Sea Skimmer wrote:I’ve gotten my basic divisional TO&E up for people to look at, brigades, regiments and battalions are going to wait until after I get the Air Force and Navy Done. Also before anyone even asks, yes I have a lot of airborne forces, but what I don’t have is anything like the airlift to move them all at once, so in practice airborne units serve mainly as elite infantry.
Just a question, since everyone missed the question I asked a page or two ago, how many C-17 or An-124 will it take to cart around 30 BMP-3s or LAV III?
Has there been any precedent for airbourne forces being equiped with MBTs?
Sorry... was going to answer, then got distracted. The answer is: depends on the length of the vehicle, relative to the length of the cargo compartment. For An-124s, you can fit 5 into the cargo deck. C-17s can fit 3. So you'd need 6 An-124s or 10 C-17s to move 30 LAV-IIIs. The answer is similar for BMP-3s, but you have much tighter fits on the An-124, so you might end up needing to only load 4 per An-124, resulting in a need for 8 An-124s.
Airborne forces do not normally operate MBTs, simply because you can usually fit at most 2 to a transport, and they tend to be hard to air drop.
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
Beowulf wrote:Sorry... was going to answer, then got distracted. The answer is: depends on the length of the vehicle, relative to the length of the cargo compartment. For An-124s, you can fit 5 into the cargo deck. C-17s can fit 3. So you'd need 6 An-124s or 10 C-17s to move 30 LAV-IIIs. The answer is similar for BMP-3s, but you have much tighter fits on the An-124, so you might end up needing to only load 4 per An-124, resulting in a need for 8 An-124s.
Airborne forces do not normally operate MBTs, simply because you can usually fit at most 2 to a transport, and they tend to be hard to air drop.
Alright thanks.
In that case, I'll stick with BMP-3s or LAV III, whichever I wish to grab. Planning to follow the Russian model for Airbourne units.
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Zor wrote:One thing that we should work out is economics. I have two questions that you guys need to adress
1-What Economic Model you are using? I was going to go with a rather convetional Market economy with social programs model and Stas will likely go with a more Soviet Union style command economy with a few Market elements model, but what of you?
Conventional market with a lot of social programs conceived by insane politicians who hate each other and who are loathed by aristocratic billionaires.
2-What is the basis of your economy? What manufacturing do you have? What resources do you posses? What crops to you grow? and so on.
We make chocolates and truffles. We also export high-quality machineries, from airplane engines to Shroom Army Knives to Florex watches to Mercedes Shroomz automobiles.
Made in German- I mean, Shroomania.
"DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source) shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN! Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people - PeZook Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Raj Ahten wrote:Shroom Man, I just thought of a better reason than I had previously to have Indhopal break from Shroomania's Commonwealth. Basically Indhopal would fight hard for Shroomania during the war, but after it was over, the government and people of Indhopal would stand for nothing less than independence after all their sacrifices.
Won't being part of the Commonwealth make you as independent as Australia and Canada, and everyone will be happy?
Or is that not enough?
Maybe after the War of the Worlds, if your people REALLY wanted independence, an exhausted Shroomania could hold a very pompous "independence" ceremony and we'd give Indhopal a "honorable discharge" from its colonial status.
We could settle this very amicably, and have very respectful and friendly relations between our countries.
"DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source) shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN! Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people - PeZook Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Zor wrote:One thing that we should work out is economics. I have two questions that you guys need to adress
1-What Economic Model you are using? I was going to go with a rather convetional Market economy with social programs model and Stas will likely go with a more Soviet Union style command economy with a few Market elements model, but what of you?
Free market economy, but with sizable government investment and government regulation. A socialist system is in place, but I'd try to make people fund their own pensions, while ensuring free health care. Education has a base price however, while scholarships are widely available and easily accessible.
2-What is the basis of your economy? What manufacturing do you have? What resources do you posses? What crops to you grow? and so on.
Zor
Precision machinery, heavy industries, cars, tanks, semiconductors, shipyards, some degree of indigenous aircraft design and manufacturing (along the lines of Sweden), wide array of high tech products, software, a large financial system (but regulated), agriculture (Wines, rice, whatever Greek or Turkey has, I have) and some other service industries. I definitely want Uranium, iron, niobium (superconductivity FTW)... I haven't thought about other things. I definitely get my oil from Arabia but it's not really my default territory.
