SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread IX

[Crossroads Inc.]

Note that that latest post was all Fingolfin's fault.

Hey! You were the one who wrote it!

And yet I am still laughing my ass off at it, Well Done Shroomy!

[Beowulf]

There's no eunuchs or footbinding. Tian Xia isn't China.

[Shroom Man 777]

Be that as it may, I'm still sending one of those three ugly statues at you. Which one will you take, and what will you do with it?

[Beowulf]

Be that as it may, I'm still sending one of those three ugly statues at you. Which one will you take, and what will you do with it?

The one with the red x.

[Lonestar]

1. It's a roleplay, you idiot, and an open-ended one at that. Not some goddamned wargame.

Actually, Shep put it best, it's an international relations simulator. Sometimes international relations involve shooting.

2. If that's not what he intended, don't fucking try to pretend it was. The only exception I can think of to this is if they're doing something totally unreasonable and refuse to retcon it. Sort of like what I did with Beowulf in the Costas.

Oh, cry me a river. The very first display of his navy is one of vessels(plural) dating back 2 decades. I get that Crossroads isn't into militaria like me, Beowulf, Shep, or even Stas, but he surely should have known to be more careful about the images he was posting. Especially since in-game his country is a giant "what's the bottom line?" for-profit entity that very well could have just kept a lot of old shit in service for 40 years.

[Shroom Man 777]

Be that as it may, I'm still sending one of those three ugly statues at you. Which one will you take, and what will you do with it?

The one with the red x.

Which one is that? The first, second or third? Refresh your browser to behold them in their Huang-Di Glory!

[Steve]

To make things clear, just because he posted a pic of a Clem to follow along with everyone else posting pics doesn't mean he's mandated to use that specific carrier design as his carrier. Crossroad can determine his design as he wishes as long as its within reason.

Hell, when I was briefly going to jump into using pics I used a De Gaulle to represent the CRS Intrepid, but my Defiant-class CVAs are most definitely not De Gaulles.


Finally, Wilkens, I understand your logic, but I have to point out that if you wanted to make it where only alliance-member Tsardoms or any Imperiums could even have their own carriers it should have been integrated into the rules, much like the limits of numbers of 5th Gen fighters starting out. If CR wants to claim a carrier fleet and native capability, then that's his decision IMHO.

[Ryan Thunder]

1. It's a roleplay, you idiot, and an open-ended one at that. Not some goddamned wargame.

Actually, Shep put it best, it's an international relations simulator. Sometimes international relations involve shooting.

Look up and to your left. That's the point, up in fucking orbit, over there.

2. If that's not what he intended, don't fucking try to pretend it was. The only exception I can think of to this is if they're doing something totally unreasonable and refuse to retcon it. Sort of like what I did with Beowulf in the Costas.

Oh, cry me a river. The very first display of his navy is one of vessels(plural) dating back 2 decades. I get that Crossroads isn't into militaria like me, Beowulf, Shep, or even Stas, but he surely should have known to be more careful about the images he was posting. Especially since in-game his country is a giant "what's the bottom line?" for-profit entity that very well could have just kept a lot of old shit in service for 40 years.

And this is why you ask before you go and do something stupid--like acting on it IC.

[Lonestar]

Blah blah blah I'm a whiny bitch

And that, folks, is why he has a VI title.

FWIW, I'm not disputing any of Crossroad's later claims, like that he has Tico-analogs.

[RogueIce]

FWIW, I'm not disputing any of Crossroad's later claims, like that he has Tico-analogs.

Speaking of which, Crossroads save some points, slash those Ticos, and buy 'em off me! I have 20 of the things with a future as razor blades right now. So you can buy 'em off me for the price of your soul a reasonable price and you can put those points in other things. Like...something. I don't know. I just want to sell the damn things.

Seriously, if you're interested, shoot me a PM. I have...ideas. Big ideas. Ideas that should make you curious enough to PM me just to see what they are.

