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Post by phongn »

Stas Bush wrote:Will someone finally provide calculations on the range of EMP attack at various orbits (200 to 1500 km), or just go with "we will fry everything, mwahahaha"? :roll:
It's not EMP. His weapons will throw out a sleet of hard radiation which will destroy electronics within a certain radius + inject enormous amounts of high energy particle radiation will will last quite awhile - and probably collect in the Van Allen belts, closing off intersecting orbits for some time. Not sure of the range for the prompt radiation, though, probably have to look that up.
Mr Bean wrote: Yes they make big impressive holes, cause big ship destroying waves but two hours later it's over. Meanwhile if even one nuclear weapon goes off your talking about weeks if not months of a deadly zone. More to the point if the proper collars are fitted onto the weapons(Was it Boranium?) the land can be poisoned for ten generations.
I don't think anyone is going to go for salted warheads, it makes no sense from any perspective. Airbursts' radioactive zone cool down pretty soon, though groundbursts against hardened targets are the gift that keep on giving.
And a man was ready to end it all in nuclear fire, a man who tried to order a nuclear attack on the world from a "peace" summit, why do you jump on me for putting a madman down? You mean to tell me you "sat" in that room as Sheppard called for a nuclear attack and said, oh no.. Poor sheppard, that bad man Bean shot him! Muuurderr he killed Darth Stalin-Hitler-Mao-Dark Heart.
Except he clearly wasn't launching a massive world-ending strike.
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Post by Mr Bean »

phongn wrote:[
And a man was ready to end it all in nuclear fire, a man who tried to order a nuclear attack on the world from a "peace" summit, why do you jump on me for putting a madman down? You mean to tell me you "sat" in that room as Sheppard called for a nuclear attack and said, oh no.. Poor sheppard, that bad man Bean shot him! Muuurderr he killed Darth Stalin-Hitler-Mao-Dark Heart.
Except he clearly wasn't launching a massive world-ending strike.
Really? You know that? He said, oh by the way, I'm totally not going to nuke everyone, my nukes are only going to fly up into the atmosphere destroy billions of dollars worth of investment and... oh yes if correct make space exploration impossible for years and leave hundreds of multi-ton KKV's falling towards the earth over the next years.

Oh yes, that was very much a peaceful action. Also he was tried to order a nuclear attack FROM A PEACE CONFERENCE

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Post by phongn »

Mr Bean wrote:Really? You know that? He said, oh by the way, I'm totally not going to nuke everyone, my nukes are only going to fly up into the atmosphere destroy billions of dollars worth of investment and... oh yes if correct make space exploration impossible for years and leave hundreds of multi-ton KKV's falling towards the earth over the next years.
He said he was going to launch heavy space vehicles. And if they're coming down uncontrolled, they're burning on on the way in (mostly), and frankly, I can track then and plink them if I need to.
Oh yes, that was very much a peaceful action. Also he was tried to order a nuclear attack FROM A PEACE CONFERENCE
Right after you threaten assured destruction after him, you mean? Oh, that's a real peaceful action there.

And then after he was clearly shown to be impotent after your engineered coup, you blew his brains out anyways! That surely wasn't necessary. How did you possibly think that you'd be shown as world savior?
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Post by Mr Bean »

phongn wrote:
Oh yes, that was very much a peaceful action. Also he was tried to order a nuclear attack FROM A PEACE CONFERENCE
Right after you threaten assured destruction after him, you mean? Oh, that's a real peaceful action there.
Yes... Because I told him I would not allow him to kick off a global thermo-nuclear war and told him I'd destroy his nuclear weapons.

Yes... warmonger me, how dare I attempt to stop a man trying to destroy the world.

Think Phongn

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Post by phongn »

Mr Bean wrote:
Right after you threaten assured destruction after him, you mean? Oh, that's a real peaceful action there.
Yes... Because I told him I would not allow him to kick off a global thermo-nuclear war and told him I'd destroy his nuclear weapons.
Really, even though he apparently (in-universe) came to the table in good faith and was willing to negotiate with MESS and FUN over the issue?
Yes... warmonger me, how dare I attempt to stop a man trying to destroy the world.
Sounds like he was negotiating before you issued an ultimatum to him, which if executed would've completed stripped him of the ability to defend himself.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

phong wrote:It's not EMP. His weapons will throw out a sleet of hard radiation which will destroy electronics within a certain radius + inject enormous amounts of high energy particle radiation will will last quite awhile - and probably collect in the Van Allen belts, closing off intersecting orbits for some time. Not sure of the range for the prompt radiation, though, probably have to look that up.
Here's the deal, I already read the papers. The altitude of Bean's sats means they are hardened against 30-40 KRADs if they are to function for a meaningful time (the launchers themselves are pretty fucking simple and should have little in the way of elements to be damaged by radiation) - as are his C&C satellites (which could be spread over various orbits, including GEO (in which case, good luck on trying to do ANYTHING to the targeting sats :lol: ).

