SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread III

[Norseman]

Ok, I see how it works. So the next issue is how you regulate slavery in the state, and how you ensure your slavers operate legally.

Now the way I see it, is that you need more stringent checks, such as ensuring every slave wears some kind of chain not too different from dog tags with transmitters. The chain will have some kind of device that contains the particulars of the slave and you should get your police to do random checks.

Random checks on slaves, and slave papers, are already being done. However Astaria is, ah, somewhat backwards when it comes to electronics even if a slave is the biggest investment the average family will make.

Understand that the average Astarian CITIZEN has a GNP of around $10 000. Astarian has a lot of indigenous industry because its so isolated but... generally we're looking at Mexico with an armaments industry. Of course given the educated, law abiding population, living in a stable nation, the GNP ought to be much higher but the isolationism really tells.

Now on the issue of piracy and enforcing checks, the way I see it, is that you need plenty of frigates and fast patrol ships or corvettes to do the job. Now I am willing to offer that sort of aid to stop rampant illegal slavery and so forth, but you will still be regarded as a pariah state until you ... do something about slavery. Though I can understand that even if you did outlaw the slavery, slavery is still going to be a persistent problem in Valeria.

Astaria is quite capable of building its own ships, and generally strongly dislikes buying anything but the bare necessities abroad. However San Marin and Al-Ghazzara would probably appreciate the offer, and be able to do something worthwhile with it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Random checks on slaves, and slave papers, are already being done. However Astaria is, ah, somewhat backwards when it comes to electronics even if a slave is the biggest investment the average family will make.

Understand that the average Astarian CITIZEN has a GNP of around $10 000. Astarian has a lot of indigenous industry because its so isolated but... generally we're looking at Mexico with an armaments industry. Of course given the educated, law abiding population, living in a stable nation, the GNP ought to be much higher but the isolationism really tells.

How about I help finance the use of the tags.

Astaria is quite capable of building its own ships, and generally strongly dislikes buying anything but the bare necessities abroad. However San Marin and Al-Ghazzara would probably appreciate the offer, and be able to do something worthwhile with it.

Who are these countries in general anyhow? I'm a little unclear as to their status.

[Norseman]

P.S. Norseman I once again offer you to hash out the battle in ICQ

I remember Steve complaining that Shep's take on war was far more detailed then his own knowledge. That is my own problem, I simply don't know enough about military matters to be able to fight out anything on ICQ. Either I find someone who can help me, or we need to find a neutral arbitrator.

[Shroom Man 777]

I mean in the embassies. I don't think the Byzantines would demean themselves by selling crap from their diplomatic offices.

Though a perfume shop at the Byzantine Embassies would be pretty classy!

Goddamn, Byzantines and Shroomanians should TOTALLY have rivalries. Ferraris versus Shroomwagens, F1s versus SHROOMCAR (NasCar)!


MacMillan Motors, Shroomcedes Schromz!

[Setzer]

I thought the national sport of Byzantium was civil wars fought over religious trivia.

[Norseman]

Random checks on slaves, and slave papers, are already being done. However Astaria is, ah, somewhat backwards when it comes to electronics even if a slave is the biggest investment the average family will make.

Understand that the average Astarian CITIZEN has a GNP of around $10 000. Astarian has a lot of indigenous industry because its so isolated but... generally we're looking at Mexico with an armaments industry. Of course given the educated, law abiding population, living in a stable nation, the GNP ought to be much higher but the isolationism really tells.

How about I help finance the use of the tags.

There are private groups that already use tags, or slave bracelets, but these are generally for houseslaves. Most middle-class neighbourhoods also have slave monitoring networks. The problem isn't identifying the slaves, the problem is making sure the paperwork is straight.

Astaria is quite capable of building its own ships, and generally strongly dislikes buying anything but the bare necessities abroad. However San Marin and Al-Ghazzara would probably appreciate the offer, and be able to do something worthwhile with it.

Who are these countries in general anyhow? I'm a little unclear as to their status.

Urm they are Velarian countries the first one is roughly the equivalent of Madagaskar the second the equivalent of Lesotho. You could say that they are the best organised of my allies.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

And Ferraris too. Now that I think about it. I ought to expand a little on that... since we claim to be the Italy of the STGODs world. Want to hold an F1 race? Byzantines love their races. The Hippodrome still stands there.

Hell yes I want an F-1 race. Universal Motors totally needs a racing team.

In that case, I'll write up an invitation later. Ferrari motors must send its racing team as well.

I thought the national sport of Byzantium was civil wars fought over religious trivia.

