SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread II

[Darkevilme]

Is the Pfhor empire still active? Wars of aggression could be fun!

[Force Lord]

EDIT: Which state or organization has the most powerful ESPers? Just a quick question.

The Imperial Inquisition, with the God Emperor at its head.

Just that I haven't gotten around to write anything.

I was thinking that my state should have some pretty powerful ESPers as well, since the Centrality needs some kind of advantage over it's nearest rivals. Several of them can give the Inquisition fits, though none match your Emperor. However, since we both don't like the Nova Atlantean Commonwealth, the Imperium might not give it much thought. They might think: "At least we can count on the Centralists to give the NAC issues. And if it comes to war, we'll ask them to let us come and fight them, and kill the remaining Tau scum as well!"

So I think the Imperium should have the most powerful human ESPers, with the Centrality in second place (close? distant?).

EDIT: Should we have tiers that distinguish powerful ESPers from weaker ones?

[Simon_Jester]

Oh you did not! STONEHENGE!

Better.

Looted Stonehenge! Now with big snarly faces painted on the mass driver shells to make them killier!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I was thinking that my state should have some pretty powerful ESPers as well, since the Centrality needs some kind of advantage over it's nearest rivals. Several of them can give the Inquisition fits, though none match your Emperor. However, since we both don't like the Nova Atlantean Commonwealth, the Imperium might not give it much thought. They might think: "At least we can count on the Centralists to give the NAC issues. And if it comes to war, we'll ask them to let us come and fight them, and kill the remaining Tau scum as well!"

So the Imperium has the most powerful human ESPers, with the Centrality a close second.

EDIT: Should we have tiers that distinguish powerful ESPers from weaker ones?

I think Shinn's Haruhi is an equal or a close match to the God Emperor last I checked.

[Force Lord]

I was thinking that my state should have some pretty powerful ESPers as well, since the Centrality needs some kind of advantage over it's nearest rivals. Several of them can give the Inquisition fits, though none match your Emperor. However, since we both don't like the Nova Atlantean Commonwealth, the Imperium might not give it much thought. They might think: "At least we can count on the Centralists to give the NAC issues. And if it comes to war, we'll ask them to let us come and fight them, and kill the remaining Tau scum as well!"

So the Imperium has the most powerful human ESPers, with the Centrality a close second.

EDIT: Should we have tiers that distinguish powerful ESPers from weaker ones?

I think Shinn's Haruhi is an equal or a close match to the God Emperor last I checked.

Ah, so third place for me, then?

[Simon_Jester]

1) I think formal tiers would be a bad idea. For one, a lot of the galaxy's greatest espers are mostly heads of state and such, and therefore unlikely to come into direct conflict. It doesn't matter whether Haruhi or Emperor Heraclius is more powerful; they're hardly going to get into a brain-wrestling match any time soon.

For another, it encourages "my psychic can beat up your psychic" reasoning, which gets in the way of the plot, where which psychic wins should probably be determined more by drama than anything else.

2)...Did I just do something so wacky not even Shroomy saw it coming? I don't know whether to be proud or horrified.

EDIT:
3) Siege, a question. The basic theory and classification system developed by the Foundation for Omega Point Research- has at least that level of their take on psychic abilities been published? Obviously a lot of their real work is classified, but the basics?

[Shroom Man 777]

I was planning on using Stonehenge for light Bragulan anti-air artillery.

[Master_Baerne]

Horrified.

Definately horrified.

[Force Lord]

Well, the Centralists have tried to engineer the "Perfect ESPer" for a looooong time (since Dovan's rule), but every subject turned up dead or horribly mutated. But they continue triyng because they want to feel they have the biggest dick in something.

EDIT: Kinda like the Ion Cannon project, come to think of it. Maybe I'll do a post about it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I was planning on using Stonehenge for light Bragulan anti-air artillery.

Bah.

My Space Marines trott around machine rail guns, which have the option of firing high explosive (read: nukes).

[Shroom Man 777]

Stonehenge is composed of railguns the size of buildings, meant to blow up giant Armageddon/Deep Impact-esque asteroids. The railgun doesn't even have to hit anywhere close to an aircraft, the shockwaves are so intense that if you're not hugging the ground the shockwaves of a far-miss will blow up your airplane.

[Simon_Jester]

That card is very poorly designed, even given the intent it reflects; see the commentary on the webpage where Shroom found that image for more information.

I was planning on using Stonehenge for light Bragulan anti-air artillery.

Who's to say you can't? Where do you think Nguyen's world bought their planetary defense batteries from?

[DANGER: Random details follow!]

This planet only has a few such installations, so they don't have full AAA coverage over the planetary atmosphere, but it does give them at least basic ability to engage orbiting targets so that they can credibly threaten to shoot down random space pirate ships and suchlike. Also note that the Stonehenge guns are unprotected targets except for any point defense mounted nearby; one megaton-range nuke going off on the gun platform will put the battery out of action. This makes them unsuited for really serious space defense against powerful opposition, unless the position is bolstered with a theater shield over the battery or some such.