What does that entail? Globalstar - a civilian, unhardened satellite constellation (at approximately the level most Bean's sats are), has "10-12%" affected in case of a high-altitude nuclear explosion (by viture of LOS x-rays).

DTRA baseline models (for the US military) predict that from a 20KT burst at 290km, Globalstar will fail after accumulating 60K rads (in case Bean hardened it to GEO Rad levels, it won't fail at all, merely have it's lifetime halved or so).

For an unprotected (30 Krad) satellite this would mean failure in 60 days.

60 days are two months - after that, replacement satellites will already have a lifetime of 2-3 months, and after 6 months the lifetime will restore to normal.

Saddamistan has not declared any heavy space boosters to lift anything more serious than small nuclear bombs into orbit.

I would also presume Bean would not tolerate Saddamistan launching multimegaton devices into orbit which would destroy the entire LEO constellations instantly - and with silent consent of the world, simply destroy Saddamistan's space launch complexes in a space strike, or whatnot.

GEO satellites will not be affected much AT ALL, and if Bean has "delayed revenge" systems in GEOstationary orbits - it would of course take hours for KVs to reach earth and "fall" on the head of Saddam, but that will still happen.

Plus I believe Bean hardened his COMSATs for the KV program. He'd be seriously foolish not to - the hardening costs percent of the satcost, but will be the last line of defense.

Remember that the over 1-megaton Starfish Prime took monts to degrade several satellites' components, at a 400 km altitude. And those were not the hardened sats (now we can harden satellites to extreme levels, if we launch stuff into GEO for example the GPS, so that they have a lifespan of years ;) )

It's safe to say that a nuclear HEMP will not immediately destroy Bean's entier sat group. Maybe it will damage the LOS strongly enough, but revenge will still come, in the form of area denial bombing of cities.

Even a gigantic 20 Megaton explosion in orbit - will fry all LEO sats, but will only damage >1000km sats at natural civilian hardening (2x against natural radiation) in around 2 hours. More than enough for Bean to vape everyone. Line of sight sats might suffer immediate accumulation of failure doses, but it won't take long for Bean's constellation to rain more death on you.

No, the common "nuclear explosions good counter' is wrong here.
Last edited by K. A. Pital on 2008-06-05 12:16am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Coyote »

Mr Bean wrote:Still not done catching up, but let me say now that getting to far ahead before I made the SECOND big reveal was a big mistake on some of your parts.

Let make it blunt, Sheppard first PM'd me to ask if I could join in the Nuclear holocaust he was planning for this week and I fucking turned him down. I convinced him that if he tried it everyone would just give up and go home and have themselves a good cry rather than participating, so I instead offered him a solution, let me kill you(in-game) because if the Super Saddam Special Bio-weapons everyone they won't mind, because you know Saddam threating to destroy the world is A-OK with everyone while if Sheppard does it, it's a bo-ho oh why me.
Huh? You presume too much, sir. I'd be as irritated if anyone turned the whole game into a global holocaust; I had no favorites about who did it.
Which is what I will post later this evening or first thing tomorrow, trust me pissing a hissy fit because I took care of the ruthless genocidal warmonger and then, you bastards had the gall to pitch a fit because I took care off someone who had decided to nuke the whole fucking world and had the nerve to get pissy with me. Instead of banding togther and saying, "Horray!, Good job old Bean, you killed the Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger before he could put his evil plan into motion and what's more your intelligence people engineered a coup to cease control of the largest stash of Nuclear weapons on the planet and were ready to start disarming them, leaving the world only to worry about Saddamstain which lets face if, if a second global push was made, would be fucked... fucked up the ass with a hedgehog.
Are you getting some of this in PM's or something? I didn't see anyone throwing a "hissy fit", just... shocked. Amazed. I think it actually played out quite well, with realistic balance between shock and restraint.

And dude, face it-- like it or not, after painting up Atlantis as a no-kill Diplomatic Disneyland zone, where only your people are armed, and then executing a guy right in front of us in the name of peace is... unsettling. Think about how that would play out in real life. At least the animals at Nuremburg got a show trial and a chance to defend their actions before being sent to the gallows.

