SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Lascaris]

Erm...not really. The Mexican army can't have destroyed more than a few km of the line before the Colombian counterattack. So you move your troops by rail there, disembark them, march them over the gap, re-embark them on trains and send them their way. It inflicts some delays but still...

Going to be a bit hard to do that with heavy equipment like artillery, tanks etc...

Artillery is mostly horse drawn in 1925 but sure, noone said it is going to be easy. And were I Colombia I would be directing troops to dealing with the Mexicans in the area on a more permanent basis as well.

[Ma Deuce]

Quick question: who controls Zanzibar? It's colour in the map suggests it is German, though I don't see it listed in any of Thanas' colonies, nor does it seem to me Kenya would have produced the spat it did if the Germans already had a colony in the region. I'd like to know before I send my battlecruiser fleet on it's planned regional goodwill tour, which is to include not only my island posessions, but several ports along the African coast as well.

I'd also appreciate knowing if anyone has any objections to my "Great White Fleet" visiting any of their ports; currently planned foreign ports include:

-Diego Garcia in the Dominion's island territories
-Port Elizabeth, South Africa
-Dar es Salaam, Tuscan Tanganyika
-Tanga, Balkan Tanganyika
-Zanzibar (whoever owns it)
-Mombasa, Kenyan Free State.
-Mogadishu, Sudanese Sultanate

If anyone has a problem with my warships visiting any of these ports, don't hesitate to say so and I will remove it from the itinerary before posting it in the story thread.

[Norseman]

So you will dare the perils of the socialist nations? But that's fine, in as much as I am the semi-official controller of Kenya I don't see a problem with your visit.

[Lonestar]

Quick question: who controls Zanzibar? It's colour in the map suggests it is German, though I don't see it listed in any of Thanas' colonies, nor does it seem to me Kenya would have produced the spat it did if the Germans already had a colony in the region. I'd like to know before I send my battlecruiser fleet on it's planned regional goodwill tour, which is to include not only my island posessions, but several ports along the African coast as well.

I'd also appreciate knowing if anyone has any objections to my "Great White Fleet" visiting any of their ports; currently planned foreign ports include:

-Diego Garcia in the Dominion's island territories
-Port Elizabeth, South Africa
-Dar es Salaam, Tuscan Tanganyika
-Tanga, Balkan Tanganyika
-Zanzibar (whoever owns it)
-Mombasa, Kenyan Free State.
-Mogadishu, Sudanese Sultanate

If anyone has a problem with my warships visiting any of these ports, don't hesitate to say so and I will remove it from the itinerary before posting it in the story thread.

Sure, you may visit Diego Garcia(Note: It's called "Saint Diego" by the Grand Dominion")

I will say it's an odd place for a "show the flag" visit, as the only people there are GDN personnel and a handful of plantations. Visiting something on the mainland, Andaman and Nicobar Islands, Ceylon, etc might be more beneficial.

[Ma Deuce]

I will say it's an odd place for a "show the flag" visit, as the only people there are GDN personnel and a handful of plantations. Visiting something on the mainland, Andaman and Nicobar Islands, Ceylon, etc might be more beneficial.

I know, it's just that it's the least out-of-the way of your territories compared to my own islands, whom this trip is primarily directed at. Then again, I am already going quite out of the way to visit South Africa, so I guess I could stop by Ceylon instead. Might also have to squeeze in a visit to Shepistan so they don't get jealous .

[CmdrWilkens]

Erm...not really. The Mexican army can't have destroyed more than a few km of the line before the Colombian counterattack. So you move your troops by rail there, disembark them, march them over the gap, re-embark them on trains and send them their way. It inflicts some delays but still...

We dropped the bridges over the river which means you need to get a full on engineering/construction team out there to rebuild it. You can;t run mainline trains over improvised tracks without having a serious risk of some of them falling in to the river(s)...unless you severely reduce speed over a temporary bridge thrown up by combat engineers. Either way the line I totally wrecked is probably a waste at least until such time as a ceasefire is arranged (after which things should become academic).

Also where do you disembark? If you are coming up from the south its rail running through jungle, rainforests, or mountains for 50mi. There is no where to disembark short of jumping off the sides of the train...and then crossing the river probably without your arty unless you jury rigged it to fire from flatcar beds. Even horse drawn artillery needs a road and there are none in this area.

