SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VII

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, if he wants a cheaper cruiser, there's the ~17000-19000 tonnes destroyer I have.

[K. A. Pital]

There's also the Anchar DDGN/CGN - a few new hulls could be retired under "special price" to serve for Langley if he finds them sufficient for the tasks he has:


Not now of course, but as soon as at least first 2 Contradiction-class nuclear cruisers are commissioned.

[Lonestar]

Actually, me and Beowulf have been discussing jointly constructing a "Light Patrol Frigate" in the form of a Milgem derivative(smaller gun,no harpoons, larger VLS). The proliferation of subs has caused us to determine there is a market for such a beast.

[Steve]

Firstly, the North Velerian population is primarily Arabic-Persian in ethnicity, not Asian or Mestizo.

Secondly, I suppose I should just post my Veleria map again.

*map snipped*

Your short response regarding pre-determined specific ethnicity kind of made my eye twitch a little, and also got me thinking. Here's some of those thoughts.

Firstly, kudos to you for actually using 'Mestizo' in a sentence. Don't see that much.

I rather think that the ethnicity of Velarian nations should be left somewhat vague and intermixed, rather than outright declaring such and such place is Persian, whereas such and such place is African. It basically limits people to whatever has already been decided about a place, so it should be left vague, especially in a game set on an alternate world where people from another dimension were randomly teleported in by Q and where space-vampires are (were?) an actual potential threat. And while I'm on this, I'd like to bring up the fact that the terrain of Veleria should also be kept somewhat vague, though kept within reasonable bounds. I mean, it would be out of place to have tundra in the middle of the steaming equatorial continent or ancient bocage in a third-world failed state that consists primarily of sand.

Consider that this stuff was already decided months ago and that some story posts have been made confirming the character of local ethnicities. Now, I don't object to a little diversity (For instance, Coyote make the Katangwa group African, not Arab-Persian) but there needs to be some logical correlation between which ethnic groups are where. I've already stated, for instance, that Adabani has Persian and Arab-style ethnicities, so logically neighboring countries would have similar ethnicities.

Now I'm not opposed to some Asiatics in Veleria. We have them in Messica and in the island countries of Serenity and Zoria between Messica and Veleria, so it's possible some Asiatic populations are settled in Northern Veleria. Tanvarika, being the northern most tip of Veleria, could function as one such local population, also perhaps in nearby countries (for instance, ethnic troubles in Fredonia have been mentioned by me in posts, perhaps the "interior" group is Arab and the coastal group is Asiatic?). I just want us to keep it reasonable.

Ideally, ethnicity and would be left to be whatever seems to suit the local story arc best (again, within reason; some of these countries -are- quite obviously Arabic (al-Istani), African (Bissauru!) or, in the case of Rangatara, apparently Indian), be it a jungle, steppe, plains roamed by mongols with tanks, etcetera.

Rangatara isn't Indian, I believe we've already established via post that they're vaguely Semitic, perhaps part-Semitic and part Malayan.

I'd like to clarify something, quickly; I'm not saying these things to be rude, I'm saying this because you are inadvertently making things difficult for others (me, right now) whilst, as you (understandably) seem to see it, developing the Dark Lands of this game as a region. Still, you should really think about making a wiki article for the undoubtably enormous wealth of information you possess on various NPCs in the game but have not actually put up anywhere. It'll certainly make it easier to keep things coherent.

An article on the wiki about the NPCs is a good idea. Anyone up for researching old posts and relaying findings (post links and such) for that?

I'm not sure how the ethnicity makes things difficult for you, though.

Lastly, I want to mention that I'm sort of developing modern-day Tanvarika as a cultural medley of caribbean developing state (haiti/dominican republic), african/south american dictatorship-masquerading-as-republic (venezuela at times, most of africa all the time), and asian coastal state (indonesia, timor), and as I'm sure you've just realized this is the reason behind my advocation of leaving things vague, so a player (m'self in this case) can create a culture without being boxed into "Persian" or "Indochinese" or whatever.

...aaaaaaand I'm done. Herr Steve, I should hope you take this as reasoned suggestion, not criticism. It was not intended in a negative manner.

Roughly-equivalence in ethnicity between Nova Terra and Earth doesn't limit your choices for how the culture works, feel free to be creative in establishing that so long as its authentic and interesting.

[Coyote]

I set Katangwaland as largely southern-African; think from Namibia-Zimbabwe-Mocambique on down to South Africa itself.

The Caravos I srated to delevop primarily as Somali-Ethiopian in general structure before I pretty much let them drif into Skimmer's orbit. He pretty much kept that flavor to them, and I will do the same.

Neither Skimmer nor myself had a hand in developing any of the other Velerian ethnic groups that I can think of off the top of my head.

I have some Asian ("Issian") population in Canissia due to ancient Japanistani and Khitanese fishing colonies that dotted my southern coast and islands hundreds of years ago, some of them were entirely temporary and held at most the status of the Vinland colonies of the Vikings in Newfoundland; although some thrived to varying degrees. Most of Canissia is made up of composites of West European groups, notable French, German, Dutch, Belgian, and Spanish. A few leftover Arabic/Egyptian influences remain from the long-ago colony of the Qualqayyid Pharaonic Dynasty from Egypt.