Come to think of it, I don't mind losing 20% of the population in exchange for improved productivity/education. 30 million is fairly large. I don't need that many. Maybe 24 million is a nicer number.
Maybe I ought to script a meltdown somewhere.
Last edited by Fingolfin_Noldor on 2008-08-13 12:28pm, edited 2 times in total.
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Zor wrote:1-What Economic Model you are using? I was going to go with a rather convetional Market economy with social programs model and Stas will likely go with a more Soviet Union style command economy with a few Market elements model, but what of you?
Market with vehement anit-trust laws, and some social programs. (Light Healthcare, Public Schooling, possibly public utilities)
Zor wrote:2-What is the basis of your economy? What manufacturing do you have? What resources do you posses? What crops to you grow? and so on.
-Wines/Alcohol
-Other Grape Products
-Other Temperate Valley crops.
-Mineral Mining (Currently unspecified, though I am working on narrowing my mineral resources down.)
-Light Manufacturing.
-Research & Development.
EDIT:What are the populations?
This is an empty country and I am it's king, and I should not be allowed to touch anything.
I'm not 100% sure about most of my economy. I do know farming will be very important in some sectors and that Indhopal will be a big agricultural exporter and inovator. Besides that there would be some homegrown defense industries, mostly known for their mine resistent vehicles. I also plan on producingg SAAB Gripen jets, which would be availible for export. For other industries, perhaps a good mix of manufacturing is in order, most of it going to satisfy the needs of the other nations on my continent. There are plenty of third world markets right on my doorstep, so everything from concrete to consumer goods would likely be in demand.
Indhopal's governemnt now supports a wide variety of social progams and regulations meant to look out for the little guy and keep the markets honest, but the government mostly prefers a light hand. Things like electricity and other utilities remain state monopolies, and transit is heavily subsidized in Indhopal, partly because of the large amounts of rural land in the country.
Zor wrote:1-What Economic Model you are using? I was going to go with a rather convetional Market economy with social programs model and Stas will likely go with a more Soviet Union style command economy with a few Market elements model, but what of you?
The Duchy of Langley is a tightly-regulated free market with heavy socialist leanings. Public utilities, free public education at the primary and secondary levels with easily accessible scholarships for college/uni, and some free health care are all available.
Zor wrote:2-What is the basis of your economy? What manufacturing do you have? What resources do you posses? What crops to you grow? and so on.
Manufacturing in the Duchy of Langley is limited mainly to toys, consumer electronics, and war materiel such as firearms, small ships, and license-built aircraft. Natural resources include gold, nickel, copper, chromite, silver, and cobalt. Crops are anything that can grow in a tropical environment (rice, cassava, yams, citrus fruits, bananas, pineapples, et cetera).
As it was in the old SDN World, the Duchy of Langley plays host to a large entertainment industry. All those coups couldn't prevent the studios from bringing cartoons and video games to the masses.
I ship Eino Ilmari Juutilainen x Lydia V. Litvyak.
Phantasee: Don't be a dick.
Stofsk: What are you, his mother?
The Yosemite Bear: Obviously, which means that he's grounded, and that she needs to go back to sucking Mr. Coffee's cock.
"d-did... did this thread just turn into Thanas/PeZook slash fiction?" - Ilya Muromets[/size]
The Army Brigade is used as the basic building block.
A Western-style Army Brigade will have about 2,500 men in it (give or take).
Western ("NATO" or US-style) Brigades will have 4 vehicles in a Platoon.
The point costs here reflect a Western style Brigade.
Eastern-Bloc style Brigades have three vehicles per Platoon, and number about 2,000 men.
Eastern-Bloc Brigades are 1 point cheaper to reflect this.
Technically, you can buy MORE Eastern-block Brigades, but they will be about 1/3rd smaller then their Western counterparts.
The Examples:
Some examples are given to explain equipment/kit and tech generations (ie: "Professional" (1985-2000 gear):
Mechanized Infantry Vehicles: BMP-3; Bradley; Warrior IFV). These are presented to give you a ballpark idea of what type of equipment is exemplified by that tech and equipment level. It does not necessarily mean that EXACT vehicle must be used. Bear in mind this is a different world with its own history. You can use "something LIKE a Bradley, but called the "M-5 Dark Horse IFV" or whatever.
