SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Lascaris]

Might want to include the Congo, or, since that might be sort of an NPC soon, me in those chats about Kenya.

Well, I basically just wanted to know whether the Congolese are going to continue the occupation or not.

Already mentioned it to Rogue put I'll put it here as well.

Cisplatina and South Africa both start out as Dutch colonies and are to a considerable degree Dutch descended. So it would be making sense for a considerable number of Dutch patriots to be immigrating to the two countries. This would be offeribg advantages to both sides. For the Germans and French on account of facing less resistance in the occupied areas than they would otherwise and for South Africa and Cisplatina on account of getting more people and some additional industry points out of the bargain.


On another though what happens to Karmic with the union of the Netherlands destroyed? Keeps going out of Tasmania? Or possibly Kenya?

[Lascaris]

The way I see it their legal argument is as follows:


3 is where you are wrong. For all intents and purposes, the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Kingdom of Belgium are successor states. Which means that as long as the dutch government does exist there - and it still does, it is now territory of said Kingdoms, which are part of the German Empire.

About as much as any of the puppet regimes Germany set up in WW2.

[Thanas]

We can deal with the minutiae once I figure out how much I actually gain, but I am not too opposed to some people getting additional immigrants from the Union. PM me once the exact details are done, ok?

[Norseman]

Anyway Karmic could do Kenya, if he gets immigrants and/or Kenya was a fairly developed area (I don't think he ever quite specified where exactly his population and industry was). Now obviously Kenya wouldn't be as good as the Netherlands, but with NPC Congo next door it would at least be a viable state, IMHO.

[RogueIce]

But if a player seems to be doing something obviously stupid to somebody in the know (like the above), that somebody should warn them and then the player should confirm that they really want to do that.

I have no problem with that. If somebody's doing something seemingly suicidal, a heads up of 'Are you sure you want to do this? Here's why it's probably not such a good idea' is a positive thing. Now, if you want to take the risk anyway, feel free. But I do agree, you should get fair warning if you're about to do something excessively risky that'd require almost a 16 roll for even minimal success.

[Thanas]

Anyway Karmic could do Kenya, if he gets immigrants and/or Kenya was a fairly developed area (I don't think he ever quite specified where exactly his population and industry was). Now obviously Kenya wouldn't be as good as the Netherlands, but with NPC Congo next door it would at least be a viable state, IMHO.

I offered him to set him up in the entirety of Timor if he would surrender. He did not take the offer. So no dice here.

EDIT: That said, I might be ameniable to a deal regarding Kenya.

[Czechmate]

So...how long, IC, was this Dutch-German War?

[Thanas]

Four days. Why?

[Czechmate]

Just curious. It took five times as long for the Germans to conquer Belgium in WW2 with proper motorized forces.

It took you four days with largely foot-mobile or horse-drawn forces. Thrice that much time I could understand, but just four days is ridiculously fast, even with the poorly-placed Dutch army and the loss of a third of it in Luxembourg.

Not that I really feel like debating it and making an OOC shitstorm about it, I just think it's inappropriately fast for the era.

[Thanas]

Just curious. It took five times as long for the Germans to conquer Belgium in WW2 with proper motorized forces.

It took you four days with largely foot-mobile or horse-drawn forces. Thrice that much time I could understand, but just four days is ridiculously fast, even with the poorly-placed Dutch army and the loss of a third of it in Luxembourg.

The advance was uncontested (unlike in WWII) except for the Dutch defense lines as outlined in the numerous posts above. And the fastest advance was done with Cavalry and motorized forces. By the time of the ceasefire, my troops had not even reached Brussels yet, btw.

[Czechmate]

History will remember it as the Four Day War.

[Thanas]

History will remember it as the Four Day War.

The German Empire prefers to think of it as the war of unification.

[Czechmate]

The German Empire prefers to think of it as the war of unification.

What's next, mister kaiser, now that you've assured German hegemony over western Europe?

[Norseman]

Guys I got some posts that involve .... well Mexico-Colombia... Germany... and a whole bunch of other things... but I haven't finished yet for various reasons... I am just hoping there will be a slow down over Christmas so I can get ajour.

[Thanas]

The German Empire prefers to think of it as the war of unification.

What's next, mister kaiser, now that you've assured German hegemony over western Europe?

Practically nothing, methinks. I want to buld some canals (a bigger, better situated Baltic-North Sea canal and the Rhein-Mein-Donau Canal) to get more trade going and to alllow my battleships to more easily pass into the Baltic and the North Sea, but I am not sure I can afford such massive projects right now. I am sure the conquest will come with heavy integration costs attached (mods are talking about it right now) and of course I got to defend the new colonies.
So that will keep me busy.

[Czechmate]

Speaking of new colonies; if you guys could list out what bits of the Dutch empire went to whom, I'll fix the map tonight so it's up-to-date.