If you bring them from the north, well then entraining them at Ciudad de Panama and running them down there will take a half day or so. Now at thjis point you probably have some sort of de-training facility/ramp setup in Meteti but that is 30mi to the north and even over uncontested roads you aren't gonna make more than 25mi/day with basically a corps strength advance over one road. A corps is generally estimated to have a column length of 25-30 km or roughly 15.5-18.5 mi. Along a single road the vanguard unit can definitely make that distance (which has been the average speed of advance for my units overland) but the trail units are still going to be 15mi or so away from the vanguard when the day's march ends. Now you could do the same thing as coming from the south (run the train just outside mortar range of Yaviza and hop off the side of the tracks) only reversed from the north which helps with deployment room as the terrain is more favorable but there are still have no facilities to take artillery off the train.

In other words this is gonna be an infantry vs infantry slugging match in order to effect a rapid counter-attack. One where mortars and machine guns play the largest difference (certainly for fighting in this trackless a terrain mortars are excellent though the wetness of the ground dampens that somewhat). Anyway I have requested a few clarifications and hopefully sometime this weekend we can start talking about a ceasefire line.


Now with a roll of 11 (50% possibility so average success) weight of numbers should definitely push me back but annihilation? Not gonna happen.

[Raesene]

If anyone has a problem with my warships visiting any of these ports, don't hesitate to say so and I will remove it from the itinerary before posting it in the story thread.

Dar es Salaam is German too. Tuscany has a small fleet base at Kilwa Masokoi (mostly for coast defense vessels and the odd visiting capital ship); my main overseas base is in Tasmania. You'd be welcome to visit there.

[Steve]

Don't think he's going all the way to Tasmania, and wouldn't Tuscany be better suited with a naval base at Noumea in New Caledonia?

[Ma Deuce]

Don't think he's going all the way to Tasmania

Damn straight I'm not: This is for the Western Indian ocean only (i.e., my immediate neighborhood), so the only Tuscan-owned port in that range would be Kilwa Masokoi. I have decided that I would in fact like to visit Sheppy-poo after all, but in his colony in Oman rather than his home territory. Since it's right next door, my visit to the Dominion will be in Yemen instead, which will allow me to stick close to the East African coast, saving a trip all the way to Ceylon. Accordingly I will alter my South African port of call to Maputo, Mozambique (I'm not being very subtle with this am I?). Since I'm going as far north as Oman, I'll also pay the French a visit in Djibouti and be all like "hey froggies, i know you tried to invade us and all 30 years ago, but maybe we can all just chill now, yo "

Seriously though, I'd just like final confirmation on who owns Zanzibar, because if Thanas controls both it and Dar es Salaam, then I'll be visiting one or the other, but not both.

[Steve]

Either Germany or Britain owns it. Not sure which. I think Bean initially claimed it in his widespread empire of minor islands and treaty ports.

He didn't. A search for "Zanzibar" has nobody claiming it.

Well, since Britain is an NPC currently, it would make sense for Zanzibar to be their Western Indian Ocean Port/Base. So it's British by mod ruling.

[Steve]

Mexican attempt to deal with Colombian raider force:

[02:19] sbbigsteve: I propose we do two rolls: one for if the Corps catches them before they can slip into the bush, if so we do a roll where they probably get pulverized, if not a roll for if they're engaged by infantry in the bush and the rangers get a much more favorable roll as they wage a fighting retreat to their lines.
[02:20] sbbigsteve: Now I'm not sure if either side should have an advantage on the encounter roll.
[02:21] MGillis123: Nah. Make it simple.
[02:21] sbbigsteve: //roll-dice 3-sided 6
[02:21] sbbigsteve: sbbigsteve rolled 3 6-sided dice: 3 1 1
[02:22] sbbigsteve: Ow. Five.
[02:22] sbbigsteve: The Rangers slip away.
[02:22] sbbigsteve: So any engagement would happen after the Rangers got into the bush.
[02:22] MGillis123: MGillis123 rolled 3 6-sided dice: 5 4 6
[02:22] MGillis123: They found them in the bush.
[02:23] sbbigsteve: Y'know, technically I'm the one who's supposed to be rolling....
[02:24] sbbigsteve: We really need to make sure we stop "everybody rolls" stuff y'know. Looks unprofessional in front of the RPGers (Fima).
[02:24] sbbigsteve: //roll-dice 3-sided 6
[02:24] sbbigsteve: sbbigsteve rolled 3 6-sided dice: 1 3 1
[02:24] sbbigsteve: The Rangers successfully withdraw with minimal casualties.

