SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK II

[Mr Bean]

Mr. Bean, when did you procure dedicated replenishment ships? Because converted/charted oilers are not "good refueling ships". Unless they are dropping anchor somewhere and you're coming along side to be gassed up that way(and you'd need to have a tug push you into place for the duration).

Let me make this clear to you


They are not dedicated underway replenishment ships, they are tankers that have been converted to refuel ships, but not in any way shape or form "underway"

That is why they are "replenishment ships" not "Underway replenishment ships"

This is the THIRD time we've been through this Q and A about this subject.

[RogueIce]

So yeah, I'm not happy about ProTec conducting raids. I just let him know about that.

Legally speaking, they're a private venture. So, like the RT pilgrims our options are relatively limited. But I've basically told them he needs to keep a tight leash on them, and that raids such as the one he conducted jeopardize international efforts to provide aid to Libertia.

Hopefully, the President of ProTec will take the hint that this would be a Very Bad Thing and would greatly annoy the international community.

And I hope my objection to the Shroomian mercenary aces is a bit clearer now. As I said to ProTec, tactical jet aircraft would represent a huge force disparity to the rivals of those on the other side. And given that, so far as we know, none of the warlords really has anything to match, there's not much use for them in a CAP role. Which leaves only one other real use for them: strike.

Needless to say, that would not help matters any.

[The Yosemite Bear]

actually that was when they were world leaders in scientific thought. They found the one redeeming thing that seperated the Vikings from the rest of Europe's Barbarian Trash, was that the Vikings were actually well groomed, and clean. (they bathed every day)

[Shroom Man 777]

Goddamn... Vikings?!

[The Yosemite Bear]

wait till you start running into Hubbologists, which I'm damn suprised that shep didn't pick up on that one.

or anyone else for that matter. When the Land Owners Association, is 1/3 Hubbologist, and they tend to be quite manipulative.

you know I never did mention the corperations within the Bear Republic

ok here's the break down

Hughes/Kaiser (also HK, Hughes+Kaiser, or Hughes & Kaiser): When and Aircraft magnate, and a Shipping/construction Magnate formed a partnership to build super heavy cargo aircraft, they ran into lots of difficulty. Including extortion, threats, no one willing to supply their workers with medical attention, housing problems etc. They solved it by buying their own ranches, hospitals, land etc. Largest Airship manufacture, Third largest shipping manufacturer, Largest Health provider, hell the main question is what aren't they in.

Republic Viking Shipping: Until recently the 2nd largest shipping company, however with the damage to pirate's bay the question is rather debateable. Currently on the verge of collapse, they recently were involved with trading with pirates.

Greater Repulican Shipping: actually owned by the "Land Owner's association, largest shipping company, and they have compelte control of the North Fort Bay facility.

The Land Owner's Assocation: currently control the majority of the farms, ranches, housing, private security and emergency services, brewing, film production, etc. Basically 19th Century Robber Barons that never got broken up, hate unions, and are quite ruthless.

People's Power Services: The Largest water and power company not owned by the Land Owners Association. Unfortunatly, it's a front for an anarchist group....

Republic Security Consultants: goon squad for hire.

[Lonestar]

Let me make this clear to you


They are not dedicated underway replenishment ships, they are tankers that have been converted to refuel ships, but not in any way shape or form "underway"

That is why they are "replenishment ships" not "Underway replenishment ships"

This is the THIRD time we've been through this Q and A about this subject.

Bean, you said "3 good refueling ships". Since they are not dedicated UNREP ships, your task force can almost certainly not "steam around as long as there is fuel in their bunkers". At best they have to find some shallows, drop anchor, and pray for calm seas while they refuel(since you don't have any tugs to bring ships alongside and keep the fueling vessels stable). The alternative if to find a harbor somewhere, in which case it the trail of refueling ships would be superfluous.

And I'm going to KEEP this Q & A up everytime you claim you can perform a full spread of naval capabilities...when you can't. Bottom line:You are seriously hindered and no amopunt of "uh, well, they aren't UNREP ships but that won't us from steaming around non stop" won't change it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Can't we just agree that Zor's magic "poof, you've got these military assets" OP also includes the support structure for these military assets?

[Mr Bean]

Bean, you said "3 good refueling ships". Since they are not dedicated UNREP ships, your task force can almost certainly not "steam around as long as there is fuel in their bunkers". At best they have to find some shallows, drop anchor, and pray for calm seas while they refuel(since you don't have any tugs to bring ships alongside and keep the fueling vessels stable). The alternative if to find a harbor somewhere, in which case it the trail of refueling ships would be superfluous.

