SDN Wars: A Galaxy Divided: OOC

[darthkommandant]

I would like to accept the trade pact proposed by Thanas. So do I make an IC post saying I accept?

[Mr Bean]

If you don't want to play it up attach it to some other in-game post your going to make, a simple OOC:DK accepts Trade pact with Thanas.

[Karmic Knight]

OOB revision has started right now.

Meanwhile, I would like to offer trade pacts to Darthkommandant and Karmic Knight.

I'll accept the Trade Pact, and I'll put my OOB in list form before I go to sleep., edit: and factoring in upkeep.

Also, does anyone mind if I use Borsk Fey'lya and some of the other named Bothans?

[Mr Bean]

Also, does anyone mind if I use Borsk Fey'lya and some of the other named Bothans?

Most of the main characters are supposed to be dead, this should included Borsk dieing on the attack on Imperial Center, who are else are you thinking of using?

[Karmic Knight]

Most of the main characters are supposed to be dead, this should included Borsk dieing on the attack on Imperial Center, who are else are you thinking of using?

Specifically, only Traest Kre'fey, who would only appear later in the game, but I would like to give myself the option of being able to pull Bothan officials to populate the Spynet out of Wookieepeidia.

[Mr Bean]

Most of the main characters are supposed to be dead, this should included Borsk dieing on the attack on Imperial Center, who are else are you thinking of using?

Specifically, only Traest Kre'fey, who would only appear later in the game, but I would like to give myself the option of being able to pull Bothan officials to populate the Spynet out of Wookieepeidia.

Traest should be the equivalent of an LT at this point and is well placed for being alive, the mods have the call on that. But my own personal opinion he should be fine.

[Thanas]

Also, does anyone mind if I use Borsk Fey'lya and some of the other named Bothans?

Borsk has been turned into Bothan steak.

Honestly, just think of it as this way:
- is it a major Imp/rebel character from the books/movies? Then instant death.

If not:
- was your character high up in Alliance/Imperial hierarchy at the time? Chances are he/she is dead unless there was any reason for him/her not being on Coruscant.
- Is your character a member of the military? Is he attached to central command? If so, chances are he is dead.


Meanwhile, really ask yourself if you want to use Traest Kre'fey at all - the man is a moron of the highest grade, like managing to have his flagship stolen from him due to sheer arrogance.

[Thanas]

Sadly, it looks like Coyote didn't get to add a lot of rules we have decided upon. Therefore, OOB review cannot continue as ATM, almost everything is in violation of some rules, as for example:

The grand total of experimental and advanced fighters may not exceed a reasonable amount. Currently, the mods have agreed that experimental and advanced fighters may not form more than 25% of your ship-stationed fighter forces. Do not try to circumvent this by stationing experimental or advanced units planetside, they will still count as ship-stationed forces for the purpose of assessing that limit.

That limit will be reassessed in six years game time.

[Siege]

Before we go any further I'd like to see a comprehensive list of 'experimental and advanced' fighters, and question whether Thanas' latest post means there is now a further distinction between 'experimental and advanced' and 'heavy' starfighters. If so I'd further like to know what constitutes a 'heavy' starfighter as well.

[Thanas]

Before we go any further I'd like to see a comprehensive list of 'experimental and advanced' fighters, and question whether Thanas' latest post means there is now a further distinction between 'experimental and advanced' and 'heavy' starfighters. If so I'd further like to know what constitutes a 'heavy' starfighter as well.

It looks like I will have to do all the work by myself.


The distinction between heavy and advanced is one of classification, not of cost. If you do not find one of your fighters on the list, compare them to the baselines.

COST:

Older model starfighters: 1 points per wing (Z-95s, Eta-IIs, Cloakshapes, etc)
Standard starfighters: 2 points per wing (X-Wings, TIEs, etc)
Advanced/Specialized starfighters: 4 points per wing (TIE Avenger ["Advanced"], Scimitar, A-Wing)
Experimental: 6 points per squadron (TIE Defender, TIE Phantom, Missile Boat)
A "Wing" is 72 fighters.

