SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK V

Post by **RogueIce** » 2008-07-04 05:11am

Incidently, if those missile operaters were indeed Dicoese and not Byzantine military, than any action Shepnukistan took against Byzantium would be an act of war against the MESS, as Byzantium took no aggressive action.

If they were Byzantine than the alliance stipulations wouldn't come into automatic effect and it'd basically be up to the Administrative Council as to our response.

Of course Shepnukistan, should they decide to act against Byzantium proper (a course of action I would not recommend) they'd better be damned careful. If they kill or injure other MESS personnel or civilians they'd be in for some trouble. Which basically means: you'd better watch it with the nukes.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-04 05:19am

Stas Bush wrote: However, with enough cobalt casing, my small arsenal is more than enough for a technical world killing.

The most scary thing is that...can a 50 megaton cobalt-encase bomb really kill the world?

Because, um...with it, you can basically end this game at any time

Just store the bomb underground, cart it out when the nukes are done flying and detonate it anywhere.

Scary.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2008-07-04 05:25am

Oh, the IRT will take its lumps over airspace violation (re: Alexander), though in this case Shep pretty much just thought it up, and it being late, I thought "eh, that would be cool" before I realized that I might need to get authorization for it.

As for contamination of Alexandria, it'll probably be minimal considering the hit was an airburst, AFAIK. If there is any contamination, I'll clean it up (properly, no giant nuclear bulldozers spreading dust

) for free ... at least what happens in Alexandria.

RogueIce wrote:So I'm thinking the blame for all of this lies not on Shepnukistan. But instead it is the fault of the Incorporated Republic of Tonkin, who through their reckless actions and complete disregard for Alexander's sovereignty caused this terrible incident to take place.

In this case, we were given authority to do what we needed to go help him take down his insurgents, drug smugglers, etc. I figured that a single unarmed airplane was safe enough, I guessed completely wrong

Stas Bush wrote:The IRT long posed itself as a UAR ally. A few cobalt bombs swung it's way can't hurt.

Good thing I have the heaviest IADS on the planet, with plenty of nuclear-tipped missiles to deal with stuff like what you're doing. Though I'm pretty much unable to shoot back at you considering the Bear is right in the way.

However, with enough cobalt casing, my small arsenal is more than enough for a technical world killing.

It probably would depend on wind patterns and whatnot. Your biggest danger is that the cobalt wouldn't disperse enough (for example, rain).

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-07-04 05:47am

The most scary thing is that...can a 50 megaton cobalt-encase bomb really kill the world?

It'd take a very long time, but generally it depends on the amount of cobalt you blow up into the atmosphere.

A 50-megaton blast would generate fallout on a footprint of several thousand km, that is not counting the global fallout. Of course, a 50-megaton dirty bomb would not wipe out the life on Real Earth due to scale. However, SDN World is different.

How much cobalt do we need? Well, technically, the entier SDN Archipelago is around 8 million sq.km.

Cobalt-60 produces a dust layer, making everything contaminated. 1g of cobalt:
"One gram of 60Co contains approximately 1.85 terabecquerels (50 Ci) of radioactivity. Held at close range, this amount of cobalt-60 would irradiate a person with approximately 0.5 gray of ionizing radiation per minute. A prompt, full body dose of approximately three to four grays would kill 50% of the population in thirty days, and could be accumulated in just a few minutes of exposure to a gram of 60Co."

This means that to reliably kill 90% of people in a few months, we would need to explode 80 tons of cobalt. (result in 1g per 100 sq.m)

In case we are content with people slowly dying over years with seriously increased mortality and diseases, i.e. say same effect in 2-3 years, we can scale the amount of cobalt necessary to say 10 tons

As I said, a 50 mt explosion would produce a huge enough foot print.

Almost all humans would die. f some are left out of the footprint, they would survive for a while, but the stratospheric global fallout will still catch up with them, raining disease and death, and rising death rates way beyond being compensated by births. Result would be, even if some survive, a totally destroyed society.

Blowing up 10 tons of cobalt in the central sea would contaminate the earth and water, resulting in the extinction of mankind in the course of year or two.

