SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Norade »

Norseman wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Norseman wrote:What I meant was that no one really commented on the battleship designs that I posted, I think they are fairly competent even if they aren't perfect, but I'm not sure.
I probably missed it. Where is it?
Right here kind of big for being missed ;)
You posted too much at once so eyes just kind of rolled over it.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Norseman wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Norseman wrote:What I meant was that no one really commented on the battleship designs that I posted, I think they are fairly competent even if they aren't perfect, but I'm not sure.
I probably missed it. Where is it?
Right here kind of big for being missed ;)
I will just comment on the latest ship, but the general advice Skimmer gave me is that the front of the turret should get as thick as armor as possible. Say 18". Also, lose the end belt armor.

Also, ah.. your ship is straining in open sea, and ditch the submerged torpedo tubes. Not a good idea. Also, what not just go with a 16"/50 gun instead of a bigger caliber and then increase the weight of the shells? Also, unless you insist on the 25knot speed, losing a knot or two might gain you a thicker armor belt.

Also, how much ammunition do you have?

I uploaded my own 50KT battleship on the wiki, with 18" belt, and 8" deck.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Based on the Hipper-class heavy cruiser.

I have no idea how thick the armour was on those things, so it may be kinda fucked up.
SpringSharp v3.3b wrote:Vindicador, Columbian heavy cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
14 018 t light; 14 535 t standard; 17 000 t normal; 18 972 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(688.98 ft / 688.98 ft) x 65.62 ft x (26.25 / 28.54 ft)
(210.00 m / 210.00 m) x 20.00 m x (8.00 / 8.70 m)

Armament:
8 - 7.87" / 200 mm 60.0 cal guns - 268.96lbs / 122.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 33.42lbs / 15.16kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
6 x Single mounts on side ends, majority forward
4 - 3.15" / 80.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 17.11lbs / 7.76kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 2 000 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2 625 lbs / 1 191 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 413.39 ft / 126.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 413.39 ft / 126.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 413.39 ft / 126.00 m 23.13 ft / 7.05 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.62 ft / 20.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 85 192 shp / 63 554 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 6 500nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4 437 tons

Complement:
743 - 967

Cost:
£2.913 million / $11.651 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 815 tons, 4.8 %
- Guns: 815 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 5 352 tons, 31.5 %
- Belts: 1 845 tons, 10.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 696 tons, 4.1 %
- Armament: 997 tons, 5.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1 702 tons, 10.0 %
- Conning Towers: 112 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2 979 tons, 17.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 873 tons, 28.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 982 tons, 17.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23 122 lbs / 10 488 Kg = 94.7 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.501 / 0.515
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Forward deck: 42.00 %, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Aft deck: 18.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 20.94 ft / 6.38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.3 %
Waterplane Area: 30 161 Square feet or 2 802 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 583 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The Valiente isn't based off of anything in particular at this point, so I'd like criticisms and comments and the like. Bear in mind that it is meant to operate around Columbia as a defense monitor, unlike the Vindicador.
Springsharp v3.3b wrote:Valiente, Columbian monitor laid down 1920

Displacement:
7 535 t light; 7 937 t standard; 8 750 t normal; 9 400 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(410.11 ft / 410.11 ft) x 65.62 ft x (21.33 / 22.56 ft)
(125.00 m / 125.00 m) x 20.00 m x (6.50 / 6.88 m)

Armament:
6 - 9.84" / 250 mm 60.0 cal guns - 522.19lbs / 236.86kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.77lbs / 13.96kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft
4 - 3.15" / 80.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 17.11lbs / 7.76kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 2 000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3 575 lbs / 1 622 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 246.06 ft / 75.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 246.06 ft / 75.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 246.06 ft / 75.00 m 18.50 ft / 5.64 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.62 ft / 20.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.87" / 200 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 4.92" / 125 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 14 821 shp / 11 057 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6 000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1 463 tons

Complement:
452 - 588

Cost:
£1.815 million / $7.261 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 035 tons, 11.8 %
- Guns: 1 035 tons, 11.8 %
Armour: 3 371 tons, 38.5 %
- Belts: 973 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 332 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 688 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1 306 tons, 14.9 %
- Conning Towers: 72 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 518 tons, 5.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 611 tons, 29.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 215 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14 607 lbs / 6 626 Kg = 30.6 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 3.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.65