That was one of the national pastimes. Lots of people had their eyes gorged out too.

But... the Byzantines once had a very fierce riot after some chariot race at the hippodrome. Yeah, they love their racing, a bit too much.

[Setzer]

They also factionalized along religious lines in the Hippodrome. Backing one team meant you were a Monophysite, another meant you were a Chalcedonian, etc. It wasn't like modern sports rivalries. If you're talking about the Nika riots, that was mainly the prelude to a coup detat.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

They also factionalized along religious lines in the Hippodrome. Backing one team meant you were a Monophysite, another meant you were a Chalcedonian, etc. It wasn't like modern sports rivalries. If you're talking about the Nika riots, that was mainly the prelude to a coup detat.

Won't be surprised. There was one Emperor or something who complained he couldn't get a hair cut without getting into a conversation on that issue.

I think I was referring to the Nika riots. Something like a lot of Constantinople got burned down as a result.

EDIT: A quick check was that one. Yeah. Crazy buggers.

[Steve]

Note that no blockade has gone up yet. The Cascadian Congress, swept up in the moment, voted that resolution through, but it's ultimately up to the President to set anything up. And if such a thing is geopolitically impossible, or a better alternative is posited, then that's what's more likely to happen.

That said, exactly what geopolitical benefit does alliance with Astaria, the world's most notorious pariah state, give Japanistan? Are they even trying now or have they given up on assuring the world they're not militaristic imperialists out to seize as much power as possible?

[Norseman]

That said, exactly what geopolitical benefit does alliance with Astaria, the world's most notorious pariah state, give Japanistan? Are they even trying now or have they given up on assuring the world they're not militaristic imperialists out to seize as much power as possible?

It's a treaty, not an alliance, note that the word "ally" and "alliance" isn't mentioned anywhere in the treaty. Furthermore since it has a two power standard it doesn't commit Japanistan to do anything unless two powers attack Astaria.

[Steve]

That said, exactly what geopolitical benefit does alliance with Astaria, the world's most notorious pariah state, give Japanistan? Are they even trying now or have they given up on assuring the world they're not militaristic imperialists out to seize as much power as possible?

It's a treaty, not an alliance, note that the word "ally" and "alliance" isn't mentioned anywhere in the treaty. Furthermore since it has a two power standard it doesn't commit Japanistan to do anything unless two powers attack Astaria.

Given the entire world is going to be quite sore with Astaria, it's effectively Japanistan proclaiming it'll protect Astaria from being lanced like the boil it is.

[Norseman]

Given the entire world is going to be quite sore with Astaria, it's effectively Japanistan proclaiming it'll protect Astaria from being lanced like the boil it is.

Sore with Astaria for a rather farfetched scenario that you thought up, and that I ought to have the good sense to nix. I know you have an irrational hatred of my powers, but you know what? Astaria has been behaving exemplary towards the other members of the community of nations. It's not Astaria's fault that certain nations seek to use force as their first, last, and only resort.

EDIT: By the way the various Velarian nations aren't sore with Astaria, who is doing more for them, and has done more for them, than the rest of the world combined. Especially now that the latest treaties are up and running.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Given the entire world is going to be quite sore with Astaria, it's effectively Japanistan proclaiming it'll protect Astaria from being lanced like the boil it is.

Sore with Astaria for a rather farfetched scenario that you thought up, and that I ought to have the good sense to nix. I know you have an irrational hatred of my powers, but you know what? Astaria has been behaving exemplary towards the other members of the community of nations. It's not Astaria's fault that certain nations seek to use force as their first, last, and only resort.

Actually, not too far fetched in our opinion. With Skimmer, we have always decided that assuming worst case scenario, was often the safest bet.

[Norseman]

Actually, not too far fetched in our opinion. With Skimmer, we have always decided that assuming worst case scenario, was often the safest bet.

Farfetched as in the whole "Star of Sweethaven" incident.

[Steve]

Oh, it's irrational for poor ol' slave-holding Astaria to be hated and despised. I see.

As for my personal opinions, yes, I find it aggravating that your hard-on for writing slavery was permitted to be accepted in this STGOD. Maybe if this were set in the 1800s, sure. BUt the modern day?

By all rights, you should have long been trounced by the MESS or the CSR at this point in history. It defies rational explaination for Astaria to be as it is. But it was permitted anyway. And what do you do?

You rub our faces in it. Every. Fucking. Time. You. Can. There is literally no other purpose for stuff like your last post about the girl Kasia, or your smarmy remarks about slave laborers when al-Akharabat was the global spotlight, or that "ice cream from slave girl breast milk" bit.

