SDN World 3 Country Claiming

[Dark Hellion]

Yup, we worked it out I think. I am waiting on a response but I'll take Angola and I think I'll get a chunk of Zambia and he'll take another chunk which he already claimed. Crisis averted.
BTW, I'll trade you diamonds for polar bears...

[TimothyC]

Updated Union of South African States map:

[Dark Hellion]

Ok, so I am going to try to come up with a working points scheme for the Republic of Angola.

Population: 1 (I think I have like 10 million or so... I think this is good for a 1)
Home Territory: 4 (I'm twice your size France, suck it!)
Colonies: 2 (I control a decent chunk of Zambia [nearly 250,000 km^2)
Industry: 3 (I am industrializing but don't have the populace to support major manufacturing)
Economy: 3 (Again, I have plentiful natural resources but lack the populace to exploit it)
Infrastructure: 4 (After extensive investment by Europe during the 1880's and continued reinvestment during the early 1900s)
Standing Military: 3 (typical)
Army Focus: 2 (I don't think i have enough people to support much more)
Reserves = 14% of population [140,000 in reserve]
Navy Focus: 2 +1 for industry
Air Focus: 3 (I am totally up on these flying contraptions)

I have three points to auction off in anyone wants it.

I like this set-up if everyone else is ok with this.

Edit: Misread the stats, only 1 in pop.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Alright, for the Kingdom of Spain I'm thinking a point setup like this:

Population: 1 (only 22,200,700 or so at home, around 1,771,000 in overseas territories from what I can determine) (going by the 1 = 25m Pop. setup here)
Home Territory: 3 (about 505,990 sq. Km)
Colonial Territory: 3 (Uruguay, Western Sahara, Spanish Morocco, Canaries, Equatorial Guinea, around 510,215 sq. Km total)
Industry: 3
Economy: 3
Infrastructure: 4
Standing Military Limit: 3
Naval Focus: 3 (+1 from Industry) (Will be looking to help from Germany to rebuild the Armada)
Army Focus: 3 (14% Reserves from 7 points in Economy and Infrastructure)
Air Focus: 2

Yes, I'm only using 28 points there, I don't think I'll be spending more than that as it just doesn't fit realistically with my view of Spain after it has languished for decades as a power and such. How does the above allocation look?

Reading back through this Thread, though, I think I may have missed something on both Uruguay and Gibraltar. In the case of the former, I believe Raj was planning to have Uruguay and Paraguay exist as satellite states of his Chile/Argentina nation. Is this the case? If so I'd be willing to give it up if he intends to claim it.

In the case of Gibraltar, is it still in the hands of the British? It was mentioned that, as Britain's interests in the Med (save for passage through the Suez, I suppose) no longer exist, they may have given it up. If it is up for grabs, I would like to add it to my current claims if no one objects.

[TimothyC]

"When the original South African Constitution was written in 1893, the issue of black and female suffrage was addressed by only opening it up to land owners. While there was no minimum level of land ownership established, this was not even noticed as a potential problems by the rich white upper class, until 1898, when the first of the co-ops were established by poor white city dwellers. The Co-ops would purchase land collectively, and then distribute the parcels, some times as small as a single square meter. As soon as these newly emancipated citizens, began to vote, the upper class took notice and the case DerBund vs. Durban Freestate came before the constitutional court. The court eventually decided that, because there was no minimum requirement of land ownership in the Constitution, such a requirement could not be established without a constitutional convention. This killed the movement for a minimum requirement as the middle class, (which had little stake in the original case), moved against the new proposals out of fear that the minimum level would be set so high that they themselves would lose the right to vote. Following this decision, many more co-ops were established, with the first majority black co-op coming into being in 1901. Today more than 65% of the total population of the Union of South African States has the right to vote, and turnout in most elections if roughly 75%."
-Exurb from the Encyclopedia Africa (1924)

[Norade]