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.534 / 0.542
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.59 ft / 7.19 m, 19.29 ft / 5.88 m
- Forward deck: 40.00 %, 19.29 ft / 5.88 m, 14.99 ft / 4.57 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 14.99 ft / 4.57 m, 14.99 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 14.99 ft / 4.57 m, 14.99 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 17.06 ft / 5.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.0 %
Waterplane Area: 18 495 Square feet or 1 718 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 614 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.42
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Last edited by Ryan Thunder on 2009-11-28 02:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Norseman »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Right here kind of big for being missed ;)
I will just comment on the latest ship, but the general advice Skimmer gave me is that the front of the turret should get as thick as armor as possible. Say 18". Also, lose the end belt armor.

Also, ah.. your ship is straining in open sea, and ditch the submerged torpedo tubes. Not a good idea. Also, what not just go with a 16"/50 gun instead of a bigger caliber and then increase the weight of the shells? Also, unless you insist on the 25knot speed, losing a knot or two might gain you a thicker armor belt.

Also, how much ammunition do you have?

I uploaded my own 50KT battleship on the wiki, with 18" belt, and 8" deck.[/quote]

Note that this is *all* my battleships from 1909 to 1925, so if you got comments o the rest that would be nice.

As for the slight strain, I decided not to be overly anal about getting exactly 1.00 since many historical designs didn't do that either. I may fiddle around a bit with the various armour elements though, to add a bit of turret armour. I am also going with 100 shells a gun I think, for the most part, even the Royal Navy only did a 120 a gun on average.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Norseman wrote:Note that this is *all* my battleships from 1909 to 1925, so if you got comments o the rest that would be nice.

As for the slight strain, I decided not to be overly anal about getting exactly 1.00 since many historical designs didn't do that either. I may fiddle around a bit with the various armour elements though, to add a bit of turret armour. I am also going with 100 shells a gun I think, for the most part, even the Royal Navy only did a 120 a gun on average.
Well, I haven't done a lot of work on the armor layout for the given tonnages, so I'm not entirely sure what's the best armor one could possibly squeeze out in those tonnages. I'd say at the least, your turret armor should match the belt, and the front being thicker at 18" possibly.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Norade »

How thick of a belt should I be looking at to defend against 16" and 18" guns? I was told that I can't go over 14" unless I wanted to go with a second layer behind the first, however some in this thread have been saying they're going with 18" belts.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Raesene »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Based on the Hipper-class heavy cruiser.

I have no idea how thick the armour was on those things, so it may be kinda fucked up.
SpringSharp v3.3b wrote:Vindicador, Columbian heavy cruiser laid down 1920

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 413.39 ft / 126.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 413.39 ft / 126.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 413.39 ft / 126.00 m 23.13 ft / 7.05 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.62 ft / 20.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.94" / 100 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm
Admiral Hipper:

Protection: 12-30mm upper deck; 20-50mm main deck; 70-80mm main belt; 70-105mm turrets; 50-150mm CT.

Your design is overarmoured by a factor of two at least.

I refer again to http://www.world-war.co.uk/index.php3 This site provides ship data, histories and pictures.

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Norade wrote:How thick of a belt should I be looking at to defend against 16" and 18" guns? I was told that I can't go over 14" unless I wanted to go with a second layer behind the first, however some in this thread have been saying they're going with 18" belts.
You can go thicker; its just resistance would not increase proportionally and really thick plates will get downright crappy. It quickly makes more sense to angle the belt and make it taller to obtain as similar level of protection. Indeed you can obtain a similar level of protection on about 10% less weight on paper doing this. Actual results will vary depending on the enemy gun and its angles of fall.

An angled 16in belt and 8in deck will provide an immunity zone of 20,000-30,000 meters against a moderately powerful 18in gun, which is all anyone, should have in the 1920s. That’s a nice broad zone to fight in. Anyone finding weight for an 18in belt is probably sacrificing something else to make that happen and not designing a balanced ship.

