SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Steve]

I figured the AAA made up maybe a battalion of your divisional arty brigade, plus your divisions' "organic" arty would be primarily AA/AT instead of standard artillery due to the divisional arty.

Honestly, Ryan, you might've made things easier on yourself if your composition listing was basically "2 infantry, 1 artillery, specialized in jungle fighting". Or if you'd not gone for the arty-heavy army and just put "standard division, all units trained for jungle-fighting". (I'd note, though, that enough of your terrain isn't jungle that you should probably have specialist jungle units like your rangers and the standard units that are better at jungle-fighters than other countries' regulars but aren't specialist in skill.)

[Ryan Thunder]

I figured the AAA made up maybe a battalion of your divisional arty brigade, plus your divisions' "organic" arty would be primarily AA/AT instead of standard artillery due to the divisional arty.

Honestly, Ryan, you might've made things easier on yourself if your composition listing was basically "2 infantry, 1 artillery, specialized in jungle fighting".

I suppose. It hadn't occurred to me at the time that I would need to specify that units stationed in or tasked with the defense of large swathes of rain forest would be specifically trained to fight defensively in it.

Or if you'd not gone for the arty-heavy army and just put "standard division, all units trained for jungle-fighting". (I'd note, though, that enough of your terrain isn't jungle that you should probably have specialist jungle units like your rangers and the standard units that are better at jungle-fighters than other countries' regulars but aren't specialist in skill.)

Yeah, I have most of my mechanized units for the plains-ish regions and more lightly forested areas.

[CmdrWilkens]

Well, IMHO, if I get extra AAA, its only fair that I should pay for it as an extra unit, unless its included as part of the artillery brigade and counted against the total number of guns, since I already do that anyway.

If you've had a glance at my ORBAT recently, you'll notice that those brigades include two field air defense batteries containing a total of sixteen 80L60 AA guns as part of the 52 total guns or whatever its supposed to be. Now, bearing in mind that those can be used as anti-tank guns in a pinch if I understand things correctly, that shouldn't be a massive drain on total firepower but it gives them some flexibility.

Oh and I assume that's what engaged Wilkens' aircraft when they were attacking the track. How accurate is this era's triple-A anyway?

Poor at best but then again the planes aren't exactly high performance 300mph+ WWII era monoplanes either. Basically AAA and fighter/bomber operations in this era are progressing rapidly from WWI era technology at least for the AirTech4 powers but for those of us stuck down at 1,2 , or 3 WWI is still a better reference point. We are still at least 5 or so years away from a consistent monoplane designs and the kinds of performance folks associate with air warfare in pre WWII era.

[Ryan Thunder]

Ah, so perhaps I would've been better to go with some 20 mm autocannons, instead.

[Steve]

Harder to inflict hits, basically... but when you do hit it's gonna be for effect.

Anyway, rolling with Beo for the war in Manchuria. Yeah, y'all forgot about that, didn't you?

Heh heh, can see the headlines now. DISASTER IN THE FAR EAST!!

Edit: Well, okay, not so much of a disaster, but keeping 300,000 troops pocketed is not easy... especially when Timothy's dice hand is hot.

[Ryan Thunder]

Department of Future Warfare, Gran Colombia



"So, we think that if we put feathered wings on it and run fast enough it'll take off. From there its just a matter of figuring out how to put a 150-millimetre gun or two on it. What do you say to another few million dollars to work up a prototype?"

[CmdrWilkens]

Ah, so perhaps I would've been better to go with some 20 mm autocannons, instead.

Yes and no. Its more realistic to go with a converted 80mm AT weapon given the nature of your armed forces to from that standpoint no. Its also a bit of a question mark going forward. A 20 mm is one shot kill right now (except on twin engine machine sometimes) but probably not in another decade. The best and most common AA guns tended to be in the 37/40 mm range. The Bofors is a perfect example and saw huge use in WWII (it also wasn't developed until the 30s). The real problem is rate of fire on any autocannon, with the state of metallurgy in these years improving continually it might be worth it to build a 20mm NOW that will be solid if not spectacular against aircraft (and probably cheaper than you 80L60s) while giving your weapons designers experience to apply to a larger model in the 30s that will be solid for that time period.


So long story less long there is no single right answer to this question other than that German's WWII experience is proof enough at the resources expended in AAA are often far less efficient at the task of engaging enemy airplanes than resources expended on interceptor aircraft. That isn't to say AAA has no place but rather that in the balance of resources fighters are more efficient than AAA but you need both in any well structured force.


BTW Hehe to the photo.

[loomer]

I have determined that our history is not sufficiently divergent.

As such, prepare for interesting cultural developments in Afghanistan.

[Norade]

For an army tech 4 nation, is it okay to start with most artillery motorized, or would I be restricted to 1/3 motorized the rest horse drawn? Due to my 5 gun batteries would I be able to have 55 gun artillery divisions organized into 11 batteries? Also, how many organic guns should an infantry division carry?