Thus, they are light fixed antiship artillery; an energetic enough version of the design might be able to damage capital ships, but the basic installation is very fragile on the scale of starship combat, unless backed up by a lot more defenses than the basic installation has.

Not that this matters if you're not in a position to take out the guns...

Command Bridge, CNS Frod
Clankor Sector, The Centrality
Early 3400

"This better be good."
"While we have not yet ironed out all the kinks in the design, I assure you that this version won't be a complete write-off like the last one."
"Oh, sure", replied Captain Stack sarcastically. "As in complete destruction, including the deaths of it's trained crew?"
The man in front of him winced. "We did not forsee a explosion from the late Type-64 Super-Heavy Ion Cannon. We thought it would only affect the cannon itself, not the ship that housed it."
"Yet it did explode and destroyed that ship! I don't know how can you assure me that the same won't happen with my ship!", shouted Stack.
The engineer sighed. "Sir, the Type-74 has rectified the flaws in the previous model. The magnets are now properly placed and won't explode from the slightest disturbance. This may be it."
Stack shook his head. "Nevertheless, I'll oversee the testing of this weapon from another vantage point." He then announced to an ensign, "Alert the hangar crew to prepare my shuttle."
The engineer looked at him confused. "You won't stay?"
Stack nodded curtly at him. "Ship officers don't come out cheap, you know."
He then marched out.

[Umerian]This should be funny to watch...[/Umerian]

[Shroom Man 777]

Glad to see you back, Force Lord. Good to see you man your stations and weather the storm! Attaboy!

[Force Lord]

Glad to see you back, Force Lord. Good to see you man your stations and weather the storm! Attaboy!

Keep on the SHROOMMIN', Shroom!

[Shroom Man 777]

Wait, what happened to the Centrality forces in Pendleton? I wanted to see more of that.

It would've developed into an interesting scenario. But now, everything's quiet, what's happening on Pendleton?

[Force Lord]

Wait, what happened to the Centrality forces in Pendleton? I wanted to see more of that.

It would've developed into an interesting scenario. But now, everything's quiet, what's happening on Pendleton?

Ah yes, the Datton and the 5th Fleet. I'm still waiting for Katr_Kana's response to Task Force 7.

And as for the Datton itself, I'm still planning it out.

[Force Lord]

Well, Steve, time to end the Datton's saga. I await.

[Shroom Man 777]

Oh! Oh! Hostage crisis! Time to send the Philippine police! Beware, Centrality-ists! What DO we call you anyway, Centralists?

Are you guys even humans?

CNS FROD!

[Force Lord]

Oh! Oh! Hostage crisis! Time to send the Philippine police! Beware, Centrality-ists! What DO we call you anyway, Centralists?

Are you guys even humans?

CNS FROD!

Yes, we're the Centralists.

And yep, we're human.

EDIT: Those "hostages" are actually Centrality citizens. But only the spy knows that they are disloyal. Forg still thinks that they are loyal.

[DarthShady]

On the subject of ESPers: Don't be surprised that the Swarm has quite a few powerful ESP individuals - The Aspects. Although they will rarely, if ever, show up in battle. Some or at least one should be a close match for the God Emperor.

Also: I am opposed to the idea of classifying ESPers, I find it unnecessary and potentially problematic.

[Siege]

EDIT:
3) Siege, a question. The basic theory and classification system developed by the Foundation for Omega Point Research- has at least that level of their take on psychic abilities been published? Obviously a lot of their real work is classified, but the basics?

It's probably been published in some journals... The problem with the Foundation is, though, that about half of all 'research' they publish is completely batshit insane pseudo-science built on the half-baked hypotheses dreamt up by the Foundation's founders (who were probably using copious amounts of LSD at the time). Meanwhile the other half (mostly the stuff to do with training, neural enhancement and some underlying principles of psionic activity), is scarily prescient and accurate. The difficulty with their work, then, is figuring out which parts are proper science and which are insanity best ignored. The classification system is probably fairly well known at least in academic circles, but it's most empathically not intended as a universal system. The Sovereignty uses it, but that's mostly so I can occasionally toss around the term "Paramount Grand Master", which I happen to like a lot. If, on the other hand, anyone wants to adopt it, that's of course perfectly fine by me.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Lesbo Zone powers, on the other hand, may subscribe to the Silver Moon's own esper classification system as they seem to be quite influential and regarded as the foremost esper organization in that area.

Yes, I just said this so I could have an excuse to use 'Lesbo Zone'.

[Simon_Jester]

It's probably been published in some journals... The problem with the Foundation is, though, that about half of all 'research' they publish is completely batshit insane pseudo-science built on the half-baked hypotheses dreamt up by the Foundation's founders (who were probably using copious amounts of LSD at the time). Meanwhile the other half (mostly the stuff to do with training, neural enhancement and some underlying principles of psionic activity), is scarily prescient and accurate. The difficulty with their work, then, is figuring out which parts are proper science and which are insanity best ignored. The classification system is probably fairly well known at least in academic circles, but it's most empathically not intended as a universal system. The Sovereignty uses it, but that's mostly so I can occasionally toss around the term "Paramount Grand Master", which I happen to like a lot. If, on the other hand, anyone wants to adopt it, that's of course perfectly fine by me.