Heavy deck armor is generally more important then massively thick belts because high target angles can quickly make nearly any belt armor immune to penetration. Deck hits are also just statistically more likely to occur at any really significant battle range because its so much more target area.

Image

This chart illustrates the immunity zone concept, and the limitations target angle imposes on belt armor penetration. Notice only a very narrow band for this hypothetical ship, in which the belt can be defeated vs. a wide area from all angles in which the deck is exposed. More powerful guns will stretch that band outward, but the angle limitation doesn’t change.

Firing into the belt wider angles just results in the shell bouncing off or shattering without penetration, though this may still cause some damage. Exploiting angle induced protection is a major reason to wish for superior speed compared to an enemy battleline. But of course a battlefleet is no faster then its slowest ship.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Norade »

Well I have 14" 15 degree angle armor on my newest design. How would that hold up?
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Ma Deuce »

Raesene wrote:Admiral Hipper:

Protection: 12-30mm upper deck; 20-50mm main deck; 70-80mm main belt; 70-105mm turrets; 50-150mm CT.

Your design is overarmoured by a factor of two at least.
I would consider Hipper to be underprotected for a heavy cruiser, as only it's deck armor can be considered adequate against 8 inch gunfire as of WWII. I frankly cannot figure out for the life of me what all that tonnage on Hipper went to, unless they were using a horrifically heavy and inefficient propulsion plant (I think Skimmer once referred to them as the worst heavy cruiser design to see service in WWII). A better example of heavy cruiser armor protection on that tonnage would be the Baltimore class. Then again this is the '20s, and during this era APC shells for 8" guns were rare, so that level of of armor should be adequate against the far more ubiquitous "Common" or SAP projectiles in use at the time.

Also, a few words about cruisers in general for everyone's benefit: First, there was no such thing as a "heavy cruiser" in the '20s: That term is a creation of the London Naval Treaty of 1930 to differentiate 8" gunned cruisers from 6" gunned cruisers for the purposes of treaty limits. Before that time, even 8" gun cruisers were referred to as light cruisers or simply cruisers. Second, nobody is going to be laying down cruisers with battleship style turrets on barbettes in 1920. Any 8" gunned cruiser laid down then would look a lot like Hawkins or Furutaka (as completed, with the six single mounts). 8" Cruisers with enclosed twin gunhouses on barbettes weren't laid down until 1924 historically (in the case of the Kent and Aoba classes)
Norade wrote:Well I have 14" 15 degree angle armor on my newest design. How would that hold up?
That should be able to stop a typical 18 inch gun at maybe 25,000 yards. If you were to angle it out further to 20 degrees, you could probably reduce that by about 2,000 yards. Your 7 inch main deck should be proof against 18 inch gunfire out to 30,000 yards provided it's a single deck (multiple decks would be less), which gives you a less-than-ideal immunity zone of no more than 5,000 yards wide with your current belt.
Last edited by Ma Deuce on 2009-11-28 05:36pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Steve »

Hrm, I've been going with 10 degree belts. And should they be positive or negatively-inclined? I assumed positive as negative would mean downward-moving shells would hit more head on, not at an angle.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Sea Skimmer »

You would lose around 3,000 meters from the inner edge of the immunity zone leaving a band of about 23,000-30,000 meters. These figures are rough approximations at best, but either way it’s still respectable. I’ve pointed out before that British ships with 18in guns designed in the post Jutland period only had 14 or 15in belts, and some had as little 12in such as the K2/K3. Japanese ships had even less, and the US thinking for South Dakota and studies afterward was about the same as the British.