Points Distribution
Population: 2
-50 million citizens, unlike in reality Portugal grew her homelands rapidly during the rebuild and refocusing of her power after the earthquake the leveled Lisbon, though they have started to slow immigration in recent years to avoid over crowding of port cities
Territory: 1
-92,000 sq. kilometers
Colonies: 0
-None, they were lost after the earthquake the ruined Lisbon and forced them into a time of rebuilding
Industry: 4
-Again, unlike in reality Portugal rebuilt after Lisbon and focused heavily on shipyards which have now expanded into vehicle exports, and machinery as major export items
Economy: 4
-Once manufacturing took off in Portugal the small country ran a surplus and managed to build a cash reserve that is among the best in the world
Infrastructure: 4
-The terrain means that it was easy to connect the nation with rail and highways and transport from port to port by ferry is easily found, however aside from a few spur lines and paved if unimpressive highways the interior is not as easy to move through.
Standing Military Limit: 3
-Portugal has a strong standing professional army to protect her wealth
Naval Focus: 5
-With everything at her coastline a strong navy is important to Portugal
Army Focus: 4
-Portugal has a professional army with decent leadership, with her industry Portugal is attempting to be at the forefront of arm and artillery
Air Focus: 3
-Her air force is growing though at this time a it is seen as secondary to her navy and army, her planes are solidly built yet uninspired compared to a leding nation

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Norade, I think you need a total of 12 points in population, colonial territory, economy and infrastructure before you go on to 4 points in Industry. That may change, because of an issue I just highlighted to Steve.

For the moment, point distribution rules are as follows: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=225

I believe the colonial territory points have been tweaked as well. Not sure where that is.

[Steve]

Points Distribution
Population: 2
-50 million citizens, unlike in reality Portugal grew her homelands rapidly during the rebuild and refocusing of her power after the earthquake the leveled Lisbon, though they have started to slow immigration in recent years to avoid over crowding of port cities
Territory: 1
-92,000 sq. kilometers
Colonies: 0
-None, they were lost after the earthquake the ruined Lisbon and forced them into a time of rebuilding
Industry: 4
-Again, unlike in reality Portugal rebuilt after Lisbon and focused heavily on shipyards which have now expanded into vehicle exports, and machinery as major export items
Economy: 4
-Once manufacturing took off in Portugal the small country ran a surplus and managed to build a cash reserve that is among the best in the world
Infrastructure: 4
-The terrain means that it was easy to connect the nation with rail and highways and transport from port to port by ferry is easily found, however aside from a few spur lines and paved if unimpressive highways the interior is not as easy to move through.
Standing Military Limit: 3
-Portugal has a strong standing professional army to protect her wealth
Naval Focus: 5
-With everything at her coastline a strong navy is important to Portugal
Army Focus: 4
-Portugal has a professional army with decent leadership, with her industry Portugal is attempting to be at the forefront of arm and artillery
Air Focus: 3
-Her air force is growing though at this time a it is seen as secondary to her navy and army, her planes are solidly built yet uninspired compared to a leding nation

You can't have 4 industry with just 2 population, plus to have 4 industry you must have 12 overall in Pop, Colonies, Economy, and Infrastructure, with a minimum 3 pop and 3 infrastructure.

[Steve]

http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/SDN_World_3_Ruleset

Added the enhanced rules to the wiki entry.

[K. A. Pital]

The Imperial / Republican Korean Navy (Beowulf) is what shall receive the Russian trophy battleships, and the RJW in this timeline is the Russo Korean War.

Just wanted to make it clear to Zor that he's not getting some RJW trophies just by virtue of being Japan.

Also, all ships re-sold to Russia by Japan prior to 1917 are likewise pre-sold back to Russia prior to 1917 by Korea, so that the general composition of the Russian Navy in 1917 does not change.

Stas, how would you like to clarify the border? I imagine in the north the border's somewhere around the Latvian/Estonian border, but further south?

I can grant you territory that is outside the IRL 1925 borders of the USSR. No further claims on my territory.

P.S. Norse, if you have questions on Yarmolchuk's ball train, I'll answer of course.

[Norade]

I was going purely off the wiki, I didn't know that there were more rules.

[Slacker]

I can grant you territory that is outside the IRL 1925 borders of the USSR. No further claims on my territory.

I totally missed this at first. You changed your avatar.

Okay by me, I'll look at the map and figure that out, I figure that generally means the old eastern border of Poland and Lithuania/Latvia then? Not sure exactly where the border was in the south, I'll go look at a map.

