SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[Beowulf]

- I'm wondering aside from Beo's interests in the F-ing (note that the F-ing Neutrality Pact was binding on him which means that YES the apparent attempt by Baerne to invade and re-organize the poltiics of Costa affects him) you'll note no interference in those nations. Hell I sold Seige equipment for his NFT Coast Guard, I have sold new and surplus equipment before as have Rogue and Coyote. The idea that "The MESS" is some bullying power comes about because everyone has gotten their panties in a twist over Beo asserting himself where he has a treaty right to assert himself.

Um, Beo explicitly stated that Tian Xia did not sign the Frequesue Neutrality Pact and did not consider itself beholden to it.

Although true, it is also the considered opinion that because the FNP did not include a mechanism for withdrawal, all countries that had previously signed it (or their successor governments) will continue to be beholden to it. The only legal method to revoke it would be to create another treaty that modifies the FNP, signed and ratified by all parties that signed the FNP.

[PeZook]

Although true, it is also the considered opinion that because the FNP did not include a mechanism for withdrawal, all countries that had previously signed it (or their successor governments) will continue to be beholden to it. The only legal method to revoke it would be to create another treaty that modifies the FNP, signed and ratified by all parties that signed the FNP.

Or pass a parliamentary bill stating you withdraw from the pact. A sovereign state has the right to withdraw from any treaty which doesn't specify a particular method by simply stating it decided to do so.

[Beowulf]

Although true, it is also the considered opinion that because the FNP did not include a mechanism for withdrawal, all countries that had previously signed it (or their successor governments) will continue to be beholden to it. The only legal method to revoke it would be to create another treaty that modifies the FNP, signed and ratified by all parties that signed the FNP.

Or pass a parliamentary bill stating you withdraw from the pact. A sovereign state has the right to withdraw from any treaty which doesn't specify a particular method by simply stating it decided to do so.

Depends on the treaty. A treaty such as this is effectively toothless if a country could just declare themselves no longer beholden to it. There's a number of treaties such that it's impossible to withdraw from them.

There's a reason why the Port Nike Accords include a specified method of withdrawal.

[Zwinmar]

Edit: trying to figure out location for Kingdom of Caleigh, going to put in in the island chain north of Veleria

[PeZook]

Depends on the treaty. A treaty such as this is effectively toothless if a country could just declare themselves no longer beholden to it. There's a number of treaties such that it's impossible to withdraw from them.

Yes it is, which is why most treaties contain stipulations for withdrawal, and some just plain declare "No withdrawals, ever!"

Though we never really write the treaties we sign IC. That would be kinda crazy

[Beowulf]

Yes it is, which is why most treaties contain stipulations for withdrawal, and some just plain declare "No withdrawals, ever!"

Though we never really write the treaties we sign IC. That would be kinda crazy

http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/Port_Nike_Accords

Also, the FNP was written out as well. I don't have a handy link, but it failed to mention withdrawals whatsoever.

[PeZook]

http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/Port_Nike_Accords

Also, the FNP was written out as well. I don't have a handy link, but it failed to mention withdrawals whatsoever.

Well, that's kind of a small treaty

As for the FNP...That's their fault, isn't it?

[K. A. Pital]

*head explodes* *wipes off tears*
Yes, that's exactly the level of understanding I would expect.

P.S. I hope the problem with the FTO neutrality pact is resolved, right? Beowulf was never a signatory so he wasn't obliged to do shit. He interfered of his own will. He had no "right" neither any "obligation" to uphold the pact, much less make others "follow" it which is just ridiculous and none of his business.

P.P.S. Wilkens, do you really think the OD has any interests in F-ing? It has none. It shouldn't be there, period. Unless of course you would now say that the Vineyards being a MESS satellite suddenly justify all of you banging up on CATO members in the North of F-ing.

P.P.P.S. If any of you MESS heads (don't hold that as derogatory, that's "heads of MESS nations" shortened ) want to press the point about Stanislav ordering additional strikes into Shepistan, go public with it. Try to press me for being extradicted into one of your Empires for trial.

Oh wait, that has as much of a chance happening as the sky falling. And even if you do, I'll just strike your continent out of my travel schedule forever. It's a worthless clone of America filled with imperialists anyway

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Ya know here's a funn thing. Everyone here has latched on to the first half of my previous post "Ohh Wilkens you don't know what your talking about." Did any of you even fucking bother with the second half? Do ya'll just want to bitch about the evil MESS or do you want to actually try a bit of dialouge? So far the responses to my two questions have been:

Fin: Ignore by way of saying he is tired of the game
Seige: Ignore
Shroom: Ignore
Shady: Ignore

So yeah I ask the quesiton of what do you want and my response is freakin crickets chirping.