Belt armored should be angled to that the top is leaning out from the ship so that a shell falling at an angle will be deflected down. I got no clue what the 3.0 versions consider positive or negative.
Last edited by Sea Skimmer on 2009-11-28 05:28pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Norseman »

I consistently stick with 13.5" main belt for my ships, but I would be trying to use very high quality steel to make up for deficiencies in thickness. That's also why I chose 13.5" since I think it was the Americans (or the British) who found that this was as thick as they could make armour without hitting the point of diminishing returns. I also use 6" decks, but I might increase that even further in my 1927 ships.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Ma Deuce »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Belt armored should be angled to that the top is leaning out from the ship so that a shell falling at an angle will be deflected down. I got no clue what the 3.0 versions consider positive or negative.
Springsharp 3b3 considers a positive number for the belt angle to be an inward incline (top further out than bottom)
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Raesene »

Ma Deuce wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Belt armored should be angled to that the top is leaning out from the ship so that a shell falling at an angle will be deflected down. I got no clue what the 3.0 versions consider positive or negative.
Springsharp 3b3 considers a positive number for the belt angle to be an inward incline (top further out than bottom)
Isn't it an outward incline if the top is further away from the centerline ?
Hoewever, I think positive value means upper end closer to the centerline than lower end.

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Okay... How about this?
Springsharp v3.3b wrote:Vindicador, Columbian cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
9 986 t light; 10 405 t standard; 12 000 t normal; 13 276 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(656.17 ft / 656.17 ft) x 65.62 ft x (19.69 / 21.25 ft)
(200.00 m / 200.00 m) x 20.00 m x (6.00 / 6.48 m)

Armament:
8 - 7.87" / 200 mm 60.0 cal guns - 275.58lbs / 125.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
8 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 33.42lbs / 15.16kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3.15" / 80.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 17.11lbs / 7.76kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 2 000 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2 678 lbs / 1 215 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 20.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 16.47 ft / 5.02 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.62 ft / 20.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 35 202 shp / 26 260 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 10 000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 871 tons

Complement:
573 - 745

Cost:
£2.001 million / $8.003 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 978 tons, 8.2 %
- Guns: 978 tons, 8.2 %
Armour: 3 885 tons, 32.4 %
- Belts: 1 455 tons, 12.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 472 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 822 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1 047 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Towers: 89 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1 231 tons, 10.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 891 tons, 32.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 014 tons, 16.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24 872 lbs / 11 282 Kg = 101.9 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.60

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.496 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 20.63 ft / 6.29 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 58.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 187.0 %
Waterplane Area: 28 571 Square feet or 2 654 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 112 lbs/sq ft or 548 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Raesene »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Okay... How about this?
Springsharp v3.3b wrote:Vindicador, Columbian cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
9 986 t light; 10 405 t standard; 12 000 t normal; 13 276 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(656.17 ft / 656.17 ft) x 65.62 ft x (19.69 / 21.25 ft)
(200.00 m / 200.00 m) x 20.00 m x (6.00 / 6.48 m)

Armament:
8 - 7.87" / 200 mm 60.0 cal guns - 275.58lbs / 125.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
8 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 33.42lbs / 15.16kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3.15" / 80.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 17.11lbs / 7.76kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 2 000 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2 678 lbs / 1 215 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 9.71 ft / 2.96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 20.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 16.47 ft / 5.02 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.62 ft / 20.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 35 202 shp / 26 260 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 10 000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 871 tons

Complement:
573 - 745

Cost:
£2.001 million / $8.003 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 978 tons, 8.2 %
- Guns: 978 tons, 8.2 %
Armour: 3 885 tons, 32.4 %
- Belts: 1 455 tons, 12.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 472 tons, 3.9 %
- Armament: 822 tons, 6.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1 047 tons, 8.7 %
- Conning Towers: 89 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1 231 tons, 10.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 891 tons, 32.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 014 tons, 16.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24 872 lbs / 11 282 Kg = 101.9 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.60

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.496 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 20.63 ft / 6.29 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 58.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 187.0 %
Waterplane Area: 28 571 Square feet or 2 654 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 112 lbs/sq ft or 548 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.15
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
L60-weapons are a no go if my memory serves.

I'd recommend adding misc. weight for aircraft 25t/plane. A cruiser is a scouting asset, and planes enhance the visual range ;-)

Your speed of 25 kts for a cruiser is too slow - its purpose is to scout ahead of your own battlefleet and escape the enemy battleships to report, or run down commerce raiders. Several battleships posted here are faster than 25 kts, and most battlecruisers would catch your cruiser and have it for breakfast. 30kts are in my opinion the minimum for a cruiser laid down in 1920, the higher, the better.