*edit*

So, this border, just about?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... a_1939.svg

Plus Lithuania and Latvia? I figure Estonia gives your port facilities on the Baltic some buffer zone, and the Poles would've been more concerned with fortifying the approaches around Riga and not advancing more into territory they never really owned in the first place.

Make sense? I didn't recall any territorial changes between '25 and '39, and finding a 1939 map is much easier than a 1925 map.

[Norade]

Points Distribution
Population: 3
-75 million citizens, unlike in reality Portugal grew her homelands rapidly during the rebuild and refocusing of her power after the earthquake the leveled Lisbon, though they have started to slow immigration in recent years to avoid over crowding of port cities in the mainland and are encouarging increased settlement in their South American holding
Territory: 1
-92,000 sq/km - Mainland and outlaying islands
Colonies: 2
-259,000 sq/km - French Guyana and Uruguay assuming that they are unclaimed
Industry: 4
-Again, unlike in reality Portugal rebuilt after Lisbon and focused heavily on shipyards which have now expanded into vehicle exports, and machinery as major export items (180pts/3mo, size limit 60kt)
Economy: 4
-Once manufacturing took off in Portugal the small country ran a surplus and managed to build a cash reserve that is among the best in the world (100% Deficit spending in war/emergency)
Infrastructure: 4
-The terrain means that it was easy to connect the nation with rail and highways and transport from port to port by ferry is easily found, however aside from a few spur lines and paved if unimpressive highways the interior is not as easy to move through. (Moves soldiers and goods by train)
Standing Military Limit: 3
-Portugal has an average professional military to defend her shores
Naval Focus: 3 + 2 from Industry
-With everything at her coastline a strong navy is important to Portugal, they have one of the best navies in the world (50 capital ships, 350 ship navy in total. Total capital ship tonnage may not exceed 1,5 million standard tons tonnage, total bb tonnage may not exceed more than 1 million standard tons)
Army Focus: 3
-Portugal has a professional army with decent leadership, with her industry Portugal is attempting to be at the forefront of arm and artillery (600,000 soldiers, +8% of population as reserve soldiers)
Air Focus: 3
-Her air force is growing though at this time a it is seen as secondary to her navy and army, her planes are solidly built yet uninspired compared to a leading nation (You have 360 aircraft)

I'm not 100% sure if I can support such a large navy, but cutting Naval focus to 2 and raising something else seemed stupid so maybe I'm somewhere in between.

[K. A. Pital]

Slacker, that works, with the caveat that the territories of Western Belorussia (Brest, Novogrudok, Pinsk, etc.) were only recently acquired by you during the 1917-1920 Russo-Polish border conflict, for it makes no sense for them to be a part of Poland historically. Let's say the USSR after a period of skirmishes and border offensives conceded them for the fear of involving itself into a major war which was just barely averted in 1915.

All other territories can be yours from the 1800s thanks to incompetent Tsars.

[Norseman]

P.S. Norse, if you have questions on Yarmolchuk's ball train, I'll answer of course.

Well would that thing even work properly in full size? Seriously the USSR had a lot of very whacky things going on... but then again I wonder if the Tsar Tank could be turned into a viable design, that too was very whacky.

As for navies Russia is in deep do do IMHO, after all Brazil needs only one navy, while the Russians need four (Black Sea, Baltic, Barents Sea, and Pacific), all of which are somewhat important locales but a war in one can easily deny reinforcements from the others.

[K. A. Pital]

Well yeah, the Russian Navy is broken down between small theatres. But in each theatre, the Navy will be quite powerful nonetheless

Well would that thing even work properly in full size?

Yes, the maquette did work, I don't think there was much infeasible about it working (except, of course, laying track and the strain on the constructions)... might be that wearout on the balltrain would be immens.

[Steve]

Hrm.... with nobody claiming Canada, I've thought about, hee hee.... I think I shall lay claim on Saskatchewan for Cascadia. If there are objections I will hear them out and let them determine my claim' standing.

[Norseman]

By the way I have a question for the various players here, does your nation have prohibition? Do you ban certain narcotics?

EDIT: Brazil for instance bans certain hard drugs (cocaine and heroin), but being a socialist nation there really isn't much call for such drugs. Alcohol and marijuana and certain other native concoctions remain legal.