[Steve]

I'll let the experts say what the average ID would have in arty, but your total of motorized artillery must come from your motorized infantry brigade total. I'd say you can sacrifice 1 motor infantry brigade for 3 motor arty brigades, since instead of trucking 5,000 men you're trucking 54 guns + ammo, and the actual manpower of the arty brigade is probably closer to 2-3,000, not 5,000.

[Norade]

In that case I think I'll just upgrade them later to save hassle. As it stands now my new organization goes like this.

Infantry/Cavalry Organization:
Division: 15,000 soldiers (3 brigades)
Brigade: 5,000 soldiers (8 fighting companies, 5 support companies, 2 artillery companies 50 man command team)
Company: 330 soldiers (10 troops, 10 man attached command team)
-Artillery Company: 1 battery of 75mm howitzers, 1 battery of 105mm howitzers
Troop: 32 soldiers (4 fire teams of 8)
Fire Team: 8 soldiers (5 regulars, 1 sergeant/specialist, 2 support gunners)

Artillery Organization:
Artillery Brigade: 11 batteries (55 guns)
Artillery Battery: 5 guns
Heavy Artillery Brigade: 11 batteries (55 guns)
Heavy Artillery Battery: 5 guns
Siege Artillery Brigade: 3 batteries (9 guns)
Siege Artillery Battery: 3 guns

-An Artillery Brigade has 7 batteries of 4.2" guns, and 4 batteries of 6" guns
-A Heavy Artillery Brigade has 4 batteries of 4.2" guns, and 7 batteries of 6" guns
-A Siege Artillery Brigade has 2 batteries of 10" guns, and one battery of 12" guns

I think it seems reasonable, for each division to have 20 organic guns.

[Siege]

Thanas, Baerne, instead of dividing Belgium along the lines of who conquered what you'd be far better off dividing it along existing cultural lines, i.e. the Flemish and Wallonian areas. In other words, like so:



Incidentally and assuming a degree of convergence with OTL in the 1920s this means the French are getting the better deal when it comes to Belgium, since they'll be getting the rich and affluent Wallonian mining areas. Of course the Germans are better set for the second half of the 20th century, but that won't be here for some time yet...

[Thanas]

No, I'll need some french speakers for a storyline I am working with. And he's already getting 30-40% of my coal and Iron reserves of Germany with the parts in Alsace-Lorraine.

[Siege]

Well it's up to you, my job in the Union is pretty much done, but don't blame me if in the future you'll end up with an ungovernable province because the Flemish and Wallonians cannot get along .

[Thanas]

Well it's up to you, my job in the Union is pretty much done, but don't blame me if in the future you'll end up with an ungovernable province because the Flemish and Wallonians cannot get along .

You mean....like today?

[Thanas]

Okay, those who have read the IC post already know about the major scrapping that is about to start, but here are the numbers:

Scrapped will be:
7 Pantserships (2 already having their armament destroyed in battle)
10 armored cruisers
58 Wolf-class destroyers.

Whoever wants some of these drop me a PM, I'll not be asking more than a bit above scrap value.

[Norseman]

Whoah! Where the heck did those German troops suddenly materialise from? Seriously there is no way in hell that this could be anything other than an occupation force, but to get there in time it would have to be dispatched before the Dutch surrender. In short it'd have to be dispatched while it was still very unclear whether or not the Dutch would surrender. Quite frankly this looks a tad like an asspull maneouver if you ask me.

Secondly, to be blunt, there's no way you could gain any kind of surprise. Let's just say that there are several groups already present in Mombasa and they would tend to notice an approaching German fleet. Their reaction should at least be considered.

In short I would like a moderator ruling on this...

[Ma Deuce]

Whoah! Where the heck did those German troops suddenly materialise from? Seriously there is no way in hell that this could be anything other than an occupation force, but to get there in time it would have to be dispatched before the Dutch surrender. In short it'd have to be dispatched while it was still very unclear whether or not the Dutch would surrender. Quite frankly this looks a tad like an asspull maneouver if you ask me.

Yeah that does seem a bit...fishy, especially considering that game time is frozen ATM.

[Steve]

Whoah! Where the heck did those German troops suddenly materialise from? Seriously there is no way in hell that this could be anything other than an occupation force, but to get there in time it would have to be dispatched before the Dutch surrender. In short it'd have to be dispatched while it was still very unclear whether or not the Dutch would surrender. Quite frankly this looks a tad like an asspull maneouver if you ask me.

Secondly, to be blunt, there's no way you could gain any kind of surprise. Let's just say that there are several groups already present in Mombasa and they would tend to notice an approaching German fleet. Their reaction should at least be considered.

In short I would like a moderator ruling on this...

Get there in time for what? I think Thanas was presuming the forces landed at Berbera were dispatched or, perhaps, some from Dar-es-Salaam. Either way I don't think he's assuming this was before the surrender or even at the same time, but a few days later. It's probably basically a German effort to present a choice to the Congo; relent or face war with a victorious Germany.

Thanas, are the landings intended for late July, early August, or concurrent with the surrender? And where were the troops drawn from?

Also, I'm presuming you have the garrison turning on their authorities and enforcing the surrender terms?