And I'm going to KEEP this Q & A up everytime you claim you can perform a full spread of naval capabilities...when you can't. Bottom line:You are seriously hindered and no amopunt of "uh, well, they aren't UNREP ships but that won't us from steaming around non stop" won't change it.

Lonestar again I specified my "replenishment ships" need a PORT to be useful, look back I've said that twice now. Why do you keep assigning abilities to ships I am not?

[Setzer]

Has anyone seen Shep's military designer spreadsheet? IIRC, he said it was intended for new worlds. I think it would make a nice way to track our nation's expenses, as well as track their growth from year to year.

[K. A. Pital]

A little explanation guys

Archierei - higher Orthodox clergy, equivalent to Episcope (Bishop). Each Archierei controls a Eparchy - Regional Church. Plural: archiere-i, singular archie-rey

Ierei - junior Orthodox clergy, same singular/plural rules

Patriarch: his title may or may not include the "Archiepiscope" and "His Holiness" is generally used when referring to him

[Lonestar]

Lonestar again I specified my "replenishment ships" need a PORT to be useful, look back I've said that twice now. Why do you keep assigning abilities to ships I am not?

I'm not the one who said that your warships could "steam around as long as there is fuel in their[refueling ships] bunkers", you were. You've already assigned them abilities they can't fulfill.

Since they need to go into port, that's a day(maybe two) every week or so that's wasted as the taskforce refuels. Certainly not a "steam around" scenario.

[Mr Bean]

Since they need to go into port, that's a day(maybe two) every week or so that's wasted as the taskforce refuels. Certainly not a "steam around" scenario.

Better than knowing Lonestar, and as I stated origional and which you keep ignoring, calling that Replenishment ships was cover for the fact the true purpose of those ships is simple

THEY ARE DECOYS!, Lures! Tempting targets for pirates!

Not the new back-bone of UKB replenishment ships.

Get off it Lonestar

[Lonestar]

Edited because I've had entirely too little sleep.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, at least we know he's not crazy. Hates Alexander, but he's not crazy.

His main priority seems to be security of his people. Same as Alexander's.

This means the "Funnel aid but threaten to withdraw it if they start a war" option actually has a reasonable chance of success. We just need to convince the Sultan to join in on that...

Yeah. Small obstacle, right?

Considering the tight leash I just placed on him, he'd better not be crazy.

[Raj Ahten]

If you all are done hanging ProTec for its actions, maybe you should just go ahead and criticize everyone who's intervened in Libertopia. Such as the LoneStar Republic which raided Migindishu, oh and that city was still burning last time I checked. I wouldn't have had to bomb the pirates or give Alexander anything if anyone else in the international community had botherer to do anything about the pirate bases. I presented evidence to all the world's spymasters who would listen, and everyone did exactly nothing. Last time I checked everyone was still at war with pirates. Sinking them at sea will do nothing while their bases go unmolested. It's also not like ProTec has carrier battle groups so they can quickly strike pirates and withdraw. I have to entangle myself in Libertopian politics in order to get aircraft in range, as well as simply getting the information on where the pirates were.

Also, I doubt the Red Technocracy would be threatening war if any of their citizens get killed in Libertopia if it were a member of the MESS conducting the raids (such as the ones in Migindishu.) Libertopia is an area with no laws and your citizens put themselves in great danger whenever they go there. I suppose if some of them are killed by bandits you would invade and kill every bandit in the area. As I have said though I am endevouring to be as carefull as possible when it comes to the citizens of the Red Technocracy, as I am always very carefull about ProTec's impact on civillians.

And to all those who say ProTec is responsible for the Crisis in Libertopia, All I have to say is you can look in the mirror for its creator. The international communiy has completely ignored Libertopia for years, even as its rulers have begged for aid. The only time great powers got involved was to kill those that offended them. I don't have that option. ProTec has to make friends with some one to acomplish its goals in the region, which have been and remain the supression of piracy.

[K. A. Pital]

I doubt the Red Technocracy would be threatening war if any of their citizens get killed in Libertopia if it were a member of the MESS conducting the raids

Um, let's make it clear: if any of our citizens get killed, that's a casus belli. If any Libertians are killed, that's nothing, at least for us as a state, though it may concern some parties.

I suppose if some of them are killed by bandits you would invade and kill every bandit in the area.

Well, if Ramsley cannot give my citizens adequate security, if they die, I can launch an extortion operation and hold him accountable. And bandits will be searched after and ruthlessly hunted down by my intelligence.

But this was not mere street banditry but an armed raid, and moreover, a lot of Libertian Slavic civilians died.

I'm dormant as a state, but Ramsley and the volunteers are already taking intel on who did it, the regional ProTec commander and so on. They are not the MOSSAD when it comes to that, but they will try.