[Thanas]

By the way I have a question for the various players here, does your nation have prohibition? Do you ban certain narcotics?

Opium, cocaine, marijuana etc. are all banned.

Allowed is tobacco, alcohol etc.

[Thanas]

Points Distribution
Population: 3
-75 million citizens, unlike in reality Portugal grew her homelands rapidly during the rebuild and refocusing of her power after the earthquake the leveled Lisbon, though they have started to slow immigration in recent years to avoid over crowding of port cities in the mainland and are encouarging increased settlement in their South American holding

I am going to call bullshit on this one. Portugal IRL can only support 8 million people and you have it support the number of Germany on 1925 technology.

[Norade]

Points Distribution
Population: 3
-75 million citizens, unlike in reality Portugal grew her homelands rapidly during the rebuild and refocusing of her power after the earthquake the leveled Lisbon, though they have started to slow immigration in recent years to avoid over crowding of port cities in the mainland and are encouraging increased settlement in their South American holding

I am going to call bullshit on this one. Portugal IRL can only support 8 million people and you have it support the number of Germany on 1925 technology.

I would care a little more about that if I wasn't forced to take a nation I didn't particularity want. Besides, I should be able to fit 75 million people into 350,000 sq./km (Hint, that's the same as modern Germany) if I use my colonies to house some of them and as sources of food to support a densely packed mainland. Would it be optimal, no, do I expect some other penalties, yes. I don't care to play a nation that can't develop because I need land that isn't available and I'll deal with the issue of having a high population density and I'm sure that even with 1920's tech I can deal with a population density of 214/km^2 if worse off modern Rwanda can cope with a density of 379.6/km^2.

[Dark Hellion]

I think perhaps we should tweak population into more of a population density or an urbanization number. Very few countries manage to hit even a 3 on the population chart in 1925. France with 40 million only hits a 2. Germany only had 63 million. We should probably change it otherwise most European countries won't actually be able to support the level of industrialization they should by all rights have, or we have to go with crazily a historical populations like Norade did.

I would also like to point out that as it is in the wiki only 7 modern day countries would qualify for a 4 in Territory size (India, Argentina, Kazakhstan, the Sudan, Algeria, Congo and Greenland) and France, the country upheld as a 3 would fall 50,000 km^2 short of being a 3. This seems against the intention as countries with the territory of two or three of the bigger European countries globbed together would still only be a three. Land area is kinda tricky because the top 6 are all each bigger than any two of the next five combined. Hell, the top six combined are the bigger than the next 30! countries combined. Weird but true.

A little nitpicky I know, but I think we can be a bit persnickety with these kinds of stats if we are going to have battleships that are engineered as completely sea worthy and ready to be laid into drydock.

[Thanas]

Mainland Portugal has an area of 92.000 km².

That area looks like this. Link.

You really can't house more many people with that. Your colonies are also not really prime real estate. So while in general, 250km² does not sound that bad at first glance, once you take a look at the available real estate that figure skyrockets. For Portugal, assuming 100% of the land would be usable, that would give you a density of several hundreds per km² and that is assuming you hour 2/3 of your population in the colonies. In the colonies, this gets even worse. Uruguay is not developed and has only gotten 3 million today. French Guyana has a total of 277.000 today.

Even if we assume that both are a lot more developed than they are today, you would still have to house the majority in Portugal. And even a figure of 50 million in Portugal would still give you a population density of 543/km² and that assumes that 100% of Portugal is usable, which is not the case.

This would mean that in the usable areas, you would have a density of 7-800/km². This is 3-4 time the modern density of modern Germany.


Also, note that mainland spain has a population of 22 million only.

[Norade]

Yeah, it's sort of absurd that I had to boost my population so high to represent a rapidly industrializing nation who's small population is based on exporting well made machinery for other goods. Good thing the frame work allowed me to go with my nation the way I had pictured it...

[Norseman]

Yeah, it's sort of absurd that I had to boost my population so high to represent a rapidly industrializing nation who's small population is based on exporting well made machinery for other goods. Good thing the frame work allowed me to go with my nation the way I had pictured it...

Portugal traditionally had huge African colonies, I'm sure there's still big ass chunks of Africa that are available to you, why don't we just give you lot that and the colonial possessions can make up for a lack of population?