Skip the upper armour, and use a larger height for the main belt. Also, set the angle to a negative value, otherwise it is angled in a way that's worse than usual.

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Norade »

Alright using the suggestions from you guys here this is my new design. I have the 15" belts angled at 25 degrees, but if that is too much I can change it back to 20 degrees but beyond that she seems to be a decent boat.
PSS Titan, Portugal Battleship laid down 1926

Displacement:
50,977 t light; 53,704 t standard; 55,947 t normal; 57,741 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(816.15 ft / 787.40 ft) x 114.83 ft x (37.73 / 38.70 ft)
(248.76 m / 240.00 m) x 35.00 m x (11.50 / 11.80 m)

Armament:
9 - 18.00" / 457 mm 52.0 cal guns - 3,400.00lbs / 1,542.21kg shells, 80 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal guns - 114.33lbs / 51.86kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 32,836 lbs / 14,894 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.0" / 381 mm 483.39 ft / 147.34 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: 5.00" / 127 mm 304.01 ft / 92.66 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Upper: 5.00" / 127 mm 413.39 ft / 126.00 m 12.07 ft / 3.68 m
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
4.00" / 102 mm 413.39 ft / 126.00 m 34.52 ft / 10.52 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 8.00" / 203 mm For and Aft decks
Forecastle: 5.00" / 127 mm Quarter deck: 5.00" / 127 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 55,904 shp / 41,704 Kw = 22.00 kts
Range 9,100nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,037 tons

Complement:
1,818 - 2,364

Cost:
£18.191 million / $72.763 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5,552 tons, 9.9 %
Armour: 22,932 tons, 41.0 %
- Belts: 7,249 tons, 13.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,112 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 4,398 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 8,795 tons, 15.7 %
- Conning Tower: 378 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,789 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 20,703 tons, 37.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,970 tons, 8.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
74,295 lbs / 33,700 Kg = 25.5 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 13.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 19.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.99
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.574 / 0.578
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 32.81 ft / 10.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.92 ft / 6.68 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.0 %
Waterplane Area: 64,538 Square feet or 5,996 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 249 lbs/sq ft or 1,217 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
School requires more work than I remember it taking...
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Alright, the Vindicador's length has been increased to 220 m, draught to 7.00 m, and standard displacement to 13 533 tonnes. Top speed increased to 30 knots, and range decreased to 9 200 nautical miles at 20 knots. Upper armour removed in favour of a main belt with a negative 20-degree incline and with height increased to 4.2 metres.

Scratch the plane for now since Colombia doesn't have an Air Force. I'll add them to a future design.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Steve »

Who has torpedo bulges on their ships? SpringSharp has a flaw where it lets you add them on the hull page, gaining composite strength for your ship, without adding them on the armor page.

Or is this a flaw? I've heard it is from one quarter, but I'm open to hearing other views.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Steve wrote:Who has torpedo bulges on their ships? SpringSharp has a flaw where it lets you add them on the hull page, gaining composite strength for your ship, without adding them on the armor page.

Or is this a flaw? I've heard it is from one quarter, but I'm open to hearing other views.
Are you talking about bulges, or torpedo bulges? They are two different things.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Steve »

Hrm? In what way?

I'm referring to the Bulge feature on the hull tab in springsharp, plus its entry in the armor page.
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"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Ma Deuce »

Or is this a flaw? I've heard it is from one quarter, but I'm open to hearing other views.
I use them, and as far as I can tell it isn't a bug. Real ships were often built with bulges on top of their main hull structure, which not only provided torpedo defense by increasing the depth of the void space, but also increased buoyancy for minimal cost and weight. Older ships had bulges tacked on during refits to compensate for weight growth. HMS Hood had bulges installed during construction to compensate for the extra armor that was added after she was laid down, while others had them by design. The "Bulge" fields in the armor page only specifies if that bulge happens to be skinned with armor. Springsharp assumes these bulges are entirely underwater, and there are drawbacks to using them to put extra stuff on your ship rather than outright making it larger, such as that it decreases the ship's reserve buoyancy and thus overall resistance to penetrating hits. Bulging also affects speed calculation as much as if the entire hull was that wide.
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Steve »