[Thanas]

I'll PM it to you as soon as it is ready, but it currently is not. There may also be some changes to the German-French border (Bearne is getting the more french-speaking regions).

[RogueIce]

Guys I got some posts that involve .... well Mexico-Colombia... Germany... and a whole bunch of other things... but I haven't finished yet for various reasons... I am just hoping there will be a slow down over Christmas so I can get ajour.

At the moment, we're in a time freeze. Until I believe the 26th or something as we get caught up to August. So it's basically July 31st or something around there until...whenever.

EDIT: My bad. We're basically in a freeze to catch us up to 1 October 1925. The rough 'deadline' to that is December 26th, real time.

I understand the Holiday season may delay things, so don't take this as "Get it done now or face my merciless mod wrath" ultimatum, just kind of a plea to get things going so the game can go back on track.

And before people mention it, Unreal time has the problem that the stuff happening in it can influence others' actions and perhaps negate decisions otherwise made as the rest of us continued on. If the wars had kept up better the time freeze wouldn't be necessary, but as it stands... it is.

As it stands, Q4 will not begin until December 26th, next Saturday. This gives everyone a week, not counting inability to get online due to family festivities this Thursday and Friday, to get caught up. I hope this is sufficient.

[Siege]

Case in point the artillery situation here. Several of us me and Sea Skimmer included repeatedly pointed that the artillery brigades were corps not division level units. IMS I went as far as posting numbers/ types of guns for several divisions of the era. If post that you still go and put an artillery brigade per division what is the solution?

The solution would be to make a crystal clear list of generalized division types that people can have, and veto every OOB that does not conform to the list. Isn't that why we have a 'unit list' up in the rules section in the first place? And yet when push comes to shove people can still have pretty much whatever, meaning that those of us who don't know anything about these things are left in the dark, and will most likely end up with an order of battle that is bizarre from a military point of view. Meanwhile those of us who do know a thing or two are free to compose OOBs that are highly optimized against their preferred victims -- this is exactly the same thing that happened in SDNW #2 (anyone remember MkSheppard and his Bomarc / B-47 Swarm Of Doom?).

So to sum it up, we're making the same mistakes we made before. We should've stuck with 'cavalry divisions / infantry divisions / motorized divisions / whatever divisions', slapped a point label on each of those, and then slapped down everyone who started about 'triangular' or 'square' divisions or whatever-the-fuck. If you want to simplify it, then do so; if you don't, then don't. But right now we're stuck at this half-assed somewhere-in-between stage that's just no good, because it doesn't really address any of the issues with the old, and doesn't really grant any of the prophesied advantages of the new system.

I've never been to Egypt, or Kuwait, or Libya. My name isn't Lawrence of Arabia, and I never held a general's rank in the 1920s. I can just about conceive of the necessity of a lot of cavalry to cover the huge tracts of land I happen to have to defend, backed with garrisoned infantry at strategic spots like agricultural areas or important cities. What I do not have a fucking clue about, however, is how much damned heavy artillery, let alone siege artillery, I would realistically need for, oh say, launching an assault on Yemen, or defending against a French incursion of Libya. And yet from what I read people want me to quantify my types of artillery now. I don't know how many logistics personnel I need to support an assault in that direction either, and if others and I hadn't started yelling about that there's a fair chance we'd've been required to come up with a number for that too. Could I come up with an OOB that quantifies artillery at the corps level? I'm sure I could. Could I come up with a reasonable number of logistics personnel for the armies of Egypt? Given enough time, I'm reasonably sure I could do that too.

But that's not the point. The point is that I. Do. Not. Want. to do any of that. I want to play a game, a game that insofar as I'm concerned should revolve around diplomacy, a bit of RP'ing of the goings-on in one's nation, and the occasional skirmish which really does not have to be much more complicated than rock-paper-scissors. Because honestly, why does it have to be any more complicated than that? Does it really look like adding complexity is improving the game so far?

There, my ranting is done for the night; tirade mode = off and to finish with a fittingly nerdy SG-1 quote: I'm sorry, but that just happens to be how I feel about it. What do you think?

[loomer]

I'm essentially with the above - while I'm enjoying making up new small arms, thats mostly for flavour. I don't want to have to do a shit-ton of research to avoid utter failure.

Now, I don't mind plotting railways or taking a good hard look at Afghanistan's geography, but I DO mind having to carefully chip away every patch of rough stone.

[Lascaris]

The solution would be to make a crystal clear list of generalized division types that people can have, and veto every OOB that does not conform to the list. Isn't that why we have a 'unit list' up in the rules section in the first place? And yet when push comes to shove people can still have pretty much whatever, meaning that those of us who don't know anything about these things are left in the dark, and will most likely end up with an order of battle that is bizarre from a military point of view. Meanwhile those of us who do know a thing or two are free to compose OOBs that are highly optimized against their preferred victims -- this is exactly the same thing that happened in SDNW #2 (anyone remember MkSheppard and his Bomarc / B-47 Swarm Of Doom?).