===================================
INFANTRY BRIGADE: (-1 for Eastern-Bloc)
Infantry, Light (marching, or trucks when not near fighting): 2 points
Infantry, Airborne (parachute or easily carried in front-line transports): 3 points
Infantry, Motorized (wheeled vehicles): 4 points
Infantry, Mechanized (tracked vehicles): 5 points
TRAINING MODIFIERS:
Screaming Horde: 0 points.
(Only available for "Infantry, Light")(point in general direction and fire from hip at full-auto)
Conscript Training: +1 to cost per Brigade.
(most basic: operate & clean a gun safely, move in formation, take cover)
Professional: +2 to cost per Brigade
(basic + improved marksmanship, professionalism, initiative, 1st aid, camouflage, patrolling, navigate, communicate)
Legacy/Guards Brigade: +3 to cost per Brigade
(exceptionally high standards, history to live up to, special assault/storm training)
Elite Forces Infantry (Rangers): +5 to cost of Brigade; limited to 2 such BrigadeS per country level.
Special Forces Brigade: +10 per cost of Brigade; limited to 1 such Brigade per country level.
("Green Berets"; Spetznaz; SEALS; Delta; GSG-9; Sayyeret Matkal; SAS, etc)
EQUIPMENT MODIFIERS:
"Warlord Militia" (1917-1950 era equipment): +0 cost to Brigade.
Personal Gear: Bring your own gun, food, ammo
Vehicles: Foot or animal-back
"Third World" (1950-70 era equipment): +1 cost to Brigade.
Personal Gear: AK-47, canteen, pack, some bread, uniform, blanket, steel helmet.
Motorized Infantry Vehicles: BTR-152; M2/3 Halftrack; OT-810 Halftrack; BTR-60/-60P/-60PB series.
Motorized Infantry Vehicles: BTR-50; MT-LB; BMP-1
"Conscript" (1970-85 gear): +2 to Brigade.
Personal Gear: Basic kit plus a few amenities, survival-cube food, sleeping bag.
Motorized Infantry Vehicles: BTR-70/-80 series; Ratel-90
Mechanized Infantry Vehicles: M-113; BMP 2; BMD; Marder; IDF Akhzarit
TRAINING MODIFIERS:
Screaming Horde (In other words, "Technicals"): 0 points.
Conscript Training (most basic training): +1 to cost per Brigade.
Professional Service (basic plus professionalism, initiative): +2 to cost per Brigade
Legacy/Guards Brigade (exceptionally high standards, history to live up to): +3 to cost per Brigade
EQUIPMENT MODIFIERS:
"Warlord Militia": +0 cost to Brigade.
Armored Cars: Technicals w/Machinehguns, RPGs (civilian pickups, surplus army jeeps, etc)
Tanks: Bulldozers with sandbags, plywood, and welded-on steel plate.
AVIATION BRIGADE: (-1 for Eastern-Bloc)
Aviation, Light Helicopter (light-armed scout helos, limited lift capacity): 2 points
Aviation, Attack Helicopter (combat gunships & scouts, limited lift capacity): 3 points
Aviation, Heliborne Assault (air cavalry-- scouts, gunships, troop-landing helos): 4 points
Aviation, Tactical Strike (fighter planes for close-air support, no real lift capacity): 5 points
Aviation, Tactical Transport (transport planes like C-130s for troop-landing): 5 points
TRAINING MODIFIERS:
Disorganized Barnstormers: 0 points.
Conscript Training (most basic training): +1 to cost per Brigade.
Professional Service (basic plus professionalism, initiative): +2 to cost per Brigade
Legacy/Guards Brigade (exceptionally high standards, history to live up to): +3 to cost per Brigade
Elite/Special Forces Aviation (for Rangers/SF): +5 to cost of Brigade; limited to 2 such Brigades per country level.
BONUS: TACTICAL TRANSPORT with ELITE KIT comes with 4 airborne Gunships (AC-130 "Spectre" type, etc).
EQUIPMENT MODIFIERS:
"Disorganized Barnstormers": Bring your own Refit WW2 and 1950's-era propellor plane: +0 cost to Brigade.
"Third World": Early jet age/1950's & 60's era. +1 cost to Brigade.
"Conscript": Cold War era 1970's & 1980's type aircraft: +2 to Brigade.
"Professional": High-performance 1990's era aircraft: +3 cost to Brigade.
