SDN Worlds 4 Commentary Thread II

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

That's usually the part where you fall back

Technically, we are like the Bragulans; we simply bring out a bigger hammer, and press harder.

[Shroom Man 777]

Bragulans do not have retreat. But they have "make adequate space to allow for nuclear bombardment". It's basically a retreat though, since Bragulans cover their retreats with nukes. And their advances. And their flanking maneuvers. And their surprise attacks too!

[Siege]

You're all crazies. The Sovereignty would place a bunch of pancakers and vamoose it the hell outta there .

[KlavoHunter]

Klavostan is glad to continue its good relations with the Imperium as it fights against such a scourge that can bring weapons like that to bear - We do not envy the Imperium the social sacrifices it has to make to fight such enemies!

Titans and such on that scale are nigh-unheard of, save for super-heavy command/shieldgenerator tanks. Fortunately, there's plenty of 'clean' fusion-nuke artillery on call... between that and the MBTs, such a relatively 'small' biotitan could probably be dealt with fairly quickly.

[MKSheppard]

Wait until you see the truth behind BRAGSDAY!

[Simon_Jester]

The Umerians have nothing on titan-scale; meeting something like this would be a job for naval fire support, a strike mechanized brigade, or more conventional armor and mobile artillery units operating in division or corps strength- possibly larger if we're up against the really big boys.

Then again, we have the numbers to do something like that...

[Ryan Thunder]

Eh, I just have bolos and Armoured Core NEXTs in all but name.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, a Bolo is a fair match for a titan, at least capable of playing on the same field.

All my tanks are built to more normal scale.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Umerians have nothing on titan-scale; meeting something like this would be a job for naval fire support, a strike mechanized brigade, or more conventional armor and mobile artillery units operating in division or corps strength- possibly larger if we're up against the really big boys.

Then again, we have the numbers to do something like that...

Assuming your population has the stomach for heavy losses too...

[Simon_Jester]

What, relative to the size of the population?

Yes, if we took something on the order of a billion casualties in wartime it would probably cause problems on the home front, unless we were fighting defensively. But if we had to lose several armored divisions fighting a titan-class opponent... it would be bad, but we could spin it.

I mean, the Technocracy has free speech, but it also has state control of the main media organs. And a population that gets "shut up and calculate" hammered into them fairly well- they're capable of comprehending that losing a few hundred thousand mechanized troops out of a population of 260 billion is not the end of the world.

And that's assuming we don't handle the problem with orbital fire support.

Umeria is not a "human wave" country, but we're socially not like the highly casualty-averse Western democracies of the turn of the 21st century. You really could make a case for it being a bit like the old-time Soviet Union, but without the ideology and some of the more problematic aspects that made the system fall apart. There are disadvantages to that (the system doesn't look good from Captain John Tamrin's point of view, and he's not entirely wrong), but it does at least let us wage a serious ground war in the numbers needed to invade and occupy planets if we have to.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

The SOS Imperial Armed Forces used to have Bolo analogues, but they were put into reserve storage after the pacification of the Risea Sector. Current doctrine for dealing with Titans or similarly-sized foes is to just withdraw and glass them from orbit.

The reason why there are no Titan analogues in SOS Imperial Armed Forces service is due to cultural reasons. Long story short, Empress Haruhi hates mecha. She doesn't begrudge people who do use them, though; she certaintly respects the Imperium for finding a way to make such impractical monstrosities work.

Also, as you can see by my latest Gallia post, my battle scene writing definitely needs some work.

[Simon_Jester]

The SOS Imperial Armed Forces used to have Bolo analogues, but they were put into reserve storage after the pacification of the Risea Sector. Current doctrine for dealing with Titans or similarly-sized foes is to just withdraw and glass them from orbit.

That's probably galactic standard. No matter how big a ground unit may be, it's not going to be big and tough enough to handle capital ship fire unless it is, in essence, a capital ship on wheels... and something that mountainous is a problem from hell when it comes to transportation and logistics.

