2014 STGOD OOC Commentary Thread 1

[Beowulf]

Jiangnan's proposal had vertical guns because they're currently in service (as a 155mm) with the TGHJ on a destroyer class, and they had no real clue how to make an armored 12" gun otherwise. Vertical isn't optimal for range (it'd actually be something like 85 degrees from horizontal), but it's a bit simpler to just make it completely vertical. The VGAS sacrifices the ability to take a variety of unguided munitions, and requires guided munitions, to make the gun simpler. You don't need the ability to train and elevate. You just need the recoil buffer. The simplification continues in that you always have a consistent loading location, making the loading equipment simpler. Speaking of recoil, it's easier to absorb, as it's in a consistent direction (down) You also gain a better situation with blast effects. Since the gun can only ever point in one direction, you can more easily compensate for it. Additionally, you have a better sensor picture, since you don't have the gun turret blocking a given azimuth. On the reverse, you have a stealthier system, because it doesn't stick out, so radar can't see it.

[Thanas]

Hmmm. That all sounds like a convincing argument in favor for it, but wouldn't you need a smaller secondary gun then to do the proverbial shot across the bow as I'd assume one wouldn't want to waste more expensive guided ammo for that?

[Simon_Jester]

Well, for that you can use very light artillery- secondary armament, in other words. I imagine that if a WWI dreadnought ever had to fire a shot across someone's bow, they wouldn't waste a main gun round on it either.

[Beowulf]

Well, there's a reason why Dalian's proposal for Hawai'i included 40mm chain guns. Another disadvantage is that it takes a while for the shot to fall. Also, TGHJ only has GPS/INS guided rounds, so they'd need to be updated for target location as they fall, or spend more money on better guidance.

[Thanas]

Still, a system Rheinland might be interested in purchasing from Tiangtao. How much more would it cost in comparison the Advanced Gun system that is currently used and what would be the space savings?

[TimothyC]

Still, a system Rheinland might be interested in purchasing from Tiangtao. How much more would it cost in comparison the Advanced Gun system that is currently used and what would be the space savings?

Tianguo.

[Beowulf]

Still, a system Rheinland might be interested in purchasing from Tiangtao. How much more would it cost in comparison the Advanced Gun system that is currently used and what would be the space savings?

There'd probably be little space savings, as much of the extra equipment associated with being a train and elevate mount are in the turret, which doesn't exist for a VGAS system. Probably a decent weight savings, however (again, from the lack of a turret). The design of a VGAS system is such that two will fit into the volume of a 64 cell Mk41 VLS.

[Steve]

Hey Beo, the measuring units you use, are they similar to metric or US counterparts? Otherwise I'm not sure what it is you want for that offered design.

I also can't find any case of a modern seaplane tender for comparison since they're all old ships.

[Steve]

So.... crap. Looking at usual space launch paths, the only place I can launch near the coast with the shuttle launching east and over the ocean is Baja.... which means it would, unless going very southerly as well, launch right toward Klavostan.

Crap.

[madd0ct0r]

I'm guessing the Indo sub continent will get some attention then?

[Siege]

Minor note, the insurer would be AxumFinans, not Acheron Amalgamated.

[Simon_Jester]

Maddoctor, that last picture of yours is breaking formatting hard...

[I've gotten to where I routinely have to resize everything before linking it]

[Siege]

Ancillary note, since I see an edited post... AxumFinans is not an Acheron subsidiary. It is the sixth largest corporation in San Dorado all by itself.

[madd0ct0r]

oooooh. ok. will edit again (and cut the big pic)

[Steve]

Since we still have several countries unnamed, I figure country 13 and country 30 should be the Republic of the Pampas and the Cape Republic respectively. The Pampas is formerly Granadian and are majority Spanish speakers who absorbed part of the former Britonian South American colonies to north and south after throwing into the Great War late in. They came into Cascadian orbit during the pre-Great War years and remained there after the war, thus becoming one of the main land fronts in the South American War between Cascadia and allies versus Orion and allies, after continental tensions exploded into conflict in 1968. Orion invaded over the Marden-Pampas border (as well as invading country 30) as part of an effort to expel Cascadian forces and to turn the two countries into protectorates like Marden and Fortuna. Given both countries were home to the surviving people expelled from Marden, Underwood, and Fortuna by Orion, they fight back hard and, with Cascadian forces aiding them, hold the invasion back and eventually counter-attack enough to push the Orion back into Marden, although not without cost. Before Orion can reinforce and resume the offensive, country 12 falls to Communist revolution aided by Klavostan/Komradistan, as Komradistan is now making its return to the global stage. The two sides of the conflict decide their mutual anti-Communism is more important than their animosity over Orion's aspirations to continental hegemony, so they sign a peace treaty (perhaps negotiated in San Dorado with prodding from the major corps there) and the war ends with an status quo antebellum border, allowing a focusing of efforts to help anti-Communism forces in country 14, 28, and 12 to resist the growing Klavostani influence.

Any objections to this from E_F, Klavo, or Siege?

[Eternal_Freedom]

That sounds fine to me, it would be good to have a decent war in my backstory other than the Civil War and the Great War, especially one we didn't win. It lets me write my commanders a bit more restrained and sensible, since they were there, unlike my line officers, who as we have already seen are sometimes reckless.

Then again, my sub drivers are probably still toasting the success of Conqueror sinking the Superb in that war.

[Steve]

I figure it's a stalemate, for the most part; Orion's forces didn't do badly, but they got overstretched in their 1969 offensive and took heavy losses and had to fall back.