"Elite Kit": Latest generation/Space-age/edge-of-atmosphere stuff: +4 cost per Brigade.
===================================
BUILD-YOUR-OWN AIR FORCE:
Fighter Flights: Cost per flight of 4 planes
Air Superiority Fighters: dogfight to dominate the skies; clear a path for your bombers; intercept enemy bombers.
4 points = 5th Generation (2000-->): F-22; F-35; Sukhoi PAK/FA; Shengyang J-XX
2 points = 4th Generation (1970-99): Mirage 2000; MiG-29/31; JAS 39; F-15 -16 -18; Eurofighter Typhoon, Tornado
1 point = 3rd Generation (1960-70): MiG-23 -25; etc.
.5 point = 2nd Generation (1953-60): Mig-21, Saab-35 Draken; Etendard-IV; F-8 Crusader; F-104 Starfighter
.25 point= 1st Generation (1944-53): P-80 Shooting Star; Me-262; F-86 Sabre; MiG-17; Gloster Meteor
CAS Fighter / Tactical Bomber: Cost per flight of 4 planes
Medium-Range, fast-strike bombers of 45,000 lbs. payload or less. Good for clearing enemy formations, forts, or SAM sites.
4 points = 5th Generation (2000-->): F-117; Su-25
2 points = 4th Generation (1970-99): MiG-27, Su-27; A-10 Thunderbolt; Panavia Tornado; Su-24; F-15E Strike Eagle
1 point = 3rd Generation (1960-70): F-4 Phantom; F-105 Thunderchief; A-6 Intruder; Su-17; F-111
.5 point = 2nd Generation (1953-60): Mystere-IV; Hawker Hunter
.25 point= 1st Generation (1944-53): A-1 Skyraider
TRAINING MODIFIERS:
Disorganized Barnstormers: 0 points.
Conscript Training (basic fly out/fly back; dodge & evade; let missiles do the work): +1 to cost per Flight.
Professional Service (Very good evasion, dogfighting initiative): +2 to cost per Flight
Legacy Squadron (exceptionally high standards, history to live up to): +3 to cost per Flight
Elite/Top Guns: +5 to cost of Squadron; limited to 2 such Squadrons per country level.
Red Squadron OPFOR (Aggressor Training Squadron): +5 to cost of Squadron; limit 2 such Squadrons per country level.
LIMITATION: This training package has limitatations: you MUST purchase the "Red Squadron/OPFOR" Kit; Squadron does not deploy to combat. Cannot be applied to Bomber forces.
EQUIPMENT MODIFIERS:
"Disorganized Barnstormers"/Gen-I: Bring your own Refit WW2 and 1950's-era propellor plane: +0 cost to Flight.
"Third World"/Gen-II: Early jet age/1950's & 60's era. +1 cost to Flight.
"Conscript"/Gen-II-III: Cold War era 1970's & 1980's type aircraft: +2 to Flight.
"Professional"/Gen-III-IV: High-performance 1990's + era aircraft: +3 cost to Flight.
"Elite Kit"/Gen-IV-V (limited): Latest, 5th-Generation/Space-age/edge-of-atmosphere stuff: +4 cost per Flight.
Red Squadron OPFOR (Aggressor Training Squadron): +5 to cost of Squadron; limit 2 such Squadrons per country level.
Aircraft of Foreign Manufacture for realistic dogfight training.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Raj Ahten wrote:Shroom Man, I just thought of a better reason than I had previously to have Indhopal break from Shroomania's Commonwealth. Basically Indhopal would fight hard for Shroomania during the war, but after it was over, the government and people of Indhopal would stand for nothing less than independence after all their sacrifices.
Won't being part of the Commonwealth make you as independent as Australia and Canada, and everyone will be happy?
Or is that not enough?
Maybe after the War of the Worlds, if your people REALLY wanted independence, an exhausted Shroomania could hold a very pompous "independence" ceremony and we'd give Indhopal a "honorable discharge" from its colonial status.
We could settle this very amicably, and have very respectful and friendly relations between our countries.