My RDS-220 is technically not yet fit for a mundicide (due to aerial explosion from Tu-95 for possible use as a bomb, it's casing is limited to 5 tons). But on the ground...

And there's enough cobalt to do it. The world produces 50 000 tons of cobalt yearly in RL. If you dedicated most of the cobalt you mine and posess for the weapon, you could do it.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2008-07-04 05:48am

RogueIce wrote:Allow me to clarify the above.

I'm not giving Shepnukistan a free pass. What they did was an overreaction and, simply, wrong. I'm just pointing out that they alone do not hold the blame for this incident.

Unfortunately for everyone involved, this was restrained for the UAR. It wasn't so much he was deliberately deciding to destroy a city in revenge insomuch as he doesn't care about collateral damage.

If it comes to war, then the IRT's role is indeed fairly minor, relatively speaking. They wouldn't warrant strikes at all.

For that matter, there is the minor issue that the IRT continues to maintain a nonaggression pact with both MESS and UAR.

However, if it stays within the realm of diplomatic and economic sanctions, that's where their role is of higher importance. Besides which, on a practical level, how many people have formal relations and trade with Shepnukistan anyway? It would be a bigger punishment for the IRT, frankly.

It has not yet become public knowledge that Alexander's airspace was violated, IIRC. He has remained quiet about the issue, though he could go public, press me for concessions, etc.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2008-07-04 05:57am

phongn wrote:Unfortunately for everyone involved, this was restrained for the UAR. It wasn't so much he was deliberately deciding to destroy a city in revenge insomuch as he doesn't care about collateral damage.

Good for him. The rest of us don't see it that way, however. And unless he's gone delusional (always a possibility) he has to know by now what we'd think of this.

Whether or not he personally chalks it up to "collateral damage" he'd have to truely be insane to think the rest of us see it that way. Saddamistan too.

Incidently, it wasn't restrained for the UAR, as I believe PeZook pointed out. Canissia shelled Shepnukistan and they got cluster bombs in return. There was no reason Shep had to go nuclear when we all know he has conventional options, and even used them in the past.

Granted he did fire nukes at TF-23 (which hadn't taken any aggressive action towards him at all...certainly not in the realm of shelling or shooting at aircraft). Which means he is, at best, pretty inconsistent with what is an "appropriate response".

For that matter, there is the minor issue that the IRT continues to maintain a nonaggression pact with both MESS and UAR.

Yeah. Like I said, if it does come to war the IRT wouldn't warrant strikes, not by us at least. Since you didn't fire anything at anybody.

Diplomatic and economic consequences are another matter if it goes public, but you already acknowledged that.

It has not yet become public knowledge that Alexander's airspace was violated, IIRC. He has remained quiet about the issue, though he could go public, press me for concessions, etc.

Well we'd have to wait and see at that.

Of course there is the fact my ambassador will no doubt be talking to Alexander about this anyway. Getting the facts and all. One of the questions would almost certainly be "Why was there a Shepnukistani aircraft in your airspace when you have no known current agreements with the UAR?"

Basically, like the IRT heavy strikes on the communes, a lot depends on what Alexander tells the rest of the world.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-04 05:57am

I personally think Alexander is secretly happy the Diocese will collapse again, leaving him with just the Sultan to contend with.

He'll keep quiet to not attract international attention, though, maybe saying he didn't know about the airplane at all, while secretly pressing the IRT for some concession or another. Really, unless Alexandria is contaminated, this bumps them up a few steps in the food chain.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2008-07-04 05:59am

PeZook wrote:I personally think Alexander is secretly happy the Diocese will collapse again, leaving him with just the Sultan to contend with.

He'll keep quiet to not attract international attention, though, maybe saying he didn't know about the airplane at all, while secretly pressing the IRT for some concession or another. Really, unless Alexandria is contaminated, this bumps them up a few steps in the food chain.

Well if he denies knowledge of the airplane but doesn't dime out the IRT, that puts Shepnukistan on the spot for violating Alexandrian airspace.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-04 06:04am

RogueIce wrote: Well if he denies knowledge of the airplane but doesn't dime out the IRT, that puts Shepnukistan on the spot for violating Alexandrian airspace.