What is the terrain like in Marden, Underwood, and Fortuna? It's possible Orion's army was more used to fighting in hilly terrain and such, but on the plains of the Pampas mechanized maneuver warfare like Cascadia practiced - learned in the Great War - meant that when they took too much territory they were vulnerable to a large-scale counter-attack. (Note, this is only if you figure your protectorates are more rugged territory, encouraging tactical warfare built around dealing with passes and non-flat terrain maneuver.)

Anyway, I figure it was a good exchange; Orion got the big splashy victory early on by sinking Superb right off the Cascadian coast, but their ground campaign was pushed back with losses on both sides, and before the war could resume a mutual cause gave Cascadia and Orion reason to back down.

I figure one of the terms is that Cascadia withdrew all forces from Pampas and the Cape Republic while Orion agreed to respect their independence and limit the troops they maintained on the border of those countries.

In the modern day, this can actually lead to some advantages; Orion has made inroads into Pampas and pulled that country into a more neutral stance with plenty of pro-Orion sentiment and economic links. It's still not a protectorate like Marden and Fortuna, and there is still plenty of Cascadian influence, but Pampas is effectively neutral should any further conflict break out.

The Cape Republic would be another story, as it's the home to the majority of the displaced Britonian colonists and pro-Britonian natives expelled from the southern countries by Orion. So getting them to tilt toward Orion is.... not likely to happen any time soon.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Indeed. Underwood is heavily forested and quite hilly, I would expect Fortuna and Marden to be the same. The rest of that stuff looks fine to me, go ahead and consider it "official." And the Cape Republic sounds like an interesting NPC to deal with.

[Steve]

I imagine they're a fairly militarized country that's only started to loosen up, although that depends on how Orion has behaved as of late. If Orion's made it clear they'll respect the Treaty of <insert San Dorado suburb here>, the Cape Republic will probably be slackening off. If not... they'll probably be fielding a large air force and decent army for their nation size, perhaps including national service. Economically it's made them reliant on Cascadian support.

Actually, I imagine Siege would argue that one or more megacorps will have inroads in the Cape as well, which would be as surprising as rain coming from storm clouds.

[Steve]

That sounds fine to me, it would be good to have a decent war in my backstory other than the Civil War and the Great War, especially one we didn't win. It lets me write my commanders a bit more restrained and sensible, since they were there, unlike my line officers, who as we have already seen are sometimes reckless.

And to address this, yeah. The same here; neither side won, so Cascadia wasn't humiliated but had to self-examine its defense strategies, taking Orion's interests more seriously and re-aligning its diplomatic and defense priorities.

The rise of Komradistan would have a further effect on Cascadia, slowing the modernization of the Navy and leading to Cascadia's defense spending shooting to US Cold War levels (10% in the 1980s) to field the massive army and air force deemed necessary to dissuade Komradistan from attacking the GPR or Cascadia proper. Orion took advantage of this, I imagine, to expand influence in country 28 and Pampas.

I am considering a conflict in the 1980s when Komradistan, using its strong influence in country 12, armed Malip nationalists in an attempt to create a Communist Patagonian state.

If Klavo and Beo agree, I was going to recommend that country 12 once held an Atlantic coastline, the northern half of country 29. Call it the Democratic Republic of Chilitina. This allowed Klavostan to more easily ship things into Chilitina. After the 1990s detentè in Klavostan and domestic needs resulted in reduction of support for the Socialist government in Chilitina, in turn allowing Tianguo to detach the Atlantic strip's cities from Chilitina and allow them to join country 29 (the Federal Republic of Al-Atacama? Muslim majority, mostly trade cities all along the strip).

And that's it for now.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As much as we dislike the Britonians, we have honoured the treaty right up to the present day.

[Steve]

Then over time the Cape Republic have been reducing their military forces. Although they will be keeping a decent sized force. Probably at least four divisions worth of modern troops plus a large reserve army.

Air Force is probably a mix of 4th and 4.5 gen fighters. They may have purchased SF-14Es from Cascadia for their main strike fighter. But it's a defensive air force, they can't afford strat bombers.

Anyway, good to see we're filling this out. We should probably do a piece to showcase the nature of Cascadian-Orion relations, since I imagine things can get frosty, particularly whenever Orion tries to assert the desired hegemony over the continent.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Indeed. What were you thinking of?

[Siege]

Any objections to this from E_F, Klavo, or Siege?

None here.

I imagine Siege would argue that one or more megacorps will have inroads in the Cape as well, which would be as surprising as rain coming from storm clouds.

The first thing you should know about us is... We have inroads everywhere.

This treaty you talk about would have been negotiated somewhere on one of the Downtown islands, Manor Rock would make the most sense, or else Yronwood or Lesser Kadesh.

[KlavoHunter]

I am considering a conflict in the 1980s when Komradistan, using its strong influence in country 12, armed Malip nationalists in an attempt to create a Communist Patagonian state.

If Klavo and Beo agree, I was going to recommend that country 12 once held an Atlantic coastline, the northern half of country 29. Call it the Democratic Republic of Chilitina. This allowed Klavostan to more easily ship things into Chilitina. After the 1990s detentè in Klavostan and domestic needs resulted in reduction of support for the Socialist government in Chilitina, in turn allowing Tianguo to detach the Atlantic strip's cities from Chilitina and allow them to join country 29 (the Federal Republic of Al-Atacama? Muslim majority, mostly trade cities all along the strip).

And that's it for now.

Having Tianguo join in the fun and successfully detach that handy part of 29 from 12 would be a relatively threatening move. Good thing we have all these Naval Bombers

12 is acceptable (Though less than ideal) as my lil commie buddy on that continent, since I need at least one.