Naturally, people who field ground units that big will take pains to ensure space superiority, and the superheavy ground units will have respectable antiship firepower in their own right (in sufficient tonnage)... but it's still a much more logical solution than trying to imitate your enemy's superheavies purely for the sake of having something to throw into the line on the occasions when one of them shows up.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Nonsense. The Imperial Army doctrine never assumes it will always be guaranteed orbital support. THe Imperial Army prepares itself for the possibility that it will be fighting on the ground for weeks to months to a year over, and that in that time, the enemy could send reinforcements to attempt to break the blockade and during that crucial period, the Imperial ARmy might be caught between a rock and a hard place. The Imperial Army also knows that it will always face defences that demand capital scale weaponry to overcome, and thus ensures that it has its own weaponry to break down enemy defences, with or without orbital support. Further, such hard targets are expected to have capital scale defences, and fleet elements would be working hard to suppress them and likely not be able to give the Imperial ARmy any form of support.

It is for this reason, that the Astartes also have their own heavy ground support ships, in the form of corvettes that descend to the surface and provide the heavy firepower right to the enemy's doorstep.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shinny animus!

Kawaii desu sama!

=^__________________________________^=

[K. A. Pital]

Since folks are talking about robots... The Commune posesses huge nanorobotic clouds a-la The Day the Earth Stood Still remake to disassemble enemy crap in case of dire need; for all other things it relies on orbital firepower.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Since folks are talking about robots... The Commune posesses huge nanorobotic clouds a-la The Day the Earth Stood Still remake to disassemble enemy crap in case of dire need; for all other things it relies on orbital firepower.

The Imperium would be sure to take out a shit load of ECM/ECCM and its own nanorobotics if it faces the Commune then.

[Simon_Jester]

Nonsense. The Imperial Army doctrine never assumes it will always be guaranteed orbital support.

"Takes pains to ensure" is not the same as "assumes it will have." Granted the Imperial Army is unusually independent of space support, but without it it runs into the very real danger that its own superheavies will be targeted by orbital weapons too powerful for even a Titan to handle. That's what I would expect Imperial doctrine to call on the Navy to do: to make sure that at a bare minimum the enemy does not gain total space supremacy over the planet for any extended period of time. If this happens, the Army forces on the planet cannot survive indefinitely, and are liable to suffer badly asymmetric losses to enemy orbital bombardment.

Conversely, the more naval-oriented powers' first goal would be to break an Imperial blockade to make the task of dealing with superheavies more straightforward- or, in some cases (such as Umeria), if the necessary mass is present, try to engage them by sheer mass of smaller ground units.

It works well enough against the occasional Gargant we find ourselves dealing with... granted that we're more tactics-savvy than the orks, which helps a lot.

It is for this reason, that the Astartes also have their own heavy ground support ships, in the form of corvettes that descend to the surface and provide the heavy firepower right to the enemy's doorstep.

We have a similar concept with our frigates (ha, you say, mere minimicroparasite warships that do not realize their pitiful status!), which are designed for atmospheric fire support even though their main antiship weapons don't work well in air. Also with our strike cruisers (HA!, you say, so puny!), but with more specialized space-to-ground and air-to ground weapons.

Beyond that, I figure that Heavy and larger ships of over 100 points can't land anyway, so it stands to reason that they aren't used for space fire support in any event.

The Imperium would be sure to take out a shit load of ECM/ECCM and its own nanorobotics if it faces the Commune then.

Who wouldn't?

[Darkevilme]

Since folks are talking about robots... The Commune posesses huge nanorobotic clouds a-la The Day the Earth Stood Still remake to disassemble enemy crap in case of dire need; for all other things it relies on orbital firepower.

The Chamarran's are eternally grateful for their investment in putting energy shields on all personnel and manned vehicles, helps deal with this sorta crazy stuff(also good for those creepy scarabs the collectors use).

Also it would appear the Commune is somewhat lacking when it comes to solidarity with workers of the galaxy at large.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying about the lack of solidarity.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Takes pains to ensure" is not the same as "assumes it will have." Granted the Imperial Army is unusually independent of space support, but without it it runs into the very real danger that its own superheavies will be targeted by orbital weapons too powerful for even a Titan to handle. That's what I would expect Imperial doctrine to call on the Navy to do: to make sure that at a bare minimum the enemy does not gain total space supremacy over the planet for any extended period of time. If this happens, the Army forces on the planet cannot survive indefinitely, and are liable to suffer badly asymmetric losses to enemy orbital bombardment.

Taking pains isn't enough. You haven't fought a war of annihiliation before, whereas the Imperium has in the past fought over a rock for a year over. In a meat grinder situation, the Navy cannot be relied upon for support all the time.

Obviously, if the naval support is gone, the game is quite up. But it's not like we wouldn't support our Titans with plenty of infantry.