Hence the "maybe". Best thing for him would be to tell the truth: he didn't know about it being a SHEPNUKISTANI airplane, it was the IRT who was supposed to be running his recon flights, and they didn't clear it with him.

Avoid drawing the UAR's attention

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2008-07-04 06:08am

PeZook wrote:Hence the "maybe". Best thing for him would be to tell the truth: he didn't know about it being a SHEPNUKISTANI airplane, it was the IRT who was supposed to be running his recon flights, and they didn't clear it with him.

Pretty much. It avoids pissing off the IRT and the UAR at once, gets him some concessions, etc. The IRT can issue a "mea culpa" that we forgot to clear it with him, but he can also make clear that he didn't consider it an airspace violation.

Meanwhile, the Diocese is fucked and Alexander can consider if he wants to do anything with it.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-04 06:09am

I'm not sure. See, the Diocesan is a Byzantine Protectorate. The question now is what I would do next. If I find the Iron General having his filthy paws on the problem, he's going to get cruise missiles loaded with a lot of pressurized Greek Fire warheads and one burnt out city.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-07-04 06:11am

Meanwhile, the Diocese is fucked

Don't be so fast. Invasion into the Diocese would result in war with Byzantium for Alexander. Whereas Shep is powerful and can posibly cower Byzantium not to reply with war, Alexander will suffer horrendously if he dares.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-04 06:13am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I'm not sure. See, the Diocesan is a Byzantine Protectorate. The question now is what I would do next. If I find the Iron General having his filthy paws on the problem, he's going to get cruise missiles loaded with a lot of pressurized Greek Fire warheads and one burnt out city.

Well, I would send aid, but I'm not a power-hungry Libertian warlord with an axe to grind

In fact, I will send aid right now. I can take food from strategic reserves, and if somebody lends me airlift assets - decontamination equipment.

A shipload of tents, clean sheets and basic medical supplies will probably go a long way, too.

This ain't much, but goddammit. I'm not going to shrug over thousands of people getting nuked.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-04 06:15am

Oh I already sent people down. I haven't gotten around write it yet. More decontamination squads and the airbourne units will go there in NBC gear to find out what the fuck happened.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2008-07-04 06:17am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I'm not sure. See, the Diocesan is a Byzantine Protectorate. The question now is what I would do next. If I find the Iron General having his filthy paws on the problem, he's going to get cruise missiles loaded with a lot of pressurized Greek Fire warheads and one burnt out city.

Stas Bush wrote:Don't be so fast. Invasion into the Diocese would result in war with Byzantium for Alexander. Whereas Shep is powerful and can posibly cower Byzantium not to reply with war, Alexander will suffer horrendously if he dares.

Don't confuse cause and effect here - the loss of one of their major cities (and ports) is what screws them over, plus the massive humanitarian crisis that'll come out. It may well be the straw that breaks the Diocese's back. As for invasion, I didn't say that, did I? Alexander is canny and has a number of options he can do.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-04 06:17am

Straw? It's more like a 20-ton steel I-beam dropping on the camel.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-04 06:19am

phongn wrote:Don't confuse cause and effect here - the loss of one of their major cities (and ports) is what screws them over, plus the massive humanitarian crisis that'll come out. It may well be the straw that breaks the Diocese's back. As for invasion, I didn't say that, did I? Alexander is canny and has a number of options he can do.

Hah. Actually, it makes the work of reorganising the Diocese easier. Simply because a shit load of poor people are dead. There's less people to feed. I guess it's time to move the capital eastward to a newer place which is more defensible.

At the end of the day, it becomes a fucking statistic. Now the issue is getting decontamination squads there.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2008-07-04 06:20am

PeZook wrote:Well, I would send aid, but I'm not a power-hungry Libertian warlord with an axe to grind

In fact, I will send aid right now. I can take food from strategic reserves, and if somebody lends me airlift assets - decontamination equipment.

A shipload of tents, clean sheets and basic medical supplies will probably go a long way, too.