Fighter list:

Older models:
C-73 Tracker
Droid Vulture
Droid Tri-Fighter
Eta-2 Actis Interceptor
Delta-7 Aethersprite
ARC-170
V-19 Torrent
Alpha-3 Nimbus V-Wing
Z-95 Headhunter
Razor
Toscan 8-Q
KDY Cloakshape

Standard:
Authority IRD
T-Wing
X-Wing
Y-Wing
TIE Fighter
TIE Interceptor
TIE Bomber
Assault Gunboat
Supa
TL-118 Starhammer
I-7 Howlrunner
SoroSuub Planetary Defender
Tapani Cooperative Manta

Advanced
A-wing
B-wing
V38 assault fighter
TIE Avenger ("Advanced")
TIE Hunter
TIE Aggressor
TIE Scimitar Assault Bomber
TIE Talon Capship Assault
A-9 Vigilance Interceptor
Preybird

Experimental
E-wing
TIE Defender
TIE Phantom (cloak)
K-wing

[Mr Bean]

Going to have to agree as well since Coyote's current sticky list shows only Imperial fighters as advanced or experimental which means the only forces with advanced fighters are the Imperials. So the Republic forces can load up on A,B,E-Wings to their hearts content.

[Thanas]

Going to have to agree as well since Coyote's current sticky list shows only Imperial fighters as advanced or experimental which means the only forces with advanced fighters are the Imperials. So the Republic forces can load up on A,B,E-Wings to their hearts content.

Look above. We changed that.

EDIT: I'll also wade through the ships list.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Why is the E-wing considered experimental? It was launched sometime during Thrawn's invasion.

Regarding the list, I think there should be a clear distinction between an expensive heavy fighter, and an experimental. Missile Gunboats and TIE Defenders are already combat proven, just bloody expensive even when compared against X-wings and B-wings.

[Thanas]

New ship list, made by RogueIce with a few tweaks by me:

Imperial

Gunships: 2 Points
Corellian---------------- Length: 120 m (2 mos)

Corvettes: 2 Points
CR-90-------------------- Length: 150 m (2 mos)
Assassin----------------- Length: 150 m (2 mos)

Frigates: 3 Points
Lancer--------------------Length: 250 m (6 mos)
Nebulon B-----------------Length: 300 m (6 mos)
Nebulon B (med.)----------Length: 300 m (8 mos)
Nebulon BII---------------Length: 253 m (6 mos)

Dreadnoughts: 4 points
Dreadnought-------------- Length: 600 m (8 mos)
Dreadnought II ---------- Length: 600 m (8 mos)

Cruisers, Light: 4 Points
Vibre ------------------- Length: 100 m (2 mos)
Bayonet ----------------- Length: 200 m (4 mos)
1000-class--------------- Length: 300 m (4 mos)
Carrack------------------ Length: 350 m (6 mos)
Strike------------------- Length: 450 m (8 mos)
Eidolon (Strike mod.)---- Length: 450 m (9 mos)

Cruisers, Medium: 5 points
Broadside---------------- Length: 500 m (8 mon)
Gladiator---------------- Length: 500 m (8 mon)
Enforcer----------------- Length: 598 m (8 mon)
Vindicator--------------- Length: 600 m (8 mon)
Chariot------------------ Length: 600 m (10 mos)
Interdictor (grav)------- Length: 600 m (10 mos)
Bulk--------------------- Length: 600 m (8 mos)

Cruisers, Medium: 6 points
Ecliptic-II -----------------Length: 752 m (10 mos)
Modular Taskforce-------- Length: 1150 m (10 mos)

Star Destroyers, Light: 8 points
Victory I---------------- Length: 900 m (10 mos)
Victory II--------------- Length: 900 m (10 mos)

Star Destroyers: 12 points
Imperial I--------------- Length: 1600 m (12 mos)
Imperial II-------------- Length: 1600 m (12 mos)
Tector------------------Length: 1600 m (14 mos)
Dominator (grav)--------- Length: 1600 m (14 mos)

Star Destroyers, Command: 15 points
Allegiance--------------- Length: 2200 m (14 mos)

Star Destroyers, Heavy: (You must command at least 5 "Major" or higher worlds to build these)
Eradicator--------------- Length: 3,500 m (16 mos, (20 points)
Star Lord---------------- Length: 3,900 m (16 mos, 22 points)
Overlord----------------- Length: 6,200 m (18 mos, 45 points)
Dark Sky----------------- Length: 7,400 m (20 mos, 60 points)
The player is limited to building 8 of these in total.