I'm sort of torn about what Indhopal's relations to the "mother country" should be. Indhopal would have been a real asshole with its foreign policy for years after world war I and II. The Independnece party wanted nothing less than polittical and economic, if not military, domination of the continent, and woked thrrough many devious programs to bring that about. Would post war Shroomania want to abe asociated with a nation with such ambitions? If Shroomania protested too loudely, the dicks in the Independence policy would likely cut ties. The curent alliane of poowers that run things, The Movement for Demcratic Change, is far more amicable to foreign relations and would likely welcome stronger ties with Shroomania. Their foreign policy priorities would be stabilizing the neighborhood (which is now totally fucked up) and keeping new exploitative powers out of the area.
SiegeTank wrote:Rampant capitalism, of course! The city-state itself is run as a company, and possesses significant amounts of stocks of San Dorado's biggest industries. In turn, most of the CEOs of those industries sit on the Board of Directors, making the whole affair rather incestuous. San Dorado is as libertarian as it can get away with without collapsing into utter anarchy (though some would say this has already happened, of course).
So you're Phong's little brother, country-wise?
Although you'll probably annoy some of us less simply because you won't have the economy and/or manufacturing ability he'll have.
So basically, it'll be a little while before Stas deals with you.
Zor wrote:1-What Economic Model you are using? I was going to go with a rather convetional Market economy with social programs model and Stas will likely go with a more Soviet Union style command economy with a few Market elements model, but what of you?
I will power my economy through sheer force of personal will. I will be like a God and the people will worship me.
Now that I've preempted Shady, my real answer is probably the whole market economy with social programs thing.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
Zor wrote:One thing that we should work out is economics. I have two questions that you guys need to adress
1-What Economic Model you are using? I was going to go with a rather convetional Market economy with social programs model and Stas will likely go with a more Soviet Union style command economy with a few Market elements model, but what of you?
Well, I haven't really fleshed all this out, so if there's something in here that won't work, lemme know.
Sirnoth ostensibly has a free market economy. However, most of the industries are owned by a few big corporations, which are in turn dominated by old money families. This is a legacy from the colonial days, where Shroomania simply took control of the existing feudal culture. The various Great Houses of Sirnoth are always trying to cut off a piece of each other's little empires, so this prevents them from getting too complacent. In summation, there is rather high concentration of wealth in the hands of the upper class. However, a Gilded age style monopoly setup is not in effect, since the competition between corporate interests keeps things at a reasonable level.
There is an extremely powerful head of state, who can in theory nationalize all private industry, but the ensuing economic upheaval this would cause means he will not do so. Also, competing for market shares keeps the aristocracy from eyeing his seat.
There are a number of social programs to keep the lower classes pacified. Every citizen of Sirnoth with a stated income below a certain amount is given basic necessities such as housing, clothing, and 3 meals a day. All citizens are given free medical care and financial assistance for education. This is made possible by the oil revenues from the state owned Sirnoth Petroleum Company.
2-What is the basis of your economy? What manufacturing do you have? What resources do you posses? What crops to you grow? and so on.
Zor
Sirnoth has two major resources: Oil and Food. The eastern archipelago has the oil reserves, and the lands around the Elysium river are so fertile they can sometimes produce two crops a year. Crops include grain, citrus fruits, and vegetables.
As for industry, Sirnoth can produce anything the USA could, circa 1990. Modern technology has to be imported. Sirnoth has a local armaments industry, producing weapons circa 1980s.
In essence, Sirnoth industry can make almost anything it needs, but not with the capabilities of more modern equipment.
Ryan Industries specializes in medical technology, ocean related business (i.e. Kelp farming and deep sea mining), as well as making a number of consumer goods.
The Sirnoth economy has a growing services sector, but with most still employed in agriculture or manufacturing.
Red Orchid Services is the world's first publicly traded prostitution industry. It controls 45% of the market in Sirnoth, with plans to expand overseas.
Despite their history, Sirnoth maintains close ties to Shroomania, so the possibility of joint financial endeavors is a strong one.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Just a question, since everyone missed the question I asked a page or two ago, how many C-17 or An-124 will it take to cart around 30 BMP-3s or LAV III?
C-17 can transport two of either type at a time because of the limited length of the cargo hold. An-124 can certainly carry five BMP-3s, it may actually be just barely wide enough to fit two rows for a total of ten, but I don’t think that’s a realistic payload since you’d literally have about one inch to spare. Also keep in mind the C-17 can land on dirt strips with a major payload, and is generally much smaller and more suited to tactical operations, while the An-124 needs pretty big paved runways to fly at all. Its more properly compared to a C-5 Galaxy which has a similar runway limitation.