Air attack by Mexican forces on Colon railway:


[02:41] sbbigsteve: 72 plans on the Colon rails.
[02:42] sbbigsteve: //roll-dice 3-sided 6
[02:42] sbbigsteve: sbbigsteve rolled 3 6-sided dice: 3 3 4
[02:43] sbbigsteve: 10. Below average roll. Minimal damage. (Edit: Should be "minor damage', more accurate as 10 is a high roll for being below average).

Roll for NGFS from Mexican battleships:

[02:45] sbbigsteve: //roll-dice 3-sided 6
[02:45] sbbigsteve: sbbigsteve rolled 3 6-sided dice: 6 2 6
[02:46] MGillis123: 14
[02:46] sbbigsteve: Okay, NGFS is pretty decent with a roll of 14, above average. But his battleships have got to be low on ammo.

That's it for tonight. Fgalkin was kind enough to witness.

[Raesene]

Don't think he's going all the way to Tasmania, and wouldn't Tuscany be better suited with a naval base at Noumea in New Caledonia?

There are small bases at Jaypura (New Guinea) and Tulagi (Florida Islands/Solomons), but those are minor ones, a battle squadron might be a bit much for them. Tasmania has the infrastructure and population for a major base able to construct and support a fleet.

[Thanas]

Quick question: who controls Zanzibar?

The british would as in OTL, at least that is what I was always working under.

I'd also appreciate knowing if anyone has any objections to my "Great White Fleet" visiting any of their ports; currently planned foreign ports include:
-Dar es Salaam, Tuscan Tanganyika

The Tuscan kingdom shares the base, but it is German territory. No objections to your fleet visiting it.

[Thanas]

Okay, I am slowly getting to the soviet-manchu war and I am now going to write what I have so far.

The war started on May 10, 1925. That means D+45 would be July 1st, correct?

Beowulf kindly provided me with this map of his forces.

Army Xiyi:
6 Chinese Inf Corps
Reserves:
3 Chinese Inf Corps
1 Manchu Inf Corps
3 Chinese Cav Div
took 12k casualties in D40-D45 fighting

I am assuming that each division has ~15000 troops, if this is incorrect, I would ask Beowulf and Bluewolf to please post the correct exact number of their troops. Please do not do something like "You can find the exact composition here [link]", especially since there seems to be some confusion as to what exactly constitutes a bataillon, a brigades etc. Working through the Russian OOB with its confusing unequal numbers of regimental strength is hard enough.

So I shall assume the following:


Army Xiyi:
6 Chinese Inf Corps = 270.000
Reserves:
3 Chinese Inf Corps = 135.000
1 Manchu Inf Corps = 45.000
3 Chinese Cav Div = 45.000
took 12k casualties in D40-D45 fighting[/quote]
So total strength here:
483.000 men

Army Xiyat:
8 Chinese Inf Corps = 360.000
6 Manchu Inf Corps = 270.000
Reserves:
4 Chinese Inf Corps = 180.000
1 Manchu Inf Corps = 45.000
2 Manchu Reinforced Corps= 90.000 ?
took 18k casualties in D40-D45 fighting

Total strength: 927.000 men

Interfront:
4 Manchu Inf Corps = 180.000
Reserves:
3 Manchu Second Class Inf Corps = 135.000 men

Total strength: 315.000 men

Army Beiyat:
5 Manchu Infantry Corps = 225.000
Reserves:
1 Manchu Infantry Corps = 45.000
1 Manchu Reinforced Corps = 45.000?
took 21k casualties in D40-D45 fighting
Losses made up from missing Corps troops + spare division

315.000 men

Army Beiyi:
4 Manchu Infantry Corps = 180.000
Reserves:
1 Manchu Infantry Corps = 45.000
1 Manchu Reinforced Corps = 45.000
took 14k casualties in D40-D45 fighting
Losses made up from missing Corps troops + spare division in Army Beiyat

= 270.000 men

Northern Forces:
3 Manchu Mountain Inf Div = 45.000
Reserves:
1 Manchu Inf Corps = 45.000

Total strength = 90.000

Troop movement in 4 days since conclusion of attack:
Chinese corps from Beiyat moved to Xiyat.
Remains of Manchu Inf Corps from replacement of losses moved to Xiyat
Chinese corps added to Xiyi from China

Coming troop movements:
Grand Dominion troops filter into Army Xiyat's Control (completion at D+51)
Movement of 1 Corps from Beiyat and Beiyi into interfront area (completion at D+55)
Movement of 1 Corps from reserves into Army Xiyat (completion at D+54)
Movement of Chinese Corps from China at rate of 1 per 3 days (completion at D+64)

Total combined strength of Chinese/Manchu so far: 2,4 Million men
Total Chinese forces in theater: 810.000 troops.