This ain't much, but goddammit. I'm not going to shrug over thousands of people getting nuked.

Since you and the FUN have things under control in the Central Sea, feel free to use the CBRN personnel and equipment I sent over to aid the Diocese, as well as airlift assets.

I'll be likely diverting a hospital ship or two to the area myself.

As to the investigation I'm conducting, the simple fact is we'll never know what exactly took place in the SAM battery because of what Shepnukistan did. At this point all we can do is try to guess.

As for culpability, we'll never know for sure what part, if any, Byzantine military personnel played in the decision-making process. All we can do is try to determine to what degree they might have been authorized to participate, and try to guess from there whether what happened would count as Byzantine "aggressive acts" (thus negating an automatic MESS defense response) or if it was the Diocese. In which case Shepnukistan could be made to answer for the deaths of Byzantine military personnel and civilians in Magalia, as well as if he takes any further actions against Byzantium proper.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-07-04 06:25am

Alexander is canny and has a number of options he can do.

If Alexander condones the IRT and Shep activities which led to nuclear mass murder, the Diocese would immediately be in war with him.

Also, why hasn't Ramsley yet declared war on Shep? Fear perhaps...

Deplorable that the nation with a huge nuclear club can mass murder people and fear nothing.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2008-07-04 06:31am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Hah. Actually, it makes the work of reorganising the Diocese easier. Simply because a shit load of poor people are dead. There's less people to feed. I guess it's time to move the capital eastward to a newer place which is more defensible.

Well, to be fair, in this case it would've been just as indefensible against the sort of attack Shep launched.

At the end of the day, it becomes a fucking statistic.

Pretty much; there will be a lot of sound and fury.

Stas Bush wrote:If Alexander condones the IRT and Shep activities which led to nuclear mass murder, the Diocese would immediately be in war with him.

It could sort of be swept under the rug, pretty much, or Alexander could dance the line in order not to piss off the IRT and the UAR and the Diocese. However, the military balance of power strongly favors Alexander at the moment; the Diocese wouldn't want to piss off Alexander when they have huge problems of their own.

Also, why hasn't Ramsley yet declared war on Shep? Fear perhaps...

He'd be crazy to declare war on Shep. Insane. What if Shep returned and flattened all his military assets in a legal state of war?

Deplorable that the nation with a huge nuclear club can mass murder people and fear nothing.

To be blunt, isn't that how world politics usually goes? The guy with the biggest club gets away with all sorts of stuff?

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-04 06:33am

phongn wrote:Well, to be fair, in this case it would've been just as indefensible against the sort of attack Shep launched.

At the end of the day, it becomes a fucking statistic.
Pretty much; there will be a lot of sound and fury.

Shep isn't the main concern. After all, the Diocese simply doesn't have money for advanced equipment. The concern is the Iron General.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-04 06:39am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Shep isn't the main concern. After all, the Diocese simply doesn't have money for advanced equipment. The concern is the Iron General.

Nah, he won't move for war. He'll dance the line to avoid pissing people off, but if he tried for an outright land-grab, he'll risk war with Byzantium. And everybody else, too.

However, since the Diocese just lost a major piece of infrastructure, he can do nothing at all and still come out on top.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-04 06:40am

PeZook wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Shep isn't the main concern. After all, the Diocese simply doesn't have money for advanced equipment. The concern is the Iron General.
Nah, he won't move for war. He'll dance the line to avoid pissing people off, but if he tried for an outright land-grab, he'll risk war with Byzantium. And everybody else, too.

However, since the Diocese just lost a major piece of infrastructure, he can do nothing at all and still come out on top.

Well, to be honest, the infrastructure was rather primitive and in serious need of development, which was only beginning.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2008-07-04 06:41am

As a note: I may be out of contact this weekend as I'm helping my brother move. I have a nice, long, 850 mi drive ahead of me (each way!)

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-04 06:43am

Christ, 850 miles? Damn, I get dizzy after 400kms because of the sheer repetitiveness

On another note...FUCK. Was Magalia the only seaport? I will need somewhere to unload the ships.