In real life Russian airborne forces use the BMD-1/2/3 and not BMPs, which are a lighter and a bit smaller. Heres the OOB for a real Soviet Air Assault Brigade, which could be moved by 25 x An-124 sorties
AIR ASSAULT BRIGADE: 2500+ personnel
a. Brigade HQ: 3 SA-7/14/16
b. 2 Assault Battalions (BMD): 34 BMD, 8 120mm mortar, 6 AGS-17, 9 SPG-9 and 9 SA-7/14/16 per Battalion
c. 2 Parachute Battalions: 500 pers, 6 manpack ATGM, 8 120mm mortar, 6 AGS-17, 9 SPG-9 and 9 SA-7/14/16 per Bn
d. 1 Recon Company: 4 BRDM-2
e. 1 Artillery Battalion: 18 D-30, 6 BM-21
f. 1 Air Defense Battery: 6 ZU-23, 6 SA-7/14/16
g. 1 Engineer Company
h. 1 Anti-tank Company: 9 BRDM-3, 6 SD 44
Has there been any precedent for airbourne forces being equiped with MBTs?
The US and Soviet Union assigned very small numbers of MBTs to airborne forces. However actually parachute dropping main battle tanks is impossible, they have to be air landed onto at least a dirt runway which has been captured by other forces. In addition since MBTs weight so much no transport able to land on a dirt runway can carry more then one MBT at a time. If you have nice big paved runway then an An-124 could land with up to 3 x 50 ton tanks, or 2 x 70 ton tanks, while the C-5 is limited to 2 x 50 tonners or 1 x 70 tonner. C-17 can carry 1 x 50 tonner onto a dirt runway, I don’t think a 70 ton tank can be landed on dirt, but it could be carried for normal landings.
If you want to parachute drop equipment, the best parachute rig around in real life belongs to the US Army and can support up to 52,500lb. That will let air drop a BMP-3 and several kinds of light tanks, but its nothing even close to an MBT.
The US Army did air land 17 x M1 tanks in Iraq in 2003, but it was onto a paved runway with zero opposition after the 173rd Airborne brigade parachuted down into the arms of waiting friendly Kurdish forces.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
RogueIce wrote:
I will power my economy through sheer force of personal will. I will be like a God and the people will worship me.
Now that I've preempted Shady, my real answer is probably the whole market economy with social programs thing.
There can be only one.
*declares war*
Seriously go for it. I am calling my self President now or PM.
Zor wrote:
1-What Economic Model you are using? I was going to go with a rather convetional Market economy with social programs model and Stas will likely go with a more Soviet Union style command economy with a few Market elements model, but what of you?
I'm with Stas. Socialist.
2-What is the basis of your economy? What manufacturing do you have? What resources do you posses? What crops to you grow? and so on.
I haven't worked this out yet but I'm thinking Uranium.
Skimmer, are "airborne" restrictions on MBTs the same for LAPES or does that allow for heavier drop loads?
Also, as for economy:
Heavily regulated free market free market with a lot of Socialist civil programs.
Canissian Libertarians are of the Libertarian Left variety: the government should pick up the cost for those pesky social programs so that business is free and unfettered to thrive: "Why should my car company have to run a health care program? Bah! I'm running a car company! Let the government handle it while I build cars!" That sort of mentality.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Sea Skimmer wrote:C-17 can transport two of either type at a time because of the limited length of the cargo hold. An-124 can certainly carry five BMP-3s, it may actually be just barely wide enough to fit two rows for a total of ten, but I don’t think that’s a realistic payload since you’d literally have about one inch to spare. Also keep in mind the C-17 can land on dirt strips with a major payload, and is generally much smaller and more suited to tactical operations, while the An-124 needs pretty big paved runways to fly at all. Its more properly compared to a C-5 Galaxy which has a similar runway limitation.
In real life Russian airborne forces use the BMD-1/2/3 and not BMPs, which are a lighter and a bit smaller. Heres the OOB for a real Soviet Air Assault Brigade, which could be moved by 25 x An-124 sorties.
Ok, but the problem is the BMD-3s aren't very well-armoured compared to the BMPs which make them death traps right?
If An-124s are used, do they air drop the whole lot, given that they can't land and off load all that in a warzone?