Conversely, the more naval-oriented powers' first goal would be to break an Imperial blockade to make the task of dealing with superheavies more straightforward- or, in some cases (such as Umeria), if the necessary mass is present, try to engage them by sheer mass of smaller ground units.

The Imperium dosen't walk away quietly. Likely we will detonate our stock of plasma/bio/nuclear weapons, leaving the ground so irradiated/contaminated that the land will take ages to recover.

Detonation of plasma explosives might shatter the crust in the local area come to think of it.

It works well enough against the occasional Gargant we find ourselves dealing with... granted that we're more tactics-savvy than the orks, which helps a lot.

Who gives a shit about orcs? The Imperium would have glassed/blown the planet to bits.

In fact, I was just talking to Shady and decided; Janus will be glassed after the colony is evacuated and the crust so broken to bits it will never again be resettled with its tectonic plates in complete disarray. I could try destroying the planet outright, but Steve would scream.

We have a similar concept with our frigates (ha, you say, mere minimicroparasite warships that do not realize their pitiful status!), which are designed for atmospheric fire support even though their main antiship weapons don't work well in air. Also with our strike cruisers (HA!, you say, so puny!), but with more specialized space-to-ground and air-to ground weapons.

What are you talking about? These ships were designed specifically to go into the atmosphere. So specialised there are only 9 of them (100pts each). The only other ships that can go land on solid ground are 75pt corvettes.

[Darkevilme]

I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying about the lack of solidarity.

I really expected them to meddle. They seemed the type to meddle. No matter though, i'll go engage in a punch up with the Pfhor once i've suitably suppressed my revolutionaries.

[Siege]

Frankly I think all of y'all are being terribly inflexible. You're treating planets like something you have to cling to because it's real hard to get on or off them, when that's really not the case. Sovereignty doctrine is for the USSF to establish a foothold in orbit large enough that it allows the USMC to land; the Marines can then operate under theater shields just fine even if total orbital supremacy hasn't been achieved. And if through some unforeseen circumstances the USSF is forced out, as happened on Majella, the Marines simply pack up and leave with them. The task force can then either decide to high-tail it or wait for reinforcements.

Landing and moving troops about might seem like a challenge in our time, but with the preposterous amounts of energy we've got to throw at problems why bother leaving the troops in a tight spot? They can just lift up and reinsert at a more advantageous position, either directly or at a later time. If your troops end up in a "heroic last stand" type of scenario, you've made a big-ass mistake somewhere: no matter where you are on a planet, space is always just a handful of kilometers away, and you really should be making the most of that fact.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Frankly I think all of y'all are being terribly inflexible. You're treating planets like something you have to cling to because it's real hard to get on or off them, when that's really not the case. Sovereignty doctrine is for the USSF to establish a foothold in orbit large enough that it allows the USMC to land; the Marines can then operate under theater shields just fine even if total orbital supremacy hasn't been achieved. And if through some unforeseen circumstances the USSF is forced out, as happened on Majella, the Marines simply pack up and leave with them. The task force can then either decide to high-tail it or wait for reinforcements.

Landing and moving troops about might seem like a challenge in our time, but with the preposterous amounts of energy we've got to throw at problems why bother leaving the troops in a tight spot? They can just lift up and reinsert at a more advantageous position, either directly or at a later time. If your troops end up in a "heroic last stand" type of scenario, you've made a big-ass mistake somewhere: no matter where you are on a planet, space is always just a handful of kilometers away, and you really should be making the most of that fact.

That assumes one has some degree of space control, and that the orbiting fleet hasn't being torn to shreds.

[Siege]

Allowing your orbiting fleet to get "torn to shreds" would count as a big-ass mistake in my book. Nobody in their right mind would operate large numbers of ground forces without any degree of space control, and if you're at risk of losing that control you can always just spacelift your assets out before beating a hasty tactical retreat.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Allowing your orbiting fleet to get "torn to shreds" would count as a big-ass mistake in my book. Nobody in their right mind would operate large numbers of ground forces without any degree of space control, and if you're at risk of losing that control you can always just spacelift your assets out before beating a hasty tactical retreat.

Space lifting takes time if you have 1 million troops on the ground? I would imagine at least an hour unless you expect them to abandon their equipment?

The fleet can always abandon the ground troops to their fate, to be sure. Any siege fleet has to be constantly reinforced, but the longer they are there, the harder it is to just "pack up and go". Unless units used are strictly high mobility.