You goad us and then you whine that we react?

As for Star of Sweethaven, what I had in mind was the legal ramifications, not of the Peace Corps volunteers, but of the "legal" slaves onboard like Naheen. There was, after all, no legal justification for the Cascadian Navy to take them off the ship. The ship, moving as an act of internal commerce, could not be held in violation of any treaties banning the slave trade in regards to them, not even your new treaty with the southern Velerian states. It could have been a marvelous plotline, the morals of the majority of the world pitted against the rule of Law, which makes the civilized world work. It wasn't even necessarily a pre-ordained conclusion. A judge could have ruled the taking illegal and ordered compensation paid. It would have been controversial, but not inexplicable: the job of a judge is rule based according to the Law, not according to what the public wants.

But instead you made the decision to ignore it.

Have you even thought Astaria out very much beyond "Just like Pendleton! Victoria England with slavery!"? How is slavery morally and legally justified? The Confederates justified it on racial grounds, that blacks were naturally subservient to whites, and that it was even in their best interest to be slaves. A premise that is laughable when it is not blood-boilingly contemptible, but it was still a justification that provided a moral, legal framework.

Is Astarian slavery racial in origin too? Or not? What moral justification is there for it? If there's not, then Astaria's society is more likely to be built on a "might makes right" premise.

What kind of arguments are the forces of slavery able to array against the moral arguments of the abolitionists? Are they entirely ones of practicality? That might work in legislature, but arguments on the street?

Seriously, Veg, how much thought did you put into this beyond "I'll have slavery!" and the apparently attendant "And I'll remind everyone I have it at every possible juncture!"?

[Steve]

Actually, not too far fetched in our opinion. With Skimmer, we have always decided that assuming worst case scenario, was often the safest bet.

Farfetched as in the whole "Star of Sweethaven" incident.

Farfetched in what way? That the odds were finally made, that the stars aligned right, and Lady Fortune cast her die so that it meant a mutiny of slaves on board? That as luck would have it, the carrier had the Peace Corps volunteers, amongst them men with military training who could lead the taking of the ship? That a complacent crew was caught by surprise? IOW, that a whole host of variables that, by themselves, likely would've never seen anything come of them, but together, proved a mixture that led to the mutiny?

Farfetched? Not likely to happen, and far less likely to happen again since slave-carriers will be far more paranoid, but hardly farfetched.

As it is, I actually gave a concession to the Astarian system: I assumed that it, to prevent such things from going undetected, instituted a system of radio checks at intervals for ships at sea carrying slaves on the Astaria-South Veleria run. I could have easily had it not do so, which means the ship would've been long gone by the time it failed to arrive in harbor and set off alarms.

[Norseman]

Oh, it's irrational for poor ol' slave-holding Astaria to be hated and despised. I see.

No, but something like the Star of Sweethaven is simply not all that realistic. I mean the very idea of a group of peace corps volunteers happening to be captured in Bissauru of all places. Then just happening to manage a mutiny...

As for Star of Sweethaven, what I had in mind was the legal ramifications, not of the Peace Corps volunteers, but of the "legal" slaves onboard like Naheen.

Given what happened afterwards any legal consequences are so insignificant as to fade into irrelevance.

There was, after all, no legal justification for the Cascadian Navy to take them off the ship. The ship, moving as an act of internal commerce, could not be held in violation of any treaties banning the slave trade in regards to them, not even your new treaty with the southern Velerian states. It could have been a marvelous plotline, the morals of the majority of the world pitted against the rule of Law, which makes the civilized world work. It wasn't even necessarily a pre-ordained conclusion. A judge could have ruled the taking illegal and ordered compensation paid. It would have been controversial, but not inexplicable: the job of a judge is rule based according to the Law, not according to what the public wants.

But instead you made the decision to ignore it.

From a public relations point of view the decision to ignore it is the only one that makes sense. If Astarians were to take legal measures then it would be a constant reminder of the incident, and of the existance of Astaria proper. Should they win, somehow, that would trigger another bout of moral outrage, harming Astaria's cause even further.

From a purely pragmatic point of view Astaria had nothing to gain, and a lot to lose, by going through with such a trial. So they decided not to.

That is incidentally also why they won't do anything about the CSR bombardment. Nothing that could be done or said would benefit Astaria.

There is of course also a bit of pragmatism involved; in both incidents a stronger power did as it pleased, and there was nothing that could be done about it. No point in crying about it. Better get back up, clean up the mess, and keep going as best as you can.