But instead you got all pissy and the fact some of you decided that killing Sheppard was a "bad thing"(TM) potentionally resulted in a massive civil war in a country with nuclear weapons. Good frigging job, pat yourselves on the back your moral out-rage lead your countries right out of a possible peace and instead into a second coming nuclear war. And I'm sure as hell not going to save your ass a second time.
Why is our shock at Sheppard's manner of death the cause of some revolt in his lands? The scenario is plausible-- a cadre of the military loyal to Shep refuses to recognizes the new government... which is, after all, openly backed by a foreign puppetmaster (ie, Blackaddder). Remember, Blackadder's handling of the previous Libertopia crisis set the stage for the current mess; Shep left OMSK as a result, and then there's ol' Blackie again, executing the head of state who had not actually done anything yet and installing his butt-boy in a coup.

You don't see why there'd be a negative reaction to that? Seriously? And I haven't even gotten to how we finally got to talk to Saddamistan, and now they're mor eparanoid than ever, and most of us feel he's justified this time.

And this is "everyone else's" fault for being upset? WTF?

What's that psychosis where a person does vicious things to others and refuses to take responsibility for it, instead blaming others?

I mean, if the goal was global cooperation, you did that. We're all pretty much of a mind that Blackadder is couple fries shy of a full Happy Meal.
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Post by Coyote »

Mr Bean wrote:Oh yes, that was very much a peaceful action. Also he was tried to order a nuclear attack FROM A PEACE CONFERENCE
Um... after you threatened him...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Um... after you threatened him...
Sheppard made an ultimatum to the MESS without any negotiations; then started a war with you, remember.

"Threatened" doesn't even being to describe Shep. He was spoken to in the same language as he speaks - in the language of ultimatums. This ended in his death.

Also, it seemed that his nation's new government considered him a traitor, and thus ordered his execution by Bean.
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Post by Shinn Langley Soryu »

Poor Lelouch doesn't know what to think about Shep anymore. One minute, he's saying that he and Kallen would gladly pull out their gats and ventilate Shep's head with some .45 ACP. The next, he's eulogizing the man. I don't know if that makes him a hypocrite or just really undecided.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Look. If Bean slapped Shep with a glove and challenged him to a duel, or if he went "arrest that man" and if, a month later, we end up with a showtrial and Shep gets hanged, it would've been wonderful. Bean would've been the hero of the people.

He would've been The Man Who Saves The World.

But he went too far. It went from a citizen's arrest and became vigilante justice. You can't summarily execute people without a trial - and NOT in our equivalent of a UN Conference Hall.

Getting Shep to STFU and arrested with words and with the coup and with Blackadder's authority and with an orbital constellation of kill-sats would've been cool. It would've been awesome. Blackadder would've proved himself to be a Magnificent Bastard and we would've been in awe.

Executing Shep right then and there with the coup and with Blackadder's authority and with an orbital constellation of kill-sats was scary. Blackadder proved himself to be about as... I don't know.

Look. No single man has the right to be Judge Judy and Executioner. Shep should've been Nuremberged and then, after our kangaroo court judges him guilty, hanged. But apparently, Blackadder decided to have the right to be Judge Judy and Executioner - he decided to invest upon himself unlimited power.

Was Shep that bad? I don't know. I do know that he could've destroyed northern Canissia if he wanted.



You took it too far, that's all.
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Post by PeZook »

And we could've had cool plotlines with protests and intelligence games and fund raisers in Shepnukistan (HELP DEFEND SHEP OUR GLORIOUS LEADER!!!) and court room drama and Shepnukistani extremists taking hostages and demanding the release of Shep...

All we have right now is brain-stained ties :(
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Brain stained and brain numbed. The game has taken a bloody turn and really, the OMSK breakup was simply inevitable when it became clear that some members were pursuing their own agenda and expecting others to be at the beck and call irregardless of the opinions of the rest.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I really think Prime Minister Shroom is the soul of the SDnet world. Come on, his mental health reflects the geopolitical conditions of the New World at large. When all went to madness right after Bean killed Shep, Shroom degenerated into ritualistic donut-cannibalism in a metaphoric symbolism of a world gone mad.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I really think Prime Minister Shroom is the soul of the SDnet world. Come on, his mental health reflects the geopolitical conditions of the New World at large. When all went to madness right after Bean killed Shep, Shroom degenerated into ritualistic donut-cannibalism in a metaphoric symbolism of a world gone mad.
You mean the wine didn't help? :cry:
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Well, thanks to the company of your lovely people, Shroom is now perfectly sane :)

