_Baerne]

It's a ratio; perhaps he means the proportion of models within a given number of aircraft? Though given numbers are rather useless unless actually given, I grant...

[Beowulf]

Ryan: Do you know how to fucking read?

NOTE: Where X:Y is seen, X = active units and Y = units standing down or in reserve.

[Czechmate]

And here I thought I was dense.

Exactly what the fuck is

-2:2 FG (F-16, F-15C/H)

supposed to mean?

Emphasis mine. See below.

NOTE: Where X:Y is seen, X = active units and Y = units standing down or in reserve.

Also, for herr Baerne, Ryan here neglected to copy something;

The Royal Emmerian Air Force (REAF)
-2:2 FG (F-16, F-15C/H)
--1 Fighter Group = 24x F-16, 16xF-15C, 8x F-15H

I have, however, been informed that there is a better point-form system for the wiki and I am converting to that.

EDIT: Converted. Looks much better now.

[Master_Baerne]

And now everything has been made clear. Have a cookie, everyone.

[Ryan Thunder]

EDIT: Converted. Looks much better now.

Thank you, and my bad.

[Czechmate]

EDIT: Converted. Looks much better now.

Thank you, and my bad.

No big thing. It's now bolded-for-convenience. Whose convenience? Dunno.

[Raj Ahten]

Just what the hell has been going on in Omango and Sabika lately anyway? I don't believe they've been drawn into anyone's alliance lately. The last I really remember about them was that the FTO had gotten a peace deal with them that might have been good enough for a lasting peace.

[Mr Bean]

9 posts till a new story thread. If I don't catch it someone drop me a PM when it hits 1125.

[Czechmate]

IIRC they're under the NFT's stewardship. Otherwise...nothing.

[Steve]

Hank was working to pave the road for eventual Sabikan membership in the NFT, though not in the immediate future. The issues with Coilerburg have died down due to the formation of the NFT, Coilerburg coming under San Dorado aegis, and the fact that the Sabikan minorities in the Halisbad region of Coilerburg, opposite the regional major city of Saffonburg (held once by Coilerburg, granted to Sabika by the San Magdalena Accords signed in 2009), have been granted plebiscites that granted them autonomy within the Coilerburg political structure. (In part possibly due to the fact that the Sabikan militias in the area helped protected Presidents Hank and Garrett after Coilerburger ultranationalists shot down their helicopter in a brazen assassination attempt).

Not sure much has been made of Omango.

And if everyone's ready I can begin the Summit.

[K. A. Pital]

Monthly returnable vehicle space launches are bunk in my view.

In particular, its thermal protection system will require much, much less work to deal with after launch. I won't have those troublesome SSMEs either - there are a lot of things that'll let me have assured, frequent and reliable access into space.

The USSR designed it's thermal protection with exactly that in mind, superiority in maintenance and performance to the Shuttle. However, it didn't lead to significantly smaller projecteв prep times... simply because space-flown shit is so damn big and complex, there's so much to spend prep and check time on. And the damage dealt every time, even to the best thermal protection, is enormous in terms of reliablility of the vehicle without a thorough re-check and re-construction of the thermal tiles.

Don't want to party-poop, but that's a tad unreal.

[phongn]

The USSR designed it's thermal protection with exactly that in mind, superiority in maintenance and performance to the Shuttle. However, it didn't lead to significantly smaller project prep times... simply because space-flown shit is so damn big and complex, there's so much to spend prep and check time on. And the damage dealt every time, even to the best thermal protection, is enormous in terms of reliablility of the vehicle without a thorough re-check and re-construction of the thermal tiles.

The spaceframe similarity is only skin-deep, so to speak. There are major differences in design. The goal is the same as NASA's - two week turnaround time, though I doubt I'd actually achieve that (tile inspection and SSME refurbishment account for most of the time requirement). I mean, I did get a rocket engineer to do some basic design work

Don't want to party-poop, but that's a tad unreal.

Even an eight-week turnaround time (STS record) and the number of shuttles I'm considering gives the option of sustained rates, especially as I can pipeline various other operations while waiting for something else.

[Ryan Thunder]

Does anybody on Nova Terra use anything similar to the XM29 by any chance?

[Raj Ahten]

Hank was working to pave the road for eventual Sabikan membership in the NFT, though not in the immediate future. The issues with Coilerburg have died down due to the formation of the NFT, Coilerburg coming under San Dorado aegis, and the fact that the Sabikan minorities in the Halisbad region of Coilerburg, opposite the regional major city of Saffonburg (held once by Coilerburg, granted to Sabika by the San Magdalena Accords signed in 2009), have been granted plebiscites that granted them autonomy within the Coilerburg political structure. (In part possibly due to the fact that the Sabikan militias in the area helped protected Presidents Hank and Garrett after Coilerburger ultranationalists shot down their helicopter in a brazen assassination attempt).

Not sure much has been made of Omango.

And if everyone's ready I can begin the Summit.

Thanks for that. I've been going through the old threads on my spare time and I still haven't gotten to some of that stuff yet.

I also appear to have preempted your opening statement, unfortunately . (Well at least my delegates can't be kicked out as they've been in the conference center since before it began )

[Steve]

That's what unreal time is for.

[PeZook]

Phong, is this thing supposed to have a two-week turnaround, or weekly launches?

Because the former doesn't seem to be easily achievable, while the latter can be done by simply maintaining a huge costly infrastructure, so that several shuttles are in various stages of preparation at the same time.

[phongn]

Phong, is this thing supposed to have a two-week turnaround, or weekly launches?

Because the former doesn't seem to be easily achievable, while the latter can be done by simply maintaining a huge costly infrastructure, so that several shuttles are in various stages of preparation at the same time.

The latter. The former - oh jeez, no, I could only dream of a two-week turnaround, though LERT (at least production LERT and not the early-block-LERT) will have turnaround times significantly better than eight weeks.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Does anybody on Nova Terra use anything similar to the XM29 by any chance?

Some of us use the H&K G36 rifle which is similar in many ways.