[Norseman]

Problem is that it takes time to muster ships, time to move troops to harbour, time to load troops aboard ships and it takes more time to sail to the harbour you want to go to. Meanwhile the Congolese are moving *unopposed* towards the railway head. So a timeschedule is of the essence, to know who could get there first.

However if there is some sort of plot to surrender to Germany there is a good chance that the Congolese and/or Brazilian presence there might figure something out. TO be blunt there's a couple of Brazilian airships there as well as some other assets (Steve knows about those). Let's put it this way... if you *had* landed troops in Mombasa these assets are not the sort of things you'd be able to ignore.

So we need to figure out who gets where and how fast...

BTW: I think the main problem for both the Congo and the Dominion is that an independent Kenya is acceptable, one that is a German colony isn't.

[Thanas]

Get there in time for what? I think Thanas was presuming the forces landed at Berbera were dispatched or, perhaps, some from Dar-es-Salaam. Either way I don't think he's assuming this was before the surrender or even at the same time, but a few days later. It's probably basically a German effort to present a choice to the Congo; relent or face war with a victorious Germany.

Thanas, are the landings intended for late July, early August, or concurrent with the surrender? And where were the troops drawn from?

The troops are the rest of the forces not assigned to the invasion of Berbera. The invasion of Berbera took place on the first day of war. The troops have been in region since at least two months before the conflict, I announced their deployment here.

Five Barbarossa class liners and 14 support ships, escorted by the Battleships Markgraf, Baden, Nassau, Westfalen, Helgoland as well as 2 Novara class cruisers, two Hamburg class Cruisers and 12 destroyers (2 Tatra, 6 Z22, 4 V-112) have been ordered to sea. These ships carry three marine, three pioneer, 1 Sturmtruppen and one heavy and normal artillery brigade each. It is thought they will join up with the two colonial brigades stationed at Dar-es-Salaam to reinforce the troops there in preparation for convoy escort duties in the indian ocean, while the pioneer brigades will start to reinforce the naval base to make it capable of handling the extra loads. The liners SS Kronprinz Wilhelm, Kaiser Wilhelm II and SS Hansa were requested for this duty as well. The heavy cruisers SMS Blücher and SMS Dohna, currently stationed as Dar-es-Salaam, will join up with this fleet as well.

Two of the marine brigades and two pioneer brigades then took part in the invasion of Berbera in the first day of invasion here. The invasion duties of that fleet was finished on that day and they turned back for Dar es salaam.

The landings happen in late August, giving them plenty of time to take the ships on board.

Problem is that it takes time to muster ships, time to move troops to harbour, time to load troops aboard ships and it takes more time to sail to the harbour you want to go to. Meanwhile the Congolese are moving *unopposed* towards the railway head. So a timeschedule is of the essence, to know who could get there first.

The Dutch garrison surrendered one day after the full dutch surrender to the German submarine. Landing troops to reinforce the presence there happens in late August.

However if there is some sort of plot to surrender to Germany there is a good chance that the Congolese and/or Brazilian presence there might figure something out. TO be blunt there's a couple of Brazilian airships there as well as some other assets (Steve knows about those). Let's put it this way... if you *had* landed troops in Mombasa these assets are not the sort of things you'd be able to ignore.

Lovely. Too nice that you have not wrote a single post about it in IC, so I do not consider anything of the sort binding. Unlike you or the congo, I at least write when I relocate major assets.

That said, if you want to make it a race, I can easily get there first. I have my u-boat there and 24 Gotha bomber, all who can easily reach Mombassa as it is in their radius.

BTW: I think the main problem for both the Congo and the Dominion is that an independent Kenya is acceptable, one that is a German colony isn't.

Lonestar and I have come to an agreement. And if you really want to press me, I'll turn the whole colony over to him. You can then have fun with a Dominion presence next door.

Also, I'm presuming you have the garrison turning on their authorities and enforcing the surrender terms?

I am having them follow the lawful orders of their commander in chief, General Seyffardt.

[Norseman]

The reason I didn't post was that you don't always want every player to know what you're doing However I've always informed the moderators about it.

[Thanas]

The reason I didn't post was that you don't always want every player to know what you're doing However I've always informed the moderators about it.

Too bad that they did not inform me then. I am not going to get shafted by invisible forces my recon patrols of the coasts would have picked up.

[Norseman]

The reason I didn't post was that you don't always want every player to know what you're doing However I've always informed the moderators about it.

Too bad that they did not inform me then. I am not going to get shafted by invisible forces my recon patrols of the coasts would have picked up.

How the could I have informed you when I didn't have a clue you were coming?! If you had *asked* and I had *known* I would have told you!

[Thanas]

The reason I didn't post was that you don't always want every player to know what you're doing However I've always informed the moderators about it.

Too bad that they did not inform me then. I am not going to get shafted by invisible forces my recon patrols of the coasts would have picked up.

How the hell could I have informed you when I didn't have a fucking clue you were coming?!

I am talking about the recon forces I have had there ever since the start of the war. I got about 50 aircrafts in Dar-es-Salaam patrolling the area, as well as several U-boots of the coast. I had written this since the start of the war.

To add more to the fun - how could the Congolese soldiers have gotten to Mombassa faster than my ships?