[PeZook]

Great, so Lonestar is now pulling a Zor ("Your cops only carry batons because you didn't specify any other equipment!") on us?

I guess all my Gawron-class corvettes use weapons scavenged from 40 year old Soviet missile boats too, right? I never got around to specifying what they carry, and the only picture I ever used was of the only boat Poland is building now IRL, so...

That would have worked if not for one thing: Carrier groups do not to approach within 1000km of the coast to launch cruise missile strikes. The US Navy strategy in the 70-80s was to force the Soviet Navy and Air Force into a battle far away from its shores and launch attacks 2500km away.

That's pretty much why the Soviet Navy itself, and the Russian Navy, saw need for carriers to protect its sub groups and to bring the battle to th enemy. Your navy and navy is too awefully short ranged for that sort of thing and thus at best good for rear side action.

*shrugs*

As I wrote, I didn't put much thought at all into my navy beyond what I specified.

Besides, navies are slowly becoming obsolete with the deployment of more and more orbital fighter-bombers

[Ryan Thunder]

whee I'm a condescending ass-clown

Hey look, I can dismiss what other people say with a wave of my hand, too.

Anyway, I guess Steve's ruling settles it.

In other news, we learn that Lonestar doesn't understand the concept of a game you can't "win". This puts the Old Dominion gobbling up the Impact Crater in an entirely new light.

[RogueIce]

Great, so Lonestar is now pulling a Zor ("Your cops only carry batons because you didn't specify any other equipment!") on us?

I guess all my Gawron-class corvettes use weapons scavenged from 40 year old Soviet missile boats too, right? I never got around to specifying what they carry, and the only picture I ever used was of the only boat Poland is building now IRL, so...

This is why I stopped using pictures long ago. Otherwise my carriers would be the HORNET SWARM (or I'd dig up some with F-4 Phantoms just for shits and giggles).

On a serious note though, if you're going to use pictures in an IC post (which is IC after all) then shouldn't they hold some weight? Especially if you haven't specified anything to the contrary? And put "carrier battle group" into Google and you'll get this in the first row of matches:


http://www.warshipsifr.com/media/USSent ... eGroup.jpg (I don't feel like hosting it, so if it's a red x just click the link(

It's the Enterprise but close enough. I'm not sure how he got the image he did.

But oh well. As even Stas has stated, the Clemfrenchwhatever makes sense for a Tsardom rather than the Nimitz-spam we usually have. If he wants to roll with a CVN, a CdG? Maybe if he's nice I'll sell him a Nimitz in a couple years or whenever my second Ford-class comes online.

EDIT: Steve did say "within reason" and as Stas pointed out, a Clemfrenchfreedomwhatever is quite reasonable for a Tsardom. I'm sure Lonestar got his courtesy of the MESS, and Shroom got his from...Tonkin? MESS? Who knows.

[Lonestar]

Great, so Lonestar is now pulling a Zor ("Your cops only carry batons because you didn't specify any other equipment!") on us?

I guess all my Gawron-class corvettes use weapons scavenged from 40 year old Soviet missile boats too, right? I never got around to specifying what they carry, and the only picture I ever used was of the only boat Poland is building now IRL, so...

Yes, but only because you named your ships after a Klingon.

Are you seriously comparing a cop and a picture of a BUNCH OF SHIPS ON A NAVAL EXERCISE as being equal in making extrapolations? Especially since, again, in-charecter it makes sense for a "Bottom line, profit profit profit"(with Crossroads talking about it...a lot) country to just keep shit in service for a long time?

On a serious note though, if you're going to use pictures in an IC post (which is IC after all) then shouldn't they hold some weight? Especially if you haven't specified anything to the contrary? And put "carrier battle group" into Google and you'll get this in the first row of matches:

On the second page is a image that Baerne used and is linked to a SDN post.

[PeZook]

Yes, but only because you named your ships after a Klingon.