Is Astarian slavery racial in origin too? Or not? What moral justification is there for it? If there's not, then Astaria's society is more likely to be built on a "might makes right" premise.

At once point there was a cultural-religious justification for it. At this point, given how intermixed the two groups are it would be ridiculous to talk about race. Indeed you'd have a hard time finding anyone of pure race anywhere in the Astarian domain.

What kind of arguments are the forces of slavery able to array against the moral arguments of the abolitionists? Are they entirely ones of practicality? That might work in legislature, but arguments on the street?

The abolitionists, and there are abolitionist parties and groups, have pretty much won any moral argument there is. Indeed if there is a debate they can generally win in a formal sense. Which is why you find few pro-slavery advocates in the upper classes, indeed the House of Lords is majority abolitionist, and so are the upper echelons of the Church.

The problem is that the middle-classes don't want to lose their status symbols, and the lower classes don't want the competition in the labour market (the unions have secured concessions so slaves cannot be used in certain fields). Compared to such considerations moral arguments have little weight. The House of Commons is elected from the middle and lower classes, and they are retentionists.

[Sea Skimmer]

That said, exactly what geopolitical benefit does alliance with Astaria, the world's most notorious pariah state, give Japanistan? Are they even trying now or have they given up on assuring the world they're not militaristic imperialists out to seize as much power as possible?

Well I agreed to the treaty before people went out and started attacking Astaria, which I find to be a ridiculous result fo whats going on. The point of the treaty was to secure existing Japanistani interests Veleria, which is becoming more and more important given that everyone seems intent to turn this into a pure wargame. My forces on that contenent share a land boarder with Astarian forces in case you forget, not having to worry about those forces anymore is a major boost that doesn't require spending more money or deploying more divisions. That means more of my resources can go into raping the land for minerals and building that nuclear waste dump.

Given the entire world is going to be quite sore with Astaria, it's effectively Japanistan proclaiming it'll protect Astaria from being lanced like the boil it is.

The fact is any power that is a democracy or anything close to it in this game would have OVERWHELMING levels of public opinion against any kind of war or anything that would even look like it might spark a war right now. Even in Japanistan, very much a dictatorship with only the weaker of the two Diet houses electric by limited suffrage has to deal with this issue. Declaring a blockade is an act of war, that’s not going to happen. Embargos, searching their ships on the open sea for salves (which is legal anyway) sure, that’d be realistic.

The SDN world just saw hundreds of thousands of people killed in a barrage of chemical weapons and radioactive contamination in Shepistan and an amphibious operation that was a bloody shambles in case you forgot. No one is going to want any part of that for a good long time. The disruptions in world trade alone from Ships submarines torpedoing merchants will have caused significant damage to the world economy.

Hell as we speak in the real world Mauritania has more salves then free people, and it just had a military coup, and it’s a tiny (population wise) nation located relatively close to all the worlds major military powers, easily squashed by even the EU, and its even home to several Islamic terrorists groups which killed western tourists just earlier this year, and yet no one does a thing about it because its just too much trouble to justify.

[Sea Skimmer]

Farfetched in what way? That the odds were finally made, that the stars aligned right, and Lady Fortune cast her die so that it meant a mutiny of slaves on board? That as luck would have it, the carrier had the Peace Corps volunteers, amongst them men with military training who could lead the taking of the ship? That a complacent crew was caught by surprise? IOW, that a whole host of variables that, by themselves, likely would've never seen anything come of them, but together, proved a mixture that led to the mutiny?

That’s not far fetched, it requires pure and blinding incompetence, which is hardly reasonable for a society that’s been slaving for the whole 20th century. Lock the slaves in the hold, and they just aren’t going to get out. Its just way too easy to design a system of bulkheads and hatches which will be able to keep them contained. Add on leg irons and a means of gassing them from the bridge and its pretty fool proof.

Its not like the world hasn’t seen 20th century slave ships either, the Soviets operated quite a number of them for the gulag system. In one case such a ship became trapped in the pack ice in winter, and the entire human cargo ended up starving to death, they couldn’t escape dispute numbering several thousand. The Japanese likewise put thousands of trained soldiers on ships which weren’t even designed nor generally even significantly modified for the duty and still and never had a rebellion that accomplished anything.

[Raj Ahten]

Farfetched in what way? That the odds were finally made, that the stars aligned right, and Lady Fortune cast her die so that it meant a mutiny of slaves on board? That as luck would have it, the carrier had the Peace Corps volunteers, amongst them men with military training who could lead the taking of the ship? That a complacent crew was caught by surprise? IOW, that a whole host of variables that, by themselves, likely would've never seen anything come of them, but together, proved a mixture that led to the mutiny?