Also the idea of ProTec supressing piracy as a goal sounds as cover up, it's a private corporation and can't just run military deeds out of goodwill. THey need to make profit.

So the operations against Ramsley were paid in cold hard cash by Alexander, and you made a profit off the "noble" bombing of "bases" which led to an entire quartal consumed by fire.

As for Migidishu raid, we currently have no one who'd side with Ibrahim and/or RP him adequately, and Skimmer is laying low (he probably doesn't know his libertian underling was attacked by Lonestar).

[Raj Ahten]

The profit from the anti piracy comes from the insurance and shipping cxompanies I have contracts with. The teaming up with Alexander was done for payment, yes, but also reluctantly. My men would prefer not to train deathsquads themselves and are keeping a close eye on Alexanders men. alexander's payment options are also limited.

Also all this mess could have been avoided if other states had objected to ProTec's planned actions when they let the word's inteligence agencies know about them at the World Conference.

As far as terrorist style or other retaliation goes, my men in Libertopia are quite familiar with such threats and can deal with them an needed. (Though what happens elsewhere is another story. Believe me, there will be blowback from these operations, and I as a player have been planning out what it will be for a long time.)

Edit: Things could get vey ugly in Libertopia soon, even with out warfare. Terrorists and paramilitaries hunting each other with civillians getting in the way, anyone?

[PeZook]

Also all this mess could have been avoided if other states had objected to ProTec's planned actions when they let the word's inteligence agencies know about them at the World Conference.

How about the fact PeZookia did object to the plan?

And no, we didn't proceed to ignore the problem. Or did you miss the hundred odd patrol ships which were scouring the Central Sea for months now?

Bombing "pirate bases" achieves little, in the long run, unless you can completely obliterate them. The pirates will just acquire more ships and continue on, while civilians proceed to hate you (and, by extension, us) so very, very much.

[MKSheppard]

Nuclear proliferation is fun

[Raj Ahten]

How about the fact PeZookia did object to the plan?

One nation objecting did not equal a consensus. You did't threaten any punitive measures or anything of the like and it was criticism I could live with. Besides Pezookia isn't the nation threatening me with destruction should their citizens, who put themselves in danger, get killed in a war zone. By ignoring the problem I mean ignoring the problem of Libertopia. No meaningfull actions were taken to stabilize the area or engage the warlords until just recently. Basically the international community didn't seem to give a shit about what happened down there in Libertopia, unless it directly affected a nation's national security. I took a strike at the pirate bases because plenty of other people have struck at targets in Libertopia before, with the official reaction of the world's governments seeming to be a shrug of the shoulders.

So if bombing doesn't work, how do you intend to stop the piracy? Those patrols in the Central Sea aren't sustainable, and the smart pirates will just move on to less defended waters.

I also have a question for Stas Bush. Do you intend to anihilate me if your citizens, in the act of attacking ProTec employee's, are killed? I assume they still have the right of self defense. It's not like I can check someone's nationality in the middle of a firefight.

[PeZook]

One nation objecting did not equal a consensus. You did't threaten any punitive measures or anything of the like and it was criticism I could live with.

Well, that's too bad, but PeZookia is an influential nation in the FUN.

Besides Pezookia isn't the nation threatening me with destruction should their citizens, who put themselves in danger, get killed in a war zone.

By ignoring the problem I mean ignoring the problem of Libertopia. No meaningfull actions were taken to stabilize the area or engage the warlords until just recently.

It's really too bad that we don't want to bomb everyone we don't like ; No "meaningful action" was taken because no possible recourse was seen - at least not one which would require us occupying the place by force. Also, we didn't want to kill innocents in the process (After all, the OMSK could've Arc-Lighted the place)

Basically the international community didn't seem to give a shit about what happened down there in Libertopia, unless it directly affected a nation's national security. I took a strike at the pirate bases because plenty of other people have struck at targets in Libertopia before, with the official reaction of the world's governments seeming to be a shrug of the shoulders.

"Plenty" means two. Shinra, who rescued hostages and trashed military targets in the Sultan's tettiorry, and Lonestar who caused more collateral damage by necessity.

So if bombing doesn't work, how do you intend to stop the piracy? Those patrols in the Central Sea aren't sustainable, and the smart pirates will just move on to less defended waters.

1) Arming merchant ships. All newly built FCS are armed well enough to defeat most pirates (except for frigates and the like)

2) Strong coast guards. In progress.

3) Open-seas patrols and destruction of bases by limited action (See Vanaheim Hammertime), rather than airstrikes.