Gawron-class corvette

I guess the decision makers of the Polish navy are huge fans of Star Trek

Are you seriously comparing a cop and a picture of a BUNCH OF SHIPS ON A NAVAL EXERCISE as being equal in making extrapolations? Especially since, again, in-charecter it makes sense for a "Bottom line, profit profit profit"(with Crossroads talking about it...a lot) country to just keep shit in service for a long time?

It also makes sense for them to splurge exhorbitant amounts of money on brand spanking new crap. Corportations have done both, and it's not like you can decide on an entire country's culture based on two lines in OOC...

[Bluewolf]

Wow I leave for a few days and all this crap happens. Anyway I am sorry I have been away but I just don't have the heart to do this atm (writers block you could say). I am still in and as I am a lazy scum bag. want a quick update, what did I miss?

Also on the picture issue. I don't agree with a picture basically portraying equipment and stuff exactly. The idea of them is to give some flavour and decoration but I realise that putting something that is totally diffrent to what you are RPing (like a bi plane shot when your talking about F22's) is understandable.

[Crossroads Inc.]

You know what, On this whole businesses, it is no biggie. SO I have Clems, well By gum there are going to be the most advanced clems EVER. They will look old, but every bit inside will be modern tech! I'm talking fast computers, internet, radar, Spas and ICEE Machines, the WORKS.

[Lonestar]

It also makes sense for them to splurge exhorbitant amounts of money on brand spanking new crap. Corportations have done both, and it's not like you can decide on an entire country's culture based on two lines in OOC...

I know that they have GIANT TOWERING SYMBOLS OF PHALLIC TOWERS AND SYMBOLS for their administrative building, and that they worship the FSM. And waste money on Airships...lots more than just two lines in the OOC

As for photos, I've been trying to be careful about that since day one. I mean, during the One Week War I remember having trouble finding pictures of carriers on fire(from the Shepistani attack) that didn't say "lulz Enterprise" or "lulz Essex-class". I ultimately didn't post a photo of either one for that reaosn.

[Crossroads Inc.]

It also makes sense for them to splurge exhorbitant amounts of money on brand spanking new crap. Corportations have done both, and it's not like you can decide on an entire country's culture based on two lines in OOC...

I know that they have GIANT TOWERING SYMBOLS OF PHALLIC TOWERS AND SYMBOLS for their administrative building, and that they worship the FSM. And waste money on Airships...lots more than just two lines in the OOC

AND We have a massive Porn industry, don't forget that! Where would the civilized world be without Porn?
ANd airships a waste of money? Really now, given the larger ones i build are virtually floating hotels, complete with posh rooms and skimpily dressed attendants, well, how could you complain?

[Steve]

If this is how things are with the whole "must be so powerful to have carriers", how come I didn't get complaints for being a Kingdom that started the game with a navy centered around three conventional-powered 57,500 ton CVs and three Wasp-analogue LHDs? Nor did anyone complain when I continued the program that led to my new 65,000T CVNs (one entered service in 2017, the other won't until 2019-2020). Is the complaint just about carriers above a certain tonnage or with nuclear capability?

I mean, I agree with Wilkens' logic, but this is really something that should've been put into the game rules from the getgo.

[Siege]

On a serious note though, if you're going to use pictures in an IC post (which is IC after all) then shouldn't they hold some weight?

No. Why? They're just flavor. The written text is the game, the pictures are just there as optional decoration. Or do you go "hay that's not San Dorado, that's NEW YORK" everytime I post an atmospheric picture of SDC? If we were to adopt this as a rule it would inevitably lead to utterly preposterous situations and you know it.

[Ryan Thunder]

No. Why? They're just flavor. The written text is the game, the pictures are just there as optional decoration. Or do you go "hay that's not San Dorado, that's NEW YORK" everytime I post an atmospheric picture of SDC? If we were to adopt this as a rule it would inevitably lead to utterly preposterous situations and you know it.

^
Seriously.