Star Destroyers, Super: (You must command at least 10 "Major" or higher worlds to build these)
Vengeance---------------- Length: 10,000 m (24 mos, 120 points)
"Super" series----------- Length: 19,000 m (50 mos, 220 points)
Eclipse------------------ Length: 16,000 m (80 mos, 300 points)
The Player is limited to building four of these in total.

Planetary Assault Platform: 150 points (You must command at least 10 "Major" or higher worlds to build these)
Torpedo Sphere----------- Diam.: 1900 m (40 mos)

Assault Carriers:
Acclamator--------------- Length: 752 m (7 points, 10 mos)
Doomgiver---------------- Length: 1800 m (10 points, 16 mos)

Starfighter Carriers: 10 points
Escort------------------- Length: 500 m (8 mos)
Venator SD--------------- Length: 1137 m (10 mos)

Rebel/NR

Gunships: 2 points
Corellian----------------- Length: 120 m (2 mos)

Corvettes: 2 points
CR-90--------------------- Length: 150 m (2 mos)
FarStar Pocket Carrier---- Length: 150 m (3 mos)
Assassin------------------Length: 150m (2 mos)

Frigates: 3 points
Corona---------------------Length: 275 m (6 mos)
Nebulon B------------------Length: 300 m (6 mos)
Nebulon B (med)------------Length: 300 m (8 mos)
Nebulon BII----------------Length: 253 m (6 mos)

Dreadnoughts: 4 points
Dreadnought--------------- Length: 600 m (8 mos)
Rebel Assault 'Cruiser'----Length: 700 m (8 mos)

Cruisers, Light: 4 points
1000-class---------------- Length: 300 m (4 mos)
Strike-------------------- Length: 450 m (8 mos)

Cruisers, Medium: 5 points
Bulwark------------------- Length: 500 m (8 mos)
Enforcer------------------ Length: 598 m (8 mos)
Bulk---------------------- Length: 600 m (8 mos)
Majestic ----------------- Length: 700 m (10 mos)


Cruisers, Heavy: 6 points
CC-9600 ------------------ Length: 850 m (10 mos)
Triumph ------------------ Length: 900 m (10 mos)
Command Assault ---------- Length: 1000 m (10 mos)
Modular Taskforce--------- Length: 1150 m (10 mos)


Mon Cal Designs: buildable only when licensed by MonCal or ordered there.
MonCal Corvette (2 pt)--Length: 200 m (2 mos)
MC30 Frigate (3 pt)--Length: 300 m (6 mos)
MC40 Light Cruiser (5 pt)--Length: 500 m (8 months)
MC80 Star Cruisers (12 pt) L: 1200-2400 m (12-16 mos)
MC90 Star Cruisers (12 pt)- Length: 1255 m (12 months)
Cruiser, Home One (15 pt)- Lengths: 3200-3800 m (18 mos) You must command at least 5 major or higher worlds to built this one.


Star Destroyers, Light: 8 points
Victory I------------ Length: 900 m (10 mos)
Victory II----------- Length: 900 m (10 mos)

Republic------------- Length: 1250 m (10 mos)
Recusant------------Length: 1200 (10 mos)

Star Destroyers, heavy:
Nebula/Defender------------- Length: 1040 m (10 pts, 12 mos)
Dauntless----------------- Length: 1500 m (12 pts, 12 mos)

Battleships, small:
Bulwark (40 pts)----------- Length: 3501 m (16 months) (You must command at least 5 "Major" or higher worlds to build these)
Mediator (60 pts)---- Length: 8000 m (21 mos) (You must command at least 10 major or higher worlds to build these)
Player is limited to build 8 in total

Viscount (210 pts)---------- L: 17km (50 mos) (You must command at least 10 "Major" or higher worlds to build these. Player is limited to building 4 in total)

Assault Carriers: 7 points
Acclamator---------------- Length: 752 m (10 months)

Starfighter Carrier, Escort: 8 pts
Quasar Fire--------------- Length: 340 m (8 months)