That is right, troops from china apparentyl make up a whole third of Manchu forces. And somehow they managed to move, deploy and get them ready for fighting within one month and a half. And the chinese are still sending one corps every 3 days.

So how many troops total will china dedicate to this war? Because so far they comprise one third of the whole force.

I'll also not argue the logistic messup such an influx of so many troops not trained to interact with each other will cause. Stas already tried that, but apparently the mods feel that it is no problem. Instead, I shall simply assume the soviets too have huge railroads in those regions and can supply and move troops quite fast as well.

Assuming the mods okay this interpretation of mine regarding manchu strength, I shall then proceed to write what the soviets did regarding troop movements etc. in the 49 days.

[Steve]

Don't think he's going all the way to Tasmania, and wouldn't Tuscany be better suited with a naval base at Noumea in New Caledonia?

There are small bases at Jaypura (New Guinea) and Tulagi (Florida Islands/Solomons), but those are minor ones, a battle squadron might be a bit much for them. Tasmania has the infrastructure and population for a major base able to construct and support a fleet.

He's not going into the South Pacific however, so this is entirely academic.

[Thanas]

Also, a quick note - the Dutch ships scheduled to be scrapped will instead be sold to the Brazillians.

[Norseman]

Also, a quick note - the Dutch ships scheduled to be scrapped will instead be sold to the Brazillians.

*whistles innocently*

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, Thanas, Byzantium and the Balkan Confederacy quietly donated several locomotives for free..... for an undisclosed number as well.

[Thanas]

I do have to question the total of chinese troops committed to the fighting. As per the Orbat thread, total divisions to manchuria are 18 divisions, which would mean 6 corps max.

However, according to Beowulf's statement of forces, there are already 22 Corps of chinese soldiers in theater.

So I have to wonder which is the correct number. According to beowulf, 66 divisions of the chinese are already in theater. According to the Orbat, it is 18.

If the latter is correct, I would ask the mods to readjust the results of the attacks on both salients accordingly, because there is no way the attacks would develop the same considering the sheer number of troops missing from the attack.

[loomer]

Afghanistan dabbles in biological warfare! Oh the fun that will be had when it all goes so horrifyingly wrong!

For those not particularly well versed in the matter, Tularemia is one of the better bio-agents for a 'beginning' project. It's an easily aerosolized bacteria with high infection rates, modest mortality, but is also exceptionally incapacitating. It was also used by the Soviet Union against Germany in the Great Patriotic War in real history, if you believe Kenneth Alibek.

The only downside is that, when you're going with primitive infection methods, the high rates can backfire, and it's easy to disinfect.

[Beowulf]

I am assuming that each division has ~15000 troops, if this is incorrect, I would ask Beowulf and Bluewolf to please post the correct exact number of their troops.

A Manchu infantry division is approximately 15000 troops. A Manchu Cavalry division is approximately half the size, at 7500 troops. You apparently managed to miss the entire argument on division size WRT to the Chinese forces. They are 20000 man divisions, organized into 2 division corps. There are also additional attachments at Corps level, which result in a Manchu Inf Corps being some 50k troops, and a Chinese one being about 45k (this is stuff like corps artillery brigades, armor regiments for reinforced corps, et al). I'm not sure about the size of a Chinese Cav Div, precisely, though I've been pegging them at 10k men, as they were historically smaller units. The size of the Chinese Infantry Division is also supported in the Chinese OOB.

Army Xiyi:
6 Chinese Inf Corps = 270.000
Reserves:
3 Chinese Inf Corps = 135.000
1 Manchu Inf Corps = 50.000
3 Chinese Cav Div = 30.000
took 12k casualties in D40-D45 fighting

So total strength here:
473.000 men

Army Xiyat:
8 Chinese Inf Corps = 360.000
6 Manchu Inf Corps = 300.000
Reserves:
4 Chinese Inf Corps = 180.000
1 Manchu Inf Corps = 50.000
2 Manchu Reinforced Corps= 110.000
took 18k casualties in D40-D45 fighting

Total strength: 982.000 men

Interfront:
4 Manchu Inf Corps = 200.000
Reserves:
3 Manchu Second Class Inf Corps = 150.000 men

Total strength: 350.000 men

Army Beiyat:
5 Manchu Infantry Corps = 250.000
Reserves:
1 Manchu Infantry Corps = 50.000
1 Manchu Reinforced Corps = 55.000
took 21k casualties in D40-D45 fighting
Losses made up from missing Corps troops + spare division