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Coyote wrote:Skimmer, are "airborne" restrictions on MBTs the same for LAPES or does that allow for heavier drop loads?
The USAF proposed a 60,000lb LAPS rig for the C-17 but never developed it. The heaviest LAPS rig actually in service is limited to 42,000lb. LAPS is extremely violent on the piece of equipment being delivered, and it wasn’t uncommon for M551s to have broken suspension or crack hull plates when dropped in that manner. No way are you ever going to deploy a 50+ ton MBT with that kind of system. You simply have to land
At best you could use LAPS to drop off a bunch of bulldozers and build yourself a rough strip over the course of a day or so, or maybe bulldoze down all the trees ect... along a stretch of straight road. The minimal C-17 rough strip in dry conditions is 3,500 x 90 feet, but with greatly restricted payload. I believe a 5,000 foot rough strip allows for something like 2/3rds payload but this is also dependent on how much fuel the aircraft has (one assumes it has to carry enough to fly back home, no rough strip refueling!). If you have the luxury of a paved runway, then as little as 3000 feet is sufficient for limited payload flights. Anyway I’ve got a PDF file somewhere which spells this all our, going off memory right now, I’ll try to dredge it up.
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Ok, but the problem is the BMD-3s aren't very well-armoured compared to the BMPs which make them death traps right?
The BMP isn’t exactly well armored to start with, it’s significantly superior to the BMD in frontal armor, but both vehicles have flank armor proof only against 7.62mm gunfire and maybe .50cal gunfire in very favorable substances (sharp angle, ball ammo being fired at long range). Protection against RPGs is just about nil. This thin protection is the price of amphibious capability, which the Russians considered essential. You could however add 3-4,000lb of flank armor to either vehicle and still be able to parachute drop the thing.
Note that one of the reasons why the BMD is so light is that the Russians not only wanted to air drop it; they also wanted to easily be able to move it around with large helicopters.
If An-124s are used, do they air drop the whole lot, given that they can't land and off load all that in a warzone?
Yeah I’d be an air drop. But if at all possible you’d still want to use smaller planes for the initial assault. A big plane like the An-124 is best used for logistics flying between well equipped airfields, and perhaps to air land follow on forces after your airborne troops have reasonably secured a real airfield.
***
As for economics, the Japanistani economy is mixed. Large industries are generally state owned or in the hands of extreamly large corporations that take orders from the government anyway. Considerable central economic planning goes on and transportation and energy sectors are run by the government. However the individual Japanistani citizen can and does own and operate for profit businesses and industry and the government clumsily attempts to encourage private sector growth. Considerable light and medium industry has developed to serve an export market which gleefully sucks up cheap Japanistani crap. So its something like modern China. Japanistan has considerable natural resources including the worlds largest coal reserves, but its weak in oil and certain strategic minerals.
Last edited by Sea Skimmer on 2008-08-13 10:31pm, edited 1 time in total.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Sea Skimmer wrote:The BMP isn’t exactly well armored to start with, it’s significantly superior to the BMD in frontal armor, but both vehicles have flank armor proof only against 7.62mm gunfire and maybe .50cal gunfire in very favorable substances (sharp angle, ball ammo being fired at long range). Protection against RPGs is just about nil. This thin protection is the price of amphibious capability, which the Russians considered essential. You could however add 3-4,000lb of flank armor to either vehicle and still be able to parachute drop the thing.
Note that one of the reasons why the BMD is so light is that the Russians not only wanted to air drop it; they also wanted to easily be able to move it around with large helicopters.
I'm beginning to wonder whether the LAV-III is a better idea, just fit a BMP-4 turret on it. Then again, the LAV-III needs a lot of add-on armour as well.
Yeah I’d be an air drop. But if at all possible you’d still want to use smaller planes for the initial assault. A big plane like the An-124 is best used for logistics flying between well equipped airfields, and perhaps to air land follow on forces after your airborne troops have reasonably secured a real airfield.
Has there been precedent of airdropping bulldozers to clear a runway or something?
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder whether the LAV-III is a better idea, just fit a BMP-4 turret on it. Then again, the LAV-III needs a lot of add-on armour as well.