Goddamn it, mang. Does this mean you're not gonna pull through on those F-15 ACTIVEs and F-16 XLs?
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Post by K. A. Pital »

PeZook killed SNAKE! :lol:
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Well, thanks to the company of your lovely people, Shroom is now perfectly sane :)

Goddamn it, mang. Does this mean you're not gonna pull through on those F-15 ACTIVEs and F-16 XLs?
Depends. I still have some F-16s Left. I may order more F-15 ACTIVES.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Snake? Snake! SNAAAAAAKE!

Damn!

FISSION MAILED

TIME PARADOX


But we still have Solid Snail! :lol:
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Post by PeZook »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Snake? Snake! SNAAAAAAKE!

Damn!

FISSION MAILED

TIME PARADOX


But we still have Solid Snail! :lol:
You may take a page from the Shitty Japanese Plot Handbook and have Snake be a panicky genetically-engineered former criminal of an evil twin of Solid Snail :D

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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Can we clone him? Useful genes should not be wasted. *informs field agents to grab a sample of the DNA*
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Well, one of them probably has the most dominant genes in the planet :lol:

Perhaps Gaseous Snail/Snake can be revealed to be actually Prime Minister Shroom! The third clone! :o
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Wait the head of my Nazgûl security group is also named "Snake"
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Post by RogueIce »

Mr Bean
The main problem is, you did it at Atlantis. If you had gotten him into the UKB proper and blown his head off, that would've been different. You would have gotten the token public outrage (hey, gotta maintain appearances and all), but probably far more behind-the-scenes "Well it was tragic it had to come to that, but I think we can all agree it had to be done."

As it is, there is no doubt quite a bit of that anyway in private sentiment. But it still worries us that, some day, we'd be the ones who "had to go" and get popped at Atlantis. So needless to say, in-universe, we're all rather deeply unsettled. OOC we know you wouldn't do that without permission, of course. But IU we can't take that on good faith, y'see. :wink:

Plus, look at it from the MESS perspective. We'd pretty much gotten what we wanted out of him:
  • He rescinded the declaration of war
  • He was going to stand down to peacetime levels
  • He was going to pay reparations for his attack on TF-23 (and a joint deal would probably be reached for the artillery and airfield dual on both sides WRT Canissia)
  • He was accepting the arms limitations to Terra Libertia, in exchange for Neverhood resolutions, which near as I could tell were on terms pretty favorable to us anyway (accepting the current border, etc.)
  • No nuclear war (at least not this week)
Then you made that ultimatum, he freaked, you took over his government (basically), and then you shot him. At Atlantis, the whole island of neutrality. If you had done it anywhere else, or at least tried to hide it some (he negotiaties the treaty and goes home to find his VP taking power and some MPs riddle him with bullets; you take him to the UKB, have a "come-to-Jesus" talk with him and pop him in the head much as you did at Atlantis; you engineer a tragic "accident" that causes his plane to crash on the way home; etc.) things would have been different, I think.

Now though, we're left wondering whether the UKB would do the same thing if we go back to Atlantis and he thinks us a danger to the world...especially the MESS, who the former OMSK and then the UAR pretty much made a national pasttime out of painting us as the evil imperialist warmongers on a weekly basis.

Plus, with the way it played out, Saddamistan went from the very verge of being at least somewhat more open with the world, and is now basically back to being isolationist with far more paranoia of "the world is out to get me" than before. If he doesn't go with your ultimatum and you "Rods from God" him into submission, you'll probably get token protest but then we'd probably breath a sigh of relief...while of course working to counter your orbital KKV system out of principle. :wink:

As it is, given how it played out, we can't really go public with supporting you, and given what happened it's hard to trust you. And at the moment, people are still pretty much in shock at what happened (no surprise there). As time goes on we all may start to realize that it was sadly necessary and indeed for the greater good (some already have, and you even got a few who applauded you openly).

I think ultimately what you did will be like that bad-tasting but life-saving medicine. It had to be done, and after awhile we may even come to accept that. But it still doesn't quite get the bitter taste out of our mouth. :wink:
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PeZook
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Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Post by PeZook »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Can we clone him? Useful genes should not be wasted. *informs field agents to grab a sample of the DNA*
Well, he's dog food now.

*rimshot*

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all night!
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
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Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

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