[PeZook]

Well, damn. I have some business to take care of in Warsaw, so I'll be gone untill Thursday evening.

Shucks, but c'est la vie.

[CmdrWilkens]

Well, damn. I have some business to take care of in Warsaw, so I'll be gone untill Thursday evening.

Shucks, but c'est la vie.

Well on the plus side it may give me a chance to recover all of my files about the Daedaulus program and finally get you that crossover astronaut/cosmonaut name.

Total aside but I think I mentioned it and the OOB page shoudl have it if the WIki doesn't but I'm retiring a bunch of Burkes and Ticos. Average ship age is 25-30 years so with a decent SLEP you could get another 15-25 years out of each and the price will be realtively low (~30% of the new build cost).

[phongn]

Selene ain't the only way to the moon (should TASC decide on a shot)

Ship stuff:

Tonkin CGNX
Tonkin DLGH-X
Tonkin FFGX
Svalbardian "Assault Cruiser"

Perry CEAFAR refit proposal
Perry APAR refit proposal

Space Stuff

LERT on a Barbarian MM + ASRM
LERT on a Barbarian MM
LERT on ASRM

Work progressing on a reusable liquid first stage is in progress (not unlike the flyback S-IC proposals)

[K. A. Pital]

Whut? Same displacement ships? Or is that 100m mark off-scale? Also, what's the thing with so many guns on destroyers and cruisers? The IRT sure seems to be fond of naval artillery.

[phongn]

Whut? Same displacement ships? Or is that 100m mark off-scale? Also, what's the thing with so many guns on destroyers and cruisers? The IRT sure seems to be fond of naval artillery.

They're semi-common hulls between the CGN and DLGH but designed for very different roles. The CGN is a dedicated fleet escort while the DLGH may be lead independent surface groups.

As for naval artillery, there are plenty of uses for them, some of which involve instant sunrise

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I think I Will stick with double barrel artillery, with rocket propelled shells and ETC technology.

[K. A. Pital]

That makes more sense to me either, two barrels conserves space and unifies the magazines in one place, making more available to be installed on the same displacement. I don't think ships with more than 1 main caliber gun have been produced lately, because that really eats up space on a ship.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Tonkin has a CGN soon to begin series production and is willing to sell.

What are the specifications?

Dude, you're in CATO. Go buy our CONTRADICTION-class nuclear cruisers.

-snip pics-

How much does a Contradiction class cost, and just how customizable is it? For instance, can I exchange the twin 150mm gun for a dual-mounted 5"/54 caliber Mark 45 or configure the VLS to launch SM-3/4s and Tomahawks in addition to S-500s and Kh-101s?

Well, if he wants a cheaper cruiser, there's the ~17000-19000 tonnes destroyer I have.

Details have been a bit scarce regarding the specifications for the Exarch, Praetor, and Consul classes. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places...

There's also the Anchar DDGN/CGN - a few new hulls could be retired under "special price" to serve for Langley if he finds them sufficient for the tasks he has:

-snip pics-

Not now of course, but as soon as at least first 2 Contradiction-class nuclear cruisers are commissioned.

Just how long will it take for the first Contradiction cruisers to enter service? I may consider buying a few Anchars if it's not feasible for me to acquire Contradictions right off the bat.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Details have been a bit scarce regarding the specifications for the Exarch, Praetor, and Consul classes. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places...

The most updated specifications are in the usergroup and I plan to upload them onto the wiki soon enough. Basically 192 cell VLS (.8m x.8m) and S-500F system. The DDGN is now consolidated under one class Praetor. Exarch is about as large as a Kirov, with 256 cell VLS, and 36 angled VLS for large cruise missiles.

As for firing the SM-2, I don't think it's entirely possible, though it would require replacing the seekers and flight control in the SM-2 with the ones on the S-500-D/E missiles.

You may like to note that the MESS and CATO are moving away from old systems, including the SM-2.

[TimothyC]

Your fighters based off such a carrier would be somewhat crippled due to the lack of a full length carrier deck, seeing as how the Charles de Gaulle tries to manage things as it is.

I know. Chances are I'll be going STOVL. The Politics have really hurt the design (Alaska isn't perfect you know).

I don't think ships with more than 1 main caliber gun have been produced lately, because that really eats up space on a ship.

CG-73 Port Royal (Launched in 92). All major surface combatants that the USN has launched since then have been Burkes.

[Ryan Thunder]

Actually, the wide open spaces weren't planned in any way. I just created a canvas, assumed a unit of measurement and started adding countries as the players did their profiles, trying to keep them at least approximately matched to the stated physical areas. Then I added Velaria because I thought there was too much empty space.

...and it turned out the map was still very, very empty

Well, why don't we just add a continent or two by act of Q?

That'd be a good way to shake things up a bit.

Just in case the OD going on a nuclear offensive in Sirnoth isn't enough to do that...

[K. A. Pital]

Chances are I'll be going STOVL.