The basic LAV-III has better flank armor, but not as good frontal armor compared to the BMP-3, its all around superior to the BMD-3, but then it damn well should be since it’s a couple tons heavier. Without heavy add on armor none of these vehicles have any defense against RPGs. Which one you use is not going to make any terribly great difference. I suggest you use whichever one seems most compatible with the non airborne portion of your army to simplify logistics.
Has there been precedent of airdropping bulldozers to clear a runway or something?
I’ve never heard of air dropping per say; but in Vietnam the US did more then once blow a hole in the jungle with a Daisy Cutter bomb, rappel down men from a hovering chopper with chainsaws to make it bigger, and then landed bulldozes as helicopter sling loads to make it even bigger then that. Once or twice they went even further and plowed out a C-130 strip, and certainly bulldozers moving overland stopped more the once to build C-130 capable airstrip. The process would be much easier if you start with an open field rather then forest.
In normal operations though you simply don’t need to build an airfield, because you’ll deliberately land your airborne forces right on top of an existing airfield, or close to one, which will then be captured as the first objective. Of course, the enemy is smart too, and may anticipate that kind of assault. Actually building an airfield from scratch will only be viable in the face of a weak enemy or in a remote area. Still its a tactic worth keeping in mind.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
I've added up the major weapons of my active divisions (but not all the supporting brigades ect… that’s probably going to increase everything by about 25%) and it works out to be 7,089 tanks, 11,450 IFV/APCs/LAVs, but this isn’t counting all armored vecicals period), 9,199 artillery pieces, mortars and rocket and missile launchers over 120mm caliber and 1,740 VSHORAD and SHORAD vehicles.
No small force, but hey, in real life Iraq had that many tanks in 1991, and North Korea has more artillery today. Also this doesn’t account for the fact that some of my ‘active’ divisions actually have about 1/3rd of there forces in the reserves. Also a good number of the IFV/APC/LAV category vehicles are very light, essentially armored hummves in size and suited only for fighting insurgents on New Sumatra.
So yeah anyway basically this all means the numbers Ive given aren’t accurate at all, but it at least gives everyone the ball park Japanistani mechanized forces are in. The total is 42 active infantry and armor divisions, I plan on 28 reserve divisions but very few will be mechanized formations. Every division in the OOB now has a ‘Total’ category ito show just what it has for equipment on its own, those numbers are firm.
Last edited by Sea Skimmer on 2008-08-13 10:53pm, edited 1 time in total.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
BMDs as assault armor really is quite dangerous. A BMD really is nothing more than something for the troops to ride on once they land so they don't get tired from marching. It has some capacity to protect from shrapnel, I suppose, and does carry a handy gun system, but when push comes to shove it's just an improved version of the Vickers Universal/Bren Gun Carrier.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Hmm…. Urge to produce 20,000 Bren gun carriers rising…..
The BMD is enough armor and firepower to ensure you don’t get bogged down on the way from the landing zone to the objective by some random enemy MP platoon with rifles and machine guns, or a field kitchen company with pistols, and that’s all it really needs to do. That kind of opposition is what doomed the British at Arnhem, random German rear area units bogged them down on the way to the bridge long before any Panzers got into action.
That’s also a good reason to retain the amphibious capability and not add more armor; it gives tremendous flexibility in choice of landing zones and routes relative to the objective. Imagine Arnhem if the British could have immediately cross the Rhine and assaulted Arnhem bridge from both ends. They might not have won, but certainly the odds would have been much more favorable.
Last edited by Sea Skimmer on 2008-08-13 11:01pm, edited 2 times in total.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
The ASU-57 and ASU-85 was useful, at least, in that it brought a big(ger) gun down with the Desantniks. That's certainly nothing to sneeze at. So it had about, what, 1.5 inches of armor? It's better than carrying a goddam Karl Gustav on your back.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Coyote wrote:BMDs as assault armor really is quite dangerous. A BMD really is nothing more than something for the troops to ride on once they land so they don't get tired from marching. It has some capacity to protect from shrapnel, I suppose, and does carry a handy gun system, but when push comes to shove it's just an improved version of the Vickers Universal/Bren Gun Carrier.
But that aside, I guess the key issue is to ensure airbourne units don't get involved in fist fights too much, except on the long range.
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
I always liked the way the ASU-85 looked; latter Soviet airborne forces replaced the ASU-85s with a detachment of BRDM-3 armored cars with ATGMs, and I think we all know how downright ugly a BRDM is.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
"
- PeZook
