SDN World 3 Commentary Thread I

[Czechmate]

Another note - I might be absent from the internet starting tomorrow till Tuesday.

Well, that sucks. The weekend is usually the busiest time for SDNWs.

[Norseman]

I just hope I will get *anything* done for this SD, quite frankly I've been so busy lately I haven't gotten a single post done.

EDIT: It'd be a *lot* easier if I could do a co-operative post with someone.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Another note - I might be absent from the internet starting tomorrow till Tuesday.

Puts a damper on our joint fleet exercises but there's plenty to keep me busy in the mean time.

[Master_Baerne]

I need a pacifiс port. Hopefully you do realize that any nation pretending to be a superpower, or aiming for such status in the future must have access, and supply facilities and ports, in both Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Probably should have addressed this sooner. Who are the superpowers in this game? Who has supply facilities and ports in both Atlantic and Pacific oceans, that aren't an isthmus, where it's easy, simply because you're 300 miles wide there?

Let's see, you've got Germany, who only has a port in East Asia by the grace of Bluewolf. There's Britain, who's a naval power, but that's about it. There's Mexico, but that's an isthmus. It'd be illogical for him not to have ports on both oceans. There's the Dutch, but they're scattered throughout the East Indies in a city here and there. There's Columbia, which is similar to Mexico. Chilitina, pretty similar to both of those. And only Mexico, Columbia, and Chilitina actually have the capability to supply their opposite ocean ports through rail.

I've got Cambodia, with a reasonably extensive fleet base there. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Lonestar]

I also love how Shep and Lonestar somehow know that the destination of my warships is the Shepistani sea, when it has not yet been decided IC where it is headed. For the moment, the official destination is "exercises conducted off Spain with friends and allies."

It isn't that hard to make a reasonable inference, based upon available information, that the HSF is heading off to the IO during a time of great international tension Thanas.


Also, if the Reds invade the Kingdom of Manchu, then by gum, I shall call for "volunteer brigades" and provide all aid short of war to the Manchus to push the RED HORDE back into the ENDLESS PLAINS OF RUSSIA!

*monocle*

[Steve]

Just a friendly reminder: Saturday is the start of April 1925 and thus time to update Construction Queues... if they're needed anyway.

Though you can update them beforehand if you have something changing - I will likely do an update tonight to reflect that my first two, three 1923 dreadnoughts have launched, and thus reduce to 5% IBP cost.

[Raj Ahten]

Just a heads up for everyone, I've been out in the woods doing chainsaw training and will continue to do until Friday, so don't expect too much posting until then. I should be able to continue my work with the Freedom conferencetm and fix my orbat (for the final time!) then.

[Dark Hellion]

I'm doing finals right now so I will not be posting much of anything until the middle of next week.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Q2 1925 starts this Saturday? Wonderful. I still haven't completely figured out the composition of my reserves, I still don't have any idea of what to build, I still don't know who's in my government...

Speaking of the SAU's government, since there wasn't a Philippine Revolution, people like José Rizal, Andrés Bonifacio, Antonio Luna, and Gregorio del Pilar would conceivably still be alive and probably holding positions in the SAU leadershipp. On the other hand, I have no clue as to who was in charge in Malaysia during the 1920s, I don't want the Sultan of Brunei to be holding any real influence in the SAU's politics, and many of the notable Vietnamese political leaders (both Ho Chi Minh and Ngo Dinh Diem come to mind) were still too young to be holding really significant positions in 1925.

[Norade]

Fear Portugal and her many bladed flying machines of doom!

[Akhlut]

I hope it's clear that Baron Ungern von Sternberg is a complete lunatic. However, I imagine that in this day and age (the 20s, not now) his lunacy will still catch hold with some people, though, perhaps not anyone at the Freedom Conference.

[Beowulf]

Have you considered Russia having built a railway to the Siberian coastline and then along the coast of the Sea of Okhotsk to Kamchatka, or to Kamchatka via any other route

Russia has not, historically. Even the USSR hasn't. It's too damn hard to construct such a railway.

Beowulf, well that's all fine. To be fair though, both Russia and some other nations would love to have a railway-linked port city in the Pacific. You probably do have one, regardless of whether it's precisely Vladivostok or some other place - not just Port Arthur alone (it's easily threatened from China; Manchuria probably has another large port city somewhere north).

Now, if there could be a possibility of me having railway connections to places like Vanino or Sovietskaya Gavan, sure, I'd be probably content and build my Navy there. But Manchuria cut off even that! You took almost the entire coastline of the Khabarovsk Krai that was suitable for military naval ports (large ports). And that's not mentioning that I would have to indulge into constructing a Baikal-Amur magistral type railway project to make these ports truly viable and valuable as military installations.

So basically, I'm cut off from all possible Far East ports (Okhotsk cannot be connected by railway, neither Kamchatka, without very significant expenses), especially those usable for military needs. That's why I didn't even bother setting up a Pacific Navy - I have nowhere to base it and resupply.