Can be aquired El Cheapo. I think about 2x squadrons of Yak-141 STOVL have been retired with the Moskva helicarrier cruisers. Shady never got to describe what happened with them, so they're probably still not sold from the UCSR inventory...

can I exchange the twin 150mm gun for a dual-mounted 5"/54 caliber Mark 45

Caliber: 152mm (versus 127mm for the Mark45 Mod4)
ROF: 16 RPM
Max distance with ordinary shells: 40 km, with ERGM analogues: 100+ km.

So all in all, I don't see the system being anyhow inferior to the Mark45 Mod4. As for dual-barrel mounting the Mark 45, I don't think there exist such examples, in this world as well. I may be wrong, but even Tonkinese engineers don't do that.

Also, keep in mind that CATO shell production lines will make shells cheaper if we get larger order. If we don't, you'll be wasting money on buying shells from Tonkin or the MESS.

configure the VLS to launch SM-3/4s and Tomahawks in addition to S-500s and Kh-101s?

Guidance system of the S-X00 series and the SM-X series is wildly different. Also, Tomahawk has nothing on the Kh-101 - the latter has an up to 6000 km range + stealth, while the Tomahawk has only 3500 km range and if the MESS finally phase out the frame they'll have to make a new missile.

Just how long will it take for the first Contradiction cruisers to enter service?

Depends on the economic situation. So far everything is going bogie, because CATO is expanding, investment starts pouring again after the recent drydown and lockdown due to biowar. I'd say the first Contradiction hull will not be laid down before the U.C.S.R. finishes the Comrade Stanislav, putting the second carrier of the class in the sea. Then the yards will start the construction of the first Continental class and simultaneously the first Contradiction class as it's escort. Which is around 2017-2018 probably.

[Czechmate]

Guidance system of the S-X00 series and the SM-X series is wildly different. Also, Tomahawk has nothing on the Kh-101 - the latter has an up to 6000 km range + stealth, while the Tomahawk has only 3500 km range and if the MESS finally phase out the frame they'll have to make a new missile.

IIRC Tian Xia (and I think by now the MESS at large) have the A/B/R/MGM-175 Diamondback missile, a M4 multipurpose antiship/land-attack missile. Helped design it, but don't recall what the range is offhand. Also don't recall if they're phasing out Tomahawks in favor of it as yet.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I actually use 155mm, by virtue of inertia, but I maintain my own shell line to produce new shells.

As a side, I ahve already started construction of my battlecruisers. Continental class won't start construction till late 2018 probably.

[K. A. Pital]

The xGM-175 Diamondback is a fast missile, and it's range is 1200 km, kinda like our replacement missile the Kh-215. It's not a strategic land-attack weapon like the Tom, Kh-55 or Kh-101, it's a tactical missile.

As a side, I ahve already started construction of my battlecruisers.

Oh. Then perhaps you could retire your CGNs to Langley if you manage to get any done by the year 2018, because the UCSR won't be retiring the Anchars for quite a while as I see it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Oh. Then perhaps you could retire your CGNs to Langley if you manage to get any done by the year 2018, because the UCSR won't be retiring the Anchars for quite a while as I see it.

I already gave him 2 Kirovs! I have no CGNs other than the new ones now.

There are 11 CGs of the Ticonderonga class which are currently sitting in the yards awaiting either scrapping or selling. I plan to sell off 3 KDX-III destroyers per year.

[K. A. Pital]

I don't mean right now. I mean around 2018... Why does Langley need a nuclear cruiser more powerful than a SLEP-ran Kirov anyhow? Especially as our Kirovs fire Meteorite-M missiles with obscene range instead of the Granits. Langley operates nuclear carriers?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I don't mean right now. I mean around 2018...

I have roughly 5 DDGNs built over the last 4 years. 2-3 hulls laid yearly, construction length about 3 years. 2 of them are just coming out of shakedown cruises, and 2 are undergoing outfitting and slated to begin those. 3 of the new ships have S-500F. I have yet to decide what to do with the STAR ones. Convert them to S-500F? Or let them die into obsolence unless I get FMS approval to upgrade them? *shrug*

Why does Langley need a nuclear cruiser more powerful than a SLEP-ran Kirov anyhow? Especially as our Kirovs fire Meteorite-M missiles with obscene range instead of the Granits. Langley operates nuclear carriers?

1 conventional JFK type carrier.

[K. A. Pital]

Actually, we could get a hefty financial prop by selling STAR ships to MESS or their auxillaries. I wonder if there are any MESS client nations willing to accept destroyers for a good price? The financial situation in the world seems to have more or less corrected itself after the BioWar (though undoubtedly world finance is still reeling), so perhaps someone would be so willing.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Actually, we could get a hefty financial prop by selling STAR ships to MESS or their auxillaries. I wonder if there are any MESS client nations willing to accept destroyers for a good price? The financial situation in the world seems to have more or less corrected itself after the BioWar (though undoubtedly world finance is still reeling), so perhaps someone would be so willing.

That would settle the problem of having to refit them, thoguh all the ECM/ECCM and anything indigenous would be ripped out, such as the sonar system.