Starfighter Carriers: 10 pts
Liberator----------------- Length: 800 m (10 months)
Endurance----------------- Length: 1040 m (12 months)
Venator SD---------------- Length: 1137 m (10 months)

CIS

Corvettes: 2 points
Marauder------------------ Length: 195 m (4 mos)
Sabre--------------------- Length: 195 m (4 mos)
Hardcell------------------ Length: 220 m (4 mos)

Frigates: 4 points
Munificent---------------- Length: 825 m (8 mos)

Frigate, Heavy: 6 points
Presidente---------------- L: 500m/W: 1km (8 mos)

Destroyers: 8 points
Providence---------------- Length: 1088 m (10 mos)
Recusant------------------ Length: 1187 m (10 mos)

Star Destroyers, Light: 8 points
Victory------------------- Length: 900 m (10 mos)

Carriers: 15 points
Gunray (Leviathan)-------- Diam.: 3170 m (16 mos)
(This is just a Trade Fed ring ship devoted to carrying swarms of fighters)

Small Battleships: 20 points (You must command at least 5 major or higher worlds to built one, player limited to building 8 in total)
Lucrehulk class ----------------- Diam.: 3170 m (16 mos)
Droid Control Ship--------- Diam.: 3170 m (16 mos)(-12 guns)

Battleships: You must command at least 10 major or higher worlds to built these.
Subjugator-class heavy cruiser---------- Length: 8km (20 mos, 60 points), Player limited to building 6 in total

Other Common designs:
Non-aligned worlds:

Non aligned worlds

Gunships: 2 points
Corellian---------------- Length: 120 m (2 mos)

Corvettes: 2 points
Assassin-class ---------- Length: 150 m (2 mos)
CR-90-------------------- Length: 150 m (2 mos)
Y-Head ------------------ Length: 165 m (2 mos)
Marauder----------------- Length: 195 m (4 mos)

Frigates: 3 points
Nebulon B-----------------Length: 300 m (6 mos)
Nebulon B (med)-----------Length: 300 m (8 mos)
Nebulon BII---------------Length: 253 m (6 mos)
Nova (Hapan)--------------Length: 500 m (8 mos)

Dreadnoughts: 4 points
Dreadnought-------------- Length: 600 m (8 mos)

Cruisers, Light: 4 points
Republic----------------- Length: 115 m (2 mos)
1000-class--------------- Length: 300 m (4 mos)
Carrack------------------ Length: 350 m (6 mos)
Strike------------------- Length: 450 m (8 mos)

Cruisers: 5 points
Bulk--------------------- Length: 600 m (8 mos)

Cruisers, 6 points:
Modular Taskforce-------- Length: 1150 m (10 mos)

Battle Cruisers: 6 points
Battle Dragon (Hapan)----- Diam.: 500 m (12 mos)


Cruisers, Heavy: 12 points
Dauntless---------------- Length: 1500 m (12 mos)

Star Destroyers, Light: 8 points
Victory I---------------- Length: 900 m (10 mos)
Victory II--------------- Length: 900 m (10 mos)

Battleships: 30 points (note: 5 major or above worlds required, limit of 8 total)
Bulwark------------------ Length: 3501 m (16 mos)

Assault Carriers: 7 points
Acclamator--------------- Length: 752 m (10 mos)

Starfighter Carriers, Escort: 8 points
Quasar Fire-------------- Length: 340 m (8 mos)

Starfighter Carriers: 10 points
Escort------------------- Length: 500 m (8 mos)
Liberator---------------- Length: 800 m (10 mos)
Tapani Cooperative------- Length: 500 m (8 mos)

[Thanas]

Why is the E-wing considered experimental? It was launched sometime during Thrawn's invasion.

No, it first appeared in Dark Empire. Thus, experimental. And it is also damm expensive.

Regarding the list, I think there should be a clear distinction between an expensive heavy fighter, and an experimental. Missile Gunboats and TIE Defenders are already combat proven, just bloody expensive even when compared against X-wings and B-wings.

They are considered experimental due to their cost, the fact that neither entered widespread service (or only did 20 years after their launch) etc. And I hate to be all mod-mightly, but we have got to start somewhere and there is agreement among all the mods to classify the two as experimental.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Few nitpicks:

1. Defender/Nebula SDs are ISDIIs in their own right. Cheaper maybe, but certainly not classified as a Light Destroyer. Shorten the construction time to 10 months perhaps.