That's why, Vladivostok, Vanino or any other large port in the IRL Khabarovsk Krai will be a target of Soviet ambitions. You can't just say "well, you have a non-accessibly by railway port in the Kamchatka". Neither can you claim you DON'T have at least a mid-sized port in Khabarovsk Krai which I could not turn to a military installation reasonably suitable to my needs.

Too hard, or just not worth it for the USSR, when it had already rail connected base at Vladivostok? It's 100 miles from the nearest inland river valley(Maya River) to Okhotsk, and the mountains are only 2000 feet high. Those are hills in between the Stanovoy and the Verkhoyansk! It may be somewhat expensive to build through them, but they're nothing compared to the Rockies, which the the US built multiple railways through. Alternatively, you could have the railway follow roughly the route of the Kolmya highway. This is probably less suitable, due to the northerness of the route

I took the entire Manchurian Plain for reasons: one was there's little reason for the Treaty of Nerchinsk to be abrogated by the Treaty of Aigun, since that implies an even weaker state than one that is willing to let Russia lease a harbor (which you rejected). The second is that there are few natural defensive features other than the Heilongjiang itself on the plain.

Manchuria has several large Pacific ports. However, all my territory is on the Pacific. Again, if your point is to gain a Pacific port, why do you want one that only operates during the summer? All of the Far East ports are unusable in winter, because they ice over. That is the whole rational behind the Russo-Japanese War in real-life! It was a Russian quest to gain a port that wouldn't ice over, and a Japanese quest to stop the Russians from doing so.

If Petropavlovsk is so unsuitable for military needs, why is there a major submarine base there today? If supplying ports by sea is so unsuitable, how do many of the East Indies/Indian Ocean fleet ports end up supplied? Many of them have no natural resources to speak of, such as Diego Garcia. Shipping is no less able to supply a port with necessary goods than a railway.

For an incomplete list of ports of mine: Yingkou, Dalian, Lushunko, Andong, Namp'o, Incheon, Gunsan, Mokpo, Chejudo (not to be confused with the island that it's on), Pusan, Ulsan, Pohang, Donghae, Sokcho, Chongjin, Sonbong, Haishenwei, Fuyori, Otchishi, Ohka, Apra Harbor, Makassar, Palu, Manando

As to expense: is a war seriously going to be cheaper than building a railway?

[K. A. Pital]

It's 100 miles from the nearest inland river valley(Maya River) to Okhotsk, and the mountains are only 2000 feet high. Those are hills in between the Stanovoy and the Verkhoyansk! It may be somewhat expensive to build through them, but they're nothing compared to the Rockies, which the the US built multiple railways through.

You are kidding me, right? I will have to venture close to the polar circle to build that railway, with all the entailing problems and such. The terrain there is just very, very bad. Both Russian Empire and the USSR contemplated building that railway because Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy is a warm port.

one was there's little reason for the Treaty of Nerchinsk to be abrogated by the Treaty of Aigun, since that implies an even weaker state than one that is willing to let Russia lease a harbor (which you rejected).

Sure it does. Because IRL it was a weak China which lost that land.

The second is that there are few natural defensive features other than the Heilongjiang itself on the plain.

Yeah, but Amur was always the border, wasn't it? China had Sungari, et cetera, and it operated it's own defences, including fortresses, beyond Amur.

Again, if your point is to gain a Pacific port, why do you want one that only operates during the summer? All of the Far East ports are unusable in winter, because they ice over. That is the whole rational behind the Russo-Japanese War in real-life!

Because right now I don't even a have a railway or river-supplied port. You denied me even Nikolaevsk-on-Amur for pete's sake. And without a railway line or river supply, Pacific access is worth precious little.

By you own logic, Russia should've been satisfied when it had Vladivostok and Petopavlovsk, and should have supplied one from the other and thus solve the problem of a warm seaport. However, Russia made a blatant grab for Port Artur. Even so.

I need at least some resuppliable port, and then I'll think of my next steps.

If Petropavlovsk is so unsuitable for military needs, why is there a major submarine base there today?

Yeah, a modern submarine base (the Soviet Pacific Navy created Viluchinsk as a base for modern nuclear submarines because they did not, surprise, REQUIRE HEAVY RESUPPLY BY RAIL). However, I even have no other FAR EAST ports from which to move cargo to Petropvalovsk by sea easily! Even Nikolaevsk I lost, all thanks to you.

Shipping is no less able to supply a port with necessary goods than a railway.

Yeah, except one little issue - I have to supply them by going AROUND THE FUCKING WORLD, either through extreme North waters, or through the entire Indian ocean, which is patently insane. Either that, or I can't resupply Kamchatka from railway-connected ports. And guess why, all because you denied me ALL ports in the Far East from Nikolaevsk to Vladivostok. Not just one of them, but ALL of them.

As to expense: is a war seriously going to be cheaper than building a railway?