Some sort of a long-term solution is currently being discussed. In fact, it was being discussed all the time when ProTec decided to go ahead with the airstrikes. Hell, Ramsley was negotiating with the OMSK all that time.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

One nation objecting did not equal a consensus. You did't threaten any punitive measures or anything of the like and it was criticism I could live with. Besides Pezookia isn't the nation threatening me with destruction should their citizens, who put themselves in danger, get killed in a war zone. By ignoring the problem I mean ignoring the problem of Libertopia. No meaningfull actions were taken to stabilize the area or engage the warlords until just recently. Basically the international community didn't seem to give a shit about what happened down there in Libertopia, unless it directly affected a nation's national security. I took a strike at the pirate bases because plenty of other people have struck at targets in Libertopia before, with the official reaction of the world's governments seeming to be a shrug of the shoulders.

How does "not giving a swat" gives you free leverage to back a warlord down there and offer him the use of your advanced equipment? We haven't had time to pay attention to issues there what with all the bickering over nuclear bombs and various diplomatic spats that occurred until the warlords started sending fillers asking for help.

So if bombing doesn't work, how do you intend to stop the piracy? Those patrols in the Central Sea aren't sustainable, and the smart pirates will just move on to less defended waters.

My shipping company as it is arms its freighters and Byzantine Coast Guard marines are on board them providing defence. I have been extensively patrolling the region and destroying any pirate ship or base it encounters.

I also have a question for Stas Bush. Do you intend to anihilate me if your citizens, in the act of attacking ProTec employee's, are killed? I assume they still have the right of self defense. It's not like I can check someone's nationality in the middle of a firefight.

Do you even have proof that it was Red Technocracy citizens who carried out the attack? Last I checked it was an attack ordered by Ramsley in retaliation for the bombings of his ports, which is fairly justifiable.

[Raj Ahten]

Do you even have proof that it was Red Technocracy citizens who carried out the attack? Last I checked it was an attack ordered by Ramsley in retaliation for the bombings of his ports, which is fairly justifiable.

I'm not accusing him of anything, and ProTec hasn't found any evidence. But given how ProTec's people are quite competent, they may very well find that his citizens had something to do with it. (Stas did pretty much say they were going to take action.) This is more of player to player question here, but ProTec is asking in game as well, as they need specifics on Stas Bush's warning.

On to the backing of warlord's issue. It could be a solution to the libertopian problem. An ugly one, but there it is. By being in his corner, I also have a beter chance of influencing the Iron General as a friend.

Personally I've been surpised and cought off guard by the international reaction over ProTec's actions. I tested the waters by informing people of my intentions, and the most negative response I got was a general condemnation from Pezookia. Now it's a complete shit storm,despite my efforts to gauge opinion.

Every major action by ProTec seems to lead to the next crisis, first the crackdown on piracy, now extreme scrutiny of Libertopia .

[PeZook]

On to the backing of warlord's issue. It could be a solution to the libertopian problem. An ugly one, but there it is. By being in his corner, I also have a beter chance of influencing the Iron General as a friend.

Personally I've been surpised and cought off guard by the international reaction over ProTec's actions. I tested the waters by informing people of my intentions, and the most negative response I got was a general condemnation from Pezookia. Now it's a complete shit storm,despite my efforts to gauge opinion.

Every major action by ProTec seems to lead to the next crisis, first the crackdown on piracy, now extreme scrutiny of Libertopia .

Well, while you've been preparing the airstrikes, the situation did change quite a bit, with warlords going in for help and all. So you can see why the attacks upset the situation quite a bit more than they would normally.

[Raj Ahten]

On to the backing of warlord's issue. It could be a solution to the libertopian problem. An ugly one, but there it is. By being in his corner, I also have a beter chance of influencing the Iron General as a friend.

Personally I've been surpised and cought off guard by the international reaction over ProTec's actions. I tested the waters by informing people of my intentions, and the most negative response I got was a general condemnation from Pezookia. Now it's a complete shit storm,despite my efforts to gauge opinion.

Every major action by ProTec seems to lead to the next crisis, first the crackdown on piracy, now extreme scrutiny of Libertopia .

Well, while you've been preparing the airstrikes, the situation did change quite a bit, with warlords going in for help and all. So you can see why the attacks upset the situation quite a bit more than they would normally.

I thought I could get them in before a decision was made, especially after LoneStar's strikes in the North drawing very little ire. Turns out I was wrong.

Edit: BTW, ProTec's goals for the assistance program with the Iron General have been to pay him back for his assistance with the pirate intel, keep an eye on his troops, and get back to the small Bodyguard detail contract ASAP, all while keeping the Iron General friendly towards ProTec.