355.000 men

Army Beiyi:
4 Manchu Infantry Corps = 200.000
Reserves:
1 Manchu Infantry Corps = 50.000
1 Manchu Reinforced Corps = 55.000
took 14k casualties in D40-D45 fighting
Losses made up from missing Corps troops + spare division in Army Beiyat

= 305.000 men

Northern Forces:
3 Manchu Mountain Inf Div = 45.000
Reserves:
1 Manchu Inf Corps = 50.000

Total strength = 95.000

Troop movement in 4 days since conclusion of attack:
Chinese corps from Beiyat moved to Xiyat.
Remains of Manchu Inf Corps from replacement of losses moved to Xiyat
Chinese corps added to Xiyi from China

Coming troop movements:
Grand Dominion troops filter into Army Xiyat's Control (completion at D+51)
Movement of 1 Corps from Beiyat and Beiyi into interfront area (completion at D+55)
Movement of 1 Corps from reserves into Army Xiyat (completion at D+54)
Movement of Chinese Corps from China at rate of 1 per 3 days (completion at D+64)

Total combined strength of Chinese/Manchu so far: 2.89 Million men
Total Chinese forces in theater: 1,275,000 troops.

That is right, troops from china apparentyl make up a whole third of Manchu forces. And somehow they managed to move, deploy and get them ready for fighting within one month and a half. And the chinese are still sending one corps every 3 days.

So how many troops total will china dedicate to this war? Because so far they comprise one third of the whole force.

I'll also not argue the logistic messup such an influx of so many troops not trained to interact with each other will cause. Stas already tried that, but apparently the mods feel that it is no problem. Instead, I shall simply assume the soviets too have huge railroads in those regions and can supply and move troops quite fast as well.

Assuming the mods okay this interpretation of mine regarding manchu strength, I shall then proceed to write what the soviets did regarding troop movements etc. in the 49 days.

I've recieved a commitment from Bluewolf of 52 chinese divisions of various types, of which, I've taken control of 39. The 18 divisions listed in the OOB represent the number in theater at that particular time. This should not be surprising, given that it's a matter of record that the Kingdom of Manchuria has a tributary arrangement with China (fun note, that's exactly why my nation is a Kingdom!), and that the Emperor would lose tremendous amounts of face if the Soviet assault succeeded despite his support of the Manchus. The tributary status would also explain why Chinese and Manchu soldiers would be used to operating together. Despite that, I'm deliberately segregating the two nation's units so that they will generally be fighting next to their countrymen.

The Chinese have managed to move as many men as they have, and supply them, by monopolizing the line that runs to Hailar from the south, which was constructed in order to support trade with the rather well industrialized Mongol state. This has naturally meant that trade with Mongolia has massively reduced in quantity, but such is war. The Manchu Kingdom is a 5 infrastructure state, which means it should have electrification of significant portions of the country, a developed water system, extensive telegraph (and a burgeoning telephone) network, and an extensive rail network. It is also significantly smaller than the Soviet Union, allowing it to have denser infrastructure than the Soviet Union for the same value. The Soviet Union has a 3 infrastructure rating. It has the Trans-Siberian Railroad to get any forces from the west to the east. It's maybe a days travel to the front from my capital. It's 3 days travel for any Soviet unit to go from Moscow to the front.

[Steve]

Upon appeal by Ryan Thunder w/ Lascaris advocating, the rate of reinforcement by which Wilkens would put three more divisions into his northern beachhead was ruled unrealistic and was forbidden. In light of this, Wilkens retracted the entire northern operation and this was approved. There have been no landings in the north; all battles and rolls relating to that operation have been rendered null and void. Rolls for proposed Colombian sub patrols against the Mexican battle line will be undertaken as soon as circumstances, orders, and positions are confirmed.

[Steve]

In case I've not made it clear, Q4 1925 began Saturday. The time freeze is over. Thanas and Beo can work to bring that war up to speed or, alternatively, can do us all a favor and, since it's still 2 months behind, have a ceasefire signed.

New Timeline.

[Norseman]

My problem of course is that my main concern right now is... guess what? The Colombian / MExican War, for which I'm writing a series of posts. Everything I do afterwards depend so much on the outcome of that one.

[loomer]

And Afghanistan takes the first step towards a homegrown women's liberation and secularist movement. I did say to be on the look out for some radical social divergences, didn't I?