2. Acclaimators should be cheaper or else there wouldn't be much justification to even have them. Why build an Acclaimator when a Venator, though with a slightly smaller troop complement, can do so much more?

[Thanas]

Few nitpicks:

1. Defender/Nebula SDs are ISDIIs in their own right. Cheaper maybe, but certainly not classified as a Light Destroyer. Shorten the construction time to 10 months perhaps.

The defender class is utterly wanked due to the horrible Cracken's threat dossier. WEG-wank to the max. There is no way a ship that is only about half the mass can defeat an ISDII, while carrying nearly the same amount of fighters. I believe it is a great anti-starship warship along the lines of the VSDII, but certainly not up to the ISDII.

Also, they took notoriously long to build. Over 9 years, the NR only built 10.

2. Acclaimators should be cheaper or else there wouldn't be much justification to even have them. Why build an Acclaimator when a Venator, though with a slightly smaller troop complement, can do so much more?

Because the Acclamator is the ideal ground transport. But I'll shorten the cost to 7pts.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The defender class is utterly wanked due to the horrible Cracken's threat dossier. WEG-wank to the max. There is no way a ship that is only about half the mass can defeat an ISDII, while carrying nearly the same amount of fighters. I believe it is a great anti-starship warship along the lines of the VSDII, but certainly not up to the ISDII.

The Defender traded a number of things for it to be smaller.

1. It has only 1600 troops, versus 25000 for an ISD and a host of other ground assault equipment and 3 prefab bases.

2. It has only 6 months of consumables versus 6 years in an ISD.

3. Point defence weapons wise, it seems it carries 10 or more less of each (40 heavy turbos, 40 light turbos and 20 ions etc. instead of 50 in an ISDII). It may even have less turrets since the ship was optimised for forward fire rather than broadsides which Imperial ships favour.

4. NR ships are known to use more automation than their Imperial counterparts.

5. It carries a lot less spacecraft. Up to 60 starfighters and shuttles only

So I don't think they are over wanked, and quite frankly, if we are going to consider established canon, it fits. Especially considering the cost and that the NR was deep in debt in those years. Personally, I regard the ship as more like a "Tectorised" version of the Venator with most of its volume allocated to ship generation power and a slightly more voluminous ship.

Also, they took notoriously long to build. Over 9 years, the NR only built 10.

This is the NR we are talking about, where a 105 ship 5th Fleet was considered huge.

No, it first appeared in Dark Empire. Thus, experimental. And it is also damm expensive.

Incorrect. It was stated in the Guide to Vehicles and Vessels that they were deployed in small numbers during the Thrawn campaign, often on escort duties. And yes they are expensive since they were using more advanced systems than contemporary fighters.

[Mr Bean]

Wait.... it carries less guns, masses less yet can still stand toe to toe with a far heavier ship? Unless it's uses magic if both ships are using the same level guns, same level power generation tech, the the smaller ship should be at a large disadvantage.

[Thanas]

The defender class is utterly wanked due to the horrible Cracken's threat dossier. WEG-wank to the max. There is no way a ship that is only about half the mass can defeat an ISDII, while carrying nearly the same amount of fighters. I believe it is a great anti-starship warship along the lines of the VSDII, but certainly not up to the ISDII.

The Defender traded a number of things for it to be smaller.

1. It has only 1600 troops, versus 25000 for an ISD and a host of other ground assault equipment and 3 prefab bases.

Those numbers are wrong. An ISD has 9700 numbers in troops, not 25.000.

2. It has only 6 months of consumables versus 6 years in an ISD.

Ah, but the cargo capacity of a nebula class is 15.000 tons vs. 36.000 tons. So if we compare the relative mass of the ship, it didn't reduce that much in cargo space.

3. Point defence weapons wise, it seems it carries 10 or more less of each (40 heavy turbos, 40 light turbos and 20 ions etc. instead of 50 in an ISDII). It may even have less turrets since the ship was optimised for forward fire rather than broadsides which Imperial ships favour.

That is using WEG numbers which are pretty bogus considering we know the ISDII armament from the movies.