Through the North? You bet. Just an explanation, the IRL Russian Far Eastern Railway cuts the distance necessary to transport cargo by sea to the Kamchatka by... oh-1000 km. The cargo intensity of Extreme North (how do you call that in english, "eternal cold"?) railways is very low. Usually they do not become profitable. Even Stalin, who had no concern of profits, failed to build a railway in the eternal cold just because it's so damn hard and very costly. The project of Kamchatka railway is presumed to have a 30-times cost versus the ordinary Eastern Railway transit for cargo. That's not really useful. On the other hand, I can capture Amur and Nikolaevsk-on-Amur at the very least, and be satisfied.

Frankly, you should've thought about that when you captured the entirety of Russian Far East. I'm not going to transship goods through the North, incurring huge costs, badly damaging ship hulls and all that, around Bering straits all the way to Petropavlovsk; neither am I going to indulge in ridiculous transit through Suez and Indian Ocean, and then the Pacific.

No; I need a port in the East and I will get it.

As for comparison:
Russo-Japanese War: 2 billion roubles
Great Siberian Railroad: 1 billion roubles
Chinese Eastern Railroad: 0,5 billion roubles

Not so clear cut as it would seem. Ordinary climate railroads costed around 150 000 roubles per kilometer (roughly). A relatively low (ten-fold) increase of expenses due to permafrost (I'm being generous, because in reality the expenses might as well be 30-fold), would yield 1,5 million per kilometer of track.

The project of Lena-Kamchatka magistral requires ~5000 km of track. That's 7,5 billion roubles. It's more costly than a war, which is very bad for you.

[Norseman]

I think I should mention that Brazil's relative isolation has been fairly voluntary, the country has basically retreated inwards since the Revolution and seems fairly uninterested in outside events. That might change later on, but for now Brazil remains the Hermit Kingdom.

Oh and I'm trying to work on a first post but it's difficult Can't think of anything to really write.

[Norade]

Yeah, that can be hard, lucky for me I have Shep and Lonestar nearby to give me something to do. xD

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Comrade Stas makes a compelling case for war. By all means, war it shall be.

[DarthShady]

My introduction post is finally up. It isn't what I had in mind, but Firefox ate my first attempt, so it will have to do. It simply introduces some key Confederacy players and shows our stance on the German situation.

[Master_Baerne]

It's a bad sign when war is a better option than railroads. Life's a funny old thing, ain't it?

[Norseman]

By the way Stas Bush will Russian cinema be as incomprehensible this time around as in @? Inquiring minds want to know! I've been trying to watch Arsenal and like much of Russian cinema it is very beautiful but... what is it?

[Evincer]

Try Eisenstein' "Strike" as well as "Battleship Potemkin."

[Norseman]

Try Eisenstein' "Strike" as well as "Battleship Potemkin."

I've seen Eisenstein, I can almost understand him But so much of Russian cinema is so bizarrely avant garde that it's hard to figure out just what the *heck* is going on.

[K. A. Pital]

It's a bad sign when war is a better option than railroads.

Were it not for permafrost, I might have contemplated a railroad instead. But then, I can list my options.

1) Building a permafrost Lena-Kamchatka railroad. Cons: huge expenses, possibly larger than a war. Pros: no war, no people die. Well, except the communists that Beowulf rounds up and shoots.

2) Taking over Nikolaevsk (whatever city is in the area) in a small attack from the very far North-East. Pros: little commitment and small war. Cons: I'll have to resupply the city through Amur river. The river would have to be capture to ensure safety of shipments; also, winter ice on Amur is not good, meaning only summertime resupplements for me.

3) Taking over a city in the Vanino or Sovietskaya Gavan area. Pros: still have to take over Amur, but at least I get a god damn railroad and can resupply my port any day, any time. Cons: a large assault would be required.

4) Take over Manchuria entirely. Pros: in that case I will get Lushunkou, a warm seaport, probably a good part of the Manchurian Pacific fleet as trophies (unless they leave to... elsewhere, and be consumed by someone else), and a huge Pacific infrastructure: Cons: a mega large war, probably will require allies, and will likely upset China a lot.

As one can see, the dice hardly rolls so simply in favour of a peaceful solution. There are a lot of questions to be asked.

P.S. Sorry Norse!

[Norseman]

First Stas Bush I didn't write that... Secondly I'm fairly sure that we can offer you "volunteers" and "lend-lease" aid if it should come down to it.

[Ryan Thunder]

I think I should mention that Brazil's relative isolation has been fairly voluntary, the country has basically retreated inwards since the Revolution and seems fairly uninterested in outside events. That might change later on, but for now Brazil remains the Hermit Kingdom.

Oh and I'm trying to work on a first post but it's difficult Can't think of anything to really write.

"Message to the Honourable Government of Brazil: Trade or die."

[Norseman]

I think I should mention that Brazil's relative isolation has been fairly voluntary, the country has basically retreated inwards since the Revolution and seems fairly uninterested in outside events. That might change later on, but for now Brazil remains the Hermit Kingdom.

Oh and I'm trying to work on a first post but it's difficult Can't think of anything to really write.

"Message to the Honourable Government of Brazil: Trade or die."

Not quite what I had in mind no... I feel things would be easier if I could do a joint post or something... (Hint hint to anyone out there).