That’s not far fetched, it requires pure and blinding incompetence, which is hardly reasonable for a society that’s been slaving for the whole 20th century. Lock the slaves in the hold, and they just aren’t going to get out. Its just way too easy to design a system of bulkheads and hatches which will be able to keep them contained. Add on leg irons and a means of gassing them from the bridge and its pretty fool proof.

Its not like the world hasn’t seen 20th century slave ships either, the Soviets operated quite a number of them for the gulag system. In one case such a ship became trapped in the pack ice in winter, and the entire human cargo ended up starving to death, they couldn’t escape dispute numbering several thousand. The Japanese likewise put thousands of trained soldiers on ships which weren’t even designed nor generally even significantly modified for the duty and still and never had a rebellion that accomplished anything.

Skimmer do you happen to have the name of that Soviet slave ship, as you call it, handy? The existence of such ships is not something I was aware of.

It seems kindf of odd everyone would just starve to death. Was the trip made before helicopters were availible?

[Karmic Knight]

I'm thinking of really re-activating the FUN.

Cascadia has been trying to mediate peace in the world. Zoria and the Kingdom of Serenity/Mangka are trying to form some form of alliance. Well, let me tell you that you can get Shroomania in on an alliance and through that, you can get Shroomania's friends in PeZookia AND Frequesue. And Langley! And Sirnoth!

GO FUN!

I'm in.

[Steve]

Yet Astaria is not the Soviet Union, has a backwards economy, and plenty of chance to become complacent with internal security when it comes to slaves, at least on the high seas.

And if you want to talk about this becoming a wargame, well, maybe that's because someone built his own military without any adherence to the point system and made himself so powerful militarily so as to equal most of the Old Continent combined, if not the entire Old Continent, because those players did adhere to the point system?


Finally, Norse, in case you forgot, Bissauru is a shithole that is also a neighbor to South Veleria. It's not quite that unrealistic.

[Steve]

The fact is any power that is a democracy or anything close to it in this game would have OVERWHELMING levels of public opinion against any kind of war or anything that would even look like it might spark a war right now. Even in Japanistan, very much a dictatorship with only the weaker of the two Diet houses electric by limited suffrage has to deal with this issue. Declaring a blockade is an act of war, that’s not going to happen. Embargos, searching their ships on the open sea for salves (which is legal anyway) sure, that’d be realistic.

First off, I think we can handle how our citizens think, though I thank you for your kind opinion.

Secondly, if you read the text of what was essentially a legislative act of passion, it basically.... calls for searching Astarian ships on the open sea, which you say is perfectly legal. Ho hum.

The SDN world just saw hundreds of thousands of people killed in a barrage of chemical weapons and radioactive contamination in Shepistan and an amphibious operation that was a bloody shambles in case you forgot. No one is going to want any part of that for a good long time. The disruptions in world trade alone from Ships submarines torpedoing merchants will have caused significant damage to the world economy.

Alternatively, they may be rather tiffed with the source of that calamity and their sponsor, ie you. And now you're saying you'll protect Astaria from a curb-stomping by a Coalition.

Hell as we speak in the real world Mauritania has more salves then free people, and it just had a military coup, and it’s a tiny (population wise) nation located relatively close to all the worlds major military powers, easily squashed by even the EU, and its even home to several Islamic terrorists groups which killed western tourists just earlier this year, and yet no one does a thing about it because its just too much trouble to justify.

This is hardly the real world now is it? We're not Earth, we don't have the ideological and geopolitical baggage of Earth governments when it comes to these matters.

For one thing, we have the power of the SHROOM.

[Norseman]

Yet Astaria is not the Soviet Union, has a backwards economy, and plenty of chance to become complacent with internal security when it comes to slaves, at least on the high seas.

Urm, Steve, why do you think Astaria has a huge secret police service? Also the Soviet Union in the era in question was hardly all that much more advanced than Astaria.

However I got an excellent reason why any slave ship would be as secure as a Soviet one: The insurance companies. If you want to be insured your security precautions have to pass muster. Not only the insurers of the ship, but the insurance company insuring the slaves.

Finally, Norse, in case you forgot, Bissauru is a shithole that is also a neighbor to South Veleria. It's not quite that unrealistic.

Bissauru is based on Equatorial Guinea, in short it's a functional state, kinda, sorta. Not really a big supplier to the Astarian market.