Like Bean said, the Nebula makes no sense and is wanked.

4. NR ships are known to use more automation than their Imperial counterparts.

Source?

So I don't think they are over wanked, and quite frankly, if we are going to consider established canon, it fits. Especially considering the cost and that the NR was deep in debt in those years.

Very well. Since you are so canon-fixated, lets use the actual costs. Therefore, the Nebula will from now on cost 14 points while having the capacity of a 10points ship (as it is neither a dedicated carrier nor capable of ferrying one division).

Would you rather have that?

Also, they took notoriously long to build. Over 9 years, the NR only built 10.

This is the NR we are talking about, where a 105 ship 5th Fleet was considered huge.

I'm sorry, who is the one who wants to talk canon rather what makes sense?

Incorrect. It was stated in the Guide to Vehicles and Vessels that they were deployed in small numbers during the Thrawn campaign, often on escort duties. And yes they are expensive since they were using more advanced systems than contemporary fighters.

So what is your beef exactly?

I am getting a bit tired of all this bickering. I have now invested over 30 hours in checking, designing etc and quite frankly, I am high tempted to just use mod magic if that will get us started.

[RogueIce]

Sorry, I was out all day yesterday. Thanas, excellent work on the fighter list; definately organized far more clearly and simply than my haphazard attempt.

Also, please allow me to remind you all of something I said a bit ago:

Just note though that some things are likely to be determined by mod fiat in order to get this game going. Whether for virtue of simplicity, gameplay balance, or whatever other reason, you're just gonna have to live with it (and so will we, for that matter).

E-wings are the "high-end" New Republic fighter, thus they're most expensive. Don't get all caught up in the 'Experimental' tag, as it's simply a category and the main thing is the price. If you don't agree with it being most expensive too bad, but don't bother complaining about the Experimental tag as that's just there, more as a hold over but frankly I don't feel like changing category names.

As for the rest of it, remember gameplay balance. The points system is an abstraction, made to make things easier than calculating budgets and all that nonsense. It will not be perfect, but then nothing will be. This is just the easiest system I can think of, I haven't seen any better ideas, and at this point there's no sense scrapping everything and starting from scratch. So we just have to go for it.

I personally have no problems if ships are a bit more expensive than they should be. Prevents easy ship spam and such. My main concern would be if they're too cheap, or if they're far too expensive (like by 10 points too much, 3 points or whatever is fine).

And if we want to pull WEG stats out, we can go with ISDs as being "high end" ships and jack the price up accordingly. And Executor "nearly bankrupting" the Empire, and jack that price up obscenely, with corresponding increases to the other higher tier ships. If you want to go down that road.

Now, we agreed to have mods for this game, correct? That means that you'll have to live with what we say sometimes. That doesn't mean we'll be ruling with an iron fist or anything, but sometimes yes, we will have to lay down the law. Since I don't want to be in pre-game limbo forever, the ship lists are just going to be one of those times where we enforce by mod edict. Sorry, but we really need to get this game going, or it'll die stillborn. I don't think anybody wants that.

In summary, let me quote myself again:

So let's not get bogged down into arguments and flamewars before the game even gets off the ground, please?

There'll be plenty of time for that when the game starts, anyway.

And that's the key thing here: when the game starts. Let's focus on getting there, shall we?

[Thanas]

OOB review status:

Following OOBs have been approved:
RogueIce

Following OOBs have been reviewed and approved pending minor corrections:
SiegeTank
Master_Bearne
Shinn Langley Soryu
darthkommandant

Following OOBs have been reviewed:
Fingolfin_Noldor
Karmic Knight
Agent Sorchus

Following OOBs have been vetoed:
Czechmate

Following OOBs are currently being reviewed:
Mr Bean
Beowulf
DarthShady
Thanas
Coyote
AMT

Following OOBs can not be reviewed as they are not finished:
The Romulan Republic
Raj Ahten

[Mr Bean]

I'm going to have to redo my fighters considering the rule change. I have 3700 fighter capacity or so, 925 advanced fighters.

[Thanas]

I'll wait with your review until you have done so.

[Thanas]

So I have reviewed 9 OOBs. Enough for today, the rest will be reviewed tomorrow.