Really? Hrm, will have to bring that up with my other advisors....
'
Anyway, bed time. G'night.
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"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
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Re: SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

Post by Norseman »

Alright taking into account the advice I've received from various people I've redesigned the 1925 ships while staying within the 55000 ton limit for ships laid down in 1925. This is the class that makes the Ministry of Industry and Armaments and the Ministry of Finance weep like a schoolgirl seeing her first... *cough* but never mind here you go:

Code: Select all

BNS Goiás, FSR of Brazil Battleship laid down 1925

Displacement:
	51,595 t light; 54,714 t standard; 58,723 t normal; 61,930 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
	824.38 ft / 808.00 ft x 122.00 ft x 34.75 ft (normal load)
	251.27 m / 246.28 m x 37.19 m  x 10.59 m

Armament:
      12 - 16.50" / 419 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2,246.06lbs / 1,018.80kg shells, 1918 Model
	  Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
	  on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (8x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1906 Model
	  Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
	  on side, all amidships
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
	  Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
	  on side, evenly spread
      16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1915 Model
	  Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts 
	  on side, evenly spread
      12 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (8 mounts), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
	  Machine guns in deck mounts 
	  on side, evenly spread
	Weight of broadside 28,821 lbs / 13,073 kg
	Shells per gun, main battery: 120
	2 - 24.5" / 622.3 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:		Width (max)	Length (avg)		Height (avg)
	Main:	15.0" / 381 mm	425.00 ft / 129.54 m	18.00 ft / 5.49 m
	Ends:	Unarmoured
	  Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
		4.00" / 102 mm	808.00 ft / 246.28 m	30.00 ft / 9.14 m

   - Gun armour:	Face (max)	Other gunhouse (avg)	Barbette/hoist (max)
	Main:	18.0" / 457 mm	12.0" / 305 mm		14.0" / 356 mm
	2nd:	1.50" / 38 mm	1.00" / 25 mm		1.00" / 25 mm
	3rd:	      -		      -			1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 7.50" / 191 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
	Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, 
	Geared drive, 3 shafts, 100,006 shp / 74,605 Kw = 25.43 kts
	Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
	Bunker at max displacement = 7,216 tons

Complement:
	1,885 - 2,451

Cost:
	£17.302 million / $69.206 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
	Armament: 3,603 tons, 6.1 %
	Armour: 23,832 tons, 40.6 %
	   - Belts: 5,256 tons, 9.0 %
	   - Torpedo bulkhead: 3,588 tons, 6.1 %
	   - Armament: 4,594 tons, 7.8 %
	   - Armour Deck: 10,003 tons, 17.0 %
	   - Conning Tower: 391 tons, 0.7 %
	Machinery: 3,247 tons, 5.5 %
	Hull, fittings & equipment: 20,814 tons, 35.4 %
	Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7,128 tons, 12.1 %
	Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
	Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
	  82,507 lbs / 37,424 Kg = 36.7 x 16.5 " / 419 mm shells or 16.6 torpedoes
	Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
	Metacentric height 9.4 ft / 2.9 m
	Roll period: 16.7 seconds
	Steadiness	- As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
			- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
	Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
	Hull has a flush deck
	Block coefficient: 0.600
	Length to Beam Ratio: 6.62 : 1
	'Natural speed' for length: 28.43 kts
	Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
	Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
	Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
	Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
	Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
	   - Stem:		31.27 ft / 9.53 m
	   - Forecastle (18 %):	19.90 ft / 6.07 m
	   - Mid (50 %):		19.90 ft / 6.07 m
	   - Quarterdeck (18 %):	19.90 ft / 6.07 m
	   - Stern:		19.90 ft / 6.07 m
	   - Average freeboard:	20.70 ft / 6.31 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
	Space	- Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.8 %
		- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.0 %
	Waterplane Area: 72,097 Square feet or 6,698 Square metres
	Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
	Structure weight / hull surface area: 219 lbs/sq ft or 1,072 Kg/sq metre
	Hull strength (Relative):
		- Cross-sectional: 0.98
		- Longitudinal: 1.16
		- Overall: 1.00
	Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
	Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
	Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
	Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Norseman's Fics the SD archive of my fics.
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