[CmdrWilkens]

If this is how things are with the whole "must be so powerful to have carriers", how come I didn't get complaints for being a Kingdom that started the game with a navy centered around three conventional-powered 57,500 ton CVs and three Wasp-analogue LHDs? Nor did anyone complain when I continued the program that led to my new 65,000T CVNs (one entered service in 2017, the other won't until 2019-2020). Is the complaint just about carriers above a certain tonnage or with nuclear capability?

I mean, I agree with Wilkens' logic, but this is really something that should've been put into the game rules from the getgo.

Here is the thing, and I probably haven't madethis clear enough because I did partially object to your carriers when construction started:

These things are damn expennsive. Building them even more so, building them when you can't support continuous yard operations is even more so. In otherwords its fine to start off with carriers but the longer you have them the more they will age and wear out. When a 3 carrier nation goes to build a 60,000+ ton vehicle then it should incur a cost penalty (for having to retool the yards) and a time penalty (for having to retool the yards).

I'm going to try to put together a set of proposed ideas for fleet carrier construction but I think it would be fair enough to say that for any nation without dedicated facilities (and you'd need either to have allies or a navy or your own with at least 6-8 ships for a dedicated yard) it shoudl take a decade from first funding and 6 years from keel to commissioing a fleet carrier. The US does it in 8 from funding and 4 from keel which is what a dedicated yard should be able to do.

Anyway I willwork on amroe detailedproposal andoffer it for consideration before the weekendis out.

[RogueIce]

No. Why? They're just flavor. The written text is the game, the pictures are just there as optional decoration. Or do you go "hay that's not San Dorado, that's NEW YORK" everytime I post an atmospheric picture of SDC? If we were to adopt this as a rule it would inevitably lead to utterly preposterous situations and you know it.

I just assume San Dorado looks a lot like New York, at least in that one part you show over and over and over... But I don't feel like making people 100% beholden to pictures...but on the other hand, if that's what you're using to visualize your stuff, don't be shocked if people assume that's the way it is, or at least looks on the outside. Especially if you're consistent with it.

Unless you retcon it somehow. Like when Shroom posted those pics during his visit to the Shinra Republic and I waved it off as Shroom-o-vision. But that only really works if it's somebody else attributing it to you. If you're the one posting pics, that's your own damn fault.

As far as carriers, I seem to remember Wilkens saying a Clem was ok which is about that size (fuck if I'm looking on Wikipedia to verify that, though) and I got the impression he was more against a Tsardom fielding some 100,000 ton Nimitz-style carriers.

For the construction thing though, it makes sense. I mean a lot of the furor over the F-22 is that, "once we stop building, it'll be expensive as fuck to start again" and I imagine the same holds true for carriers. If you stop building them, it'll be a real bitch to start rebuilding. Possible? Sure; you had to start at some point in your history, after all. But it'll probably take longer, be more expensive, and you first one will likely have all sorts of little problems because you lost most of your "institutional knowledge" in carrier construction over whatever period of time you weren't building the things. Plus the fact those yards either closed down or got converted to something else.

If a three carrier Navy keeps building, their carriers are either going to retire young...or it'll expand their carrier fleet, which brings on a whole new type of bitching.

[Siege]

I just assume San Dorado looks a lot like New York, at least in that one part you show over and over and over...

You assume correctly; even still, assuming thing A looks roughly like thing B is a far cry from bestowing some kind of in-context 'weight' on pictures used. It's quite obvious that San Dorado is Mega New York, and that King Paul lives in a castle up on a hill somewhere, because recurring pictures used jive with the textual descriptions of those places. I doubt you'll find any such descriptions to support the assertion that Crossroadia's carriers are rusting in port to go with that single image used once.

Assuming pictures are some kind of in-context source with their own 'weight' only allows people to make up random shit about the stuff in those pictures, which when you think about it comes dangerously close to roleplaying another player's assets. Instead, pictures used ought to give you a general idea of what's being talked about in the text, nothing more than that. The text should always be the one and only source of in-context info.