Yaay Pleistocene Saga! [where he got his system from]

I ask because while Umeria is not an esper-heavy nation the way the Sovereignty seems to be, there is a small but highly active community of scientific esper researchers. Esper research is difficult enough that my people will check out whatever leads they can get in the literature, though a good double-blind study will tend to reveal gaping holes in some portions of the Foundation's work.

There's also at least one more esoteric spinoff organization from the psi-research community that I'll be detailing later. They're arguably our closest counterpart to the Omega Foundation, though if the two ever encountered each other they'd probably denounce each other as batshit insane and stupid. At least one of them would be right, possibly both.

---

Re: Shroom.

I'm not sure whether Umeria counts as being part of the Lesbo Zone from your point of view, but in any case, the Silver Moon's system probably wouldn't be very useful to us. From a Umerian's point of view there are a lot of huge problems with it:

- Too much of it revolves around ability to pass prearranged rituals, rather than on concrete measures of ability such as "so, you're a telekinetic, just how much can you hold against a one-gee standard gravitational field?" There are too many ranks and not enough numbers; among other things that's a problem if you're trying to do things like find a mathematical model for the relationship between training time, innate "gift," and the esper's level of power. Which would be a huge concern for Umerians, because it lets MiniWell give much more effective counseling to newly discovered psychics on how (and if) they should cultivate their abilities.

- It isn't very good at gauging an esper's ability in multidimensional terms- it doesn't disentangle how good you are at creating the illusion of key lime pie from how good you are at juggling geese with your mind or whatever. That may be useful for an order of warrior-mystics, where differently-specialized espers of the same rank will complement each other's skills. But it's lousy if you're trying to do a research paper that involves, say, finding the correlation between pie-illusion and goose-juggling skills.

-The Order's system exists mostly for its own benefit; they didn't convene an international panel to set the standards or anything, the way that the SI units were established.

Put simply, we want a system that can be used by scientists, not mystics. The Silver Moon system isn't it. The Omega Foundation's system is probably more helpful, though we may well not be using it outright.

[Siege]

Yaay Pleistocene Saga! [where he got his system from]

You must be the first person I run across in, like, forever who's actually familiar with the works of Julian May. Yeah, the Pleistocene Saga is one of my favourite sci-fi series, and the metafaculties therein are probably the most interesting take on psychic abilities I've come across thusfar.

I ask because while Umeria is not an esper-heavy nation the way the Sovereignty seems to be, there is a small but highly active community of scientific esper researchers. Esper research is difficult enough that my people will check out whatever leads they can get in the literature, though a good double-blind study will tend to reveal gaping holes in some portions of the Foundation's work.

Oh, you bet it will. Of course some of the wildest hypotheses bandied about by the Foundation cannot even be tested properly -- they involve things like a sapient universe, the existence of a metaphysical 'omega point' and the noosphere, all of which are fringe science principles at the very best of times.

The Sovereignty also isn't particularly psion-heavy -- there are virtually no 'traditional' espers, practically all psions in the USS are engineered human-Apexai hybrids, and only the third generation of those can remotely be called 'numerous'. The Apexai themselves are astute telepaths, but there aren't very many Apexai either (and they generally want as little to do with the Sovereignty as possible). CEID meanwhile has a reputation for utilizing large numbers of psions, but as a Firefly fan you of course know what is reputation...

Many of the agency's high-profile actions that people ascribe to psion operatives are actually the product of good old-fashioned intelligence work. If you arrest a guy out of the blue and confront him with all kinds of wrongdoings, he might assume you're a telepath who's grabbed it all straight out of his head... Whilst in reality you just had him under observation for months. Of course if he thinks you're a telepath that might be helpful duriong interrogation, and CEID does like its not so pleasant reputation an awful lot, so they're not about to make anyone any wiser. In the end though, CEID probably doesn't count nearly as many psions amongst its ranks as many people think.

[RogueIce]

1) I think formal tiers would be a bad idea. For one, a lot of the galaxy's greatest espers are mostly heads of state and such, and therefore unlikely to come into direct conflict. It doesn't matter whether Haruhi or Emperor Heraclius is more powerful; they're hardly going to get into a brain-wrestling match any time soon.

For another, it encourages "my psychic can beat up your psychic" reasoning, which gets in the way of the plot, where which psychic wins should probably be determined more by drama than anything else.

I would agree. If somebody's "powerful ESPer" comes up against somebody else's "powerful ESPer" and they can't resolve the potential conflict (maybe they got infected with the 'VS Thread Virus' and are compelled to fight to the death for reasons unknown?) we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

Until then, best to leave it open.

2)...Did I just do something so wacky not even Shroomy saw it coming? I don't know whether to be proud or horrified.

Horrified.

Definately horrified.

I would agree with this assessment.

Oh! Oh! Hostage crisis! Time to send the Philippine police!

Are they equipped with tacticool M3s?