And yet it is the opposite happening here so far. The people that can claim some knowledge have actually largely stuck to the standardized unit types... for the simple reason that said types were no different from the real life ones. The people not knowlegable OTOH have put in their OOBs every kind of mix up they could think about.

And yet from what I read people want me to quantify my types of artillery now.

Yes in the desperate attempt to convince people that "No your infantry division has its own artillery, really. You shouldn't have it hauling a whole heavy artillery brigade on top of that.

But that's not the point. The point is that I. Do. Not. Want. to do any of that. I want to play a game, a game that insofar as I'm concerned should revolve around diplomacy, a bit of RP'ing of the goings-on in one's nation, and the occasional skirmish which really does not have to be much more complicated than rock-paper-scissors. Because honestly, why does it have to be any more complicated than that?

Because Risk past the age of ten was boring?

[Lascaris]

Anyway Karmic could do Kenya, if he gets immigrants and/or Kenya was a fairly developed area (I don't think he ever quite specified where exactly his population and industry was). Now obviously Kenya wouldn't be as good as the Netherlands, but with NPC Congo next door it would at least be a viable state, IMHO.

I offered him to set him up in the entirety of Timor if he would surrender. He did not take the offer. So no dice here.

EDIT: That said, I might be ameniable to a deal regarding Kenya.

How... generous. The entirety of Timor. "Hello I with no provocation invade your 100 million large nation with the task of obliterating it but I'm so generous that if you give me 99 out of 100 million I'll let you keep the 1 million."

[Siege]

And yet it is the opposite happening here so far. The people that can claim some knowledge have actually largely stuck to the standardized unit types... for the simple reason that said types were no different from the real life ones. The people not knowlegable OTOH have put in their OOBs every kind of mix up they could think about.

... and how does standardizing division types not resolve this situation in a simple and expedient manner? You know, instead of pointless sniping you might want to address the actual point next time you deign to reply.

Because Risk past the age of ten was boring?

Oh, that's cute. The fact that you're even comparing this STGOD to a game whose sole goal is world domination speaks volumes by itself. But now that I have your attention anyway, would you perhaps care explain how cutting needless complexity somehow equals 'boring'?

[Steve]

Siege, that's why I included whole infantry divisions as purchasable units instead of just having everyone buying brigades and saying "Mix it as you want". Granted, the latter's around, but for those who don't feel like going into the minutiae of division formations you've got made-to-order divisions on the list for you. The main difference between a square division and a triangular one, at least as this game is set, is.... one has 4 brigades, the other 3. That's it. That just means a square division has more manpower or can hold slightly longer frontage. It also means it has to have a larger command structure to deal with the extra brigade compared to the triangular unit and you can only have 3 square divisions for 4 triangular ones. It's honestly a matter of one's individual tastes and how one might wish to RP their army, especially since they still have to "buy" the units like anyone else.

Also, the case with Ryan isn't saying you have to get a military expert to sign off on your army. Remember, Ryan didn't just say "My army is specialized in jungle fighting" and leave it like that. Had he done so, this debate wouldn't have happened. He actually tried to conceive of a system that he thought would be excellent at jungle fighting and implement it, without asking anyone if it made sense. When it came out that this system was flawed he was understandably upset, since this discovery has come in the midst of a war in which he's desperately fighting to protect his control of arguably the most important real-estate in the entire Hemisphere. But if he wanted something unique he really should have asked for feasibility. As it is, I did propose for him a system where his divisional arty brigades are in fact stocked with 105mm pieces, giving him a larger quantity of "light" artillery and field guns compared to standard divisions - which would have batteries of such weapons as organic to their forces - and his corps-level arty brigades would be 155mm and 200mm+ artillery pieces like in normal armies. Makes his armies a bitch to fight in prepared positions but, if you have the numbers and ability to outflank them, gives you a key advantage. Of course, heh, good luck effectively outflanking him in the jungle.

Also, I'd propose that because Ryan has the specialist brigade of light artillery matched to the two infantry brigades of his standard division, Colombian divisions have a greater quantity of anti-air armament than those of other countries, thus at least ameliorating his nation's most glaring weakness.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well, IMHO, if I get extra AAA, its only fair that I should pay for it as an extra unit, unless its included as part of the artillery brigade and counted against the total number of guns, since I already do that anyway.

If you've had a glance at my ORBAT recently, you'll notice that those brigades include two field air defense batteries containing a total of sixteen 80L60 AA guns as part of the 52 total guns or whatever its supposed to be. Now, bearing in mind that those can be used as anti-tank guns in a pinch if I understand things correctly, that shouldn't be a massive drain on total firepower but it gives them some flexibility.

Oh and I assume that's what engaged Wilkens' aircraft when they were attacking the track. How accurate is this era's triple-A anyway?