Oh no, I didn't just say ignore.

I said, I'm not even interested in any damn treaties. Go wave it in front of my face. I have zero faith in your credibility, that's all. I won't even sign one, neither will I back one. Go cry me a river. And if I don't back one, no one in CATO would. Have fun. If you screech too loudly, I would just tell your embassies to scoot off and I will do the Shep way and bulldoze the embassies and fill them with concrete.

[RogueIce]

Wheee, many things!

First of all, I'll take the "MESS silence" issue, because that ties into my many things opening. The reason being, of course, that I haven't been able to log on and post in here for awhile. As an example, I'll go back to the conference. When I left one day, we had just done some opening remarks. Nothing major. Then by the time I logged on again, the argument had happened and Steve had already called a recess. Thus President Shinra "sat by" during the whole thing, but that's because the player RogueIce wasn't even online for what happened. So all I could do about that was track down Berman and tell him to quit being such an asshole. For another example closer to now, the reason it took me so long to follow up on the conversation me and PeZook had (and the agreement therein) was because some relatively major RL stuff happened to me. I don't want to go into details, but suffice to say that for the time thereafter I wasn't really interested in messing around online period, much less playing this game. I think we'll all agree that, in the end, real life trumps STGODs.

It's something I've gone into before, but please don't take lack of action by players to mean that we're just sitting on the sidelines and don't care. Things happen, and even if I happen to be online, it doesn't mean I'm hurridly clicking on to SDN to see the latest in this game. If there's a game I'll do that for it'll be the Star Wars one, because I'm one of the mods and thus have a responsibility. And I know I'm not unique in this: Shroom has said he's generally busy and he hasn't made an IC post that I've seen: does that mean Shroomania is sitting around and ignoring what's been going on? Same for Canissia, Serenity, Zoria, etc?

Honestly, if you want a Shinra Republic reaction that bad, you can PM me. If nothing else I'll respond to it and you'll at least have an OOC indication of what I'm feeling, and we can probably work out something acceptable for you to RP me with in the event I don't have the energy or am in the mood to make an IC post. Because sometimes it happens. There are times I want to make a post but I simply can't think of anything to say. Other times I'll say "well it'll hold until tomorrow" because I'm tired or something, and then it won't because things have progressed.

While we're not trying to piss each other off OOC, let's keep in mind that, in the end, we're human players and we don't have a compulsory order to play this game. It doesn't mean our nations sit there doing nothing IC, though it can have the effect of making it look like it. It sucks, yes, but I don't really know of any way to fix that. Because really, if this game becomes more of an obligation than a game, who'd want to keep on playing it?

---

Next up, the bomber thing. Honestly, that is not really a huge concern of the Shinra Republic, beyond it being a catalyst for the current tensions. So far as we're concerned, it was a tragic accident that shouldn't have happened, but did. And it wasn't really worth all this. But since it did and this resulted we have to deal with it.

One idea I had batting around my head last night was that there could be some review done into it. Given the circumstances, some kind of review board or whatever is not entirely unreasonable: a NFT frigate shot down an OD bomber, and naturally some type of official review would take place on both sides. That should, in theory, be general practice. So either the NFT and OD can do a review, there could be an outside review (say me, PeZook and Steve for the MESS/CATO/neutral balance) for independence blah blah blah, or both. Either way, as a sort of saving face thing, I think the following results could be found:

1) Neither side is really at fault. The actions taken, on their own and in any other time or place, would probably not have resulted in what happened. Unfortunately in this one occurance, it happened to work out in the worst possible way. A tragedy of circumstance, in other words.
2) Things that might have prevented this: had the OD bomber turned on IFF at the first indication of being painted by FC radar, it is unlikely the NFT frigate would have fired. And had the NFT frigate issued a verbal challenge on open radio bands (a procedure which, from what I've seen, does indeed happen in RL) that might have prompted the Dominion bomber to identify themselves. Now it may not have prevented an actual flyover, but let's face it: aircraft flying over ships is one of those things that happen. I'm sure that, had it happened here some CATO bomber would return the favor to the ODN. That's just the way the game is played. But it shouldn't warrant a shootdown.

1) is basically the "no blame" part of it. 2) is sort of the face saving thing: it can be presented as recommendations for the future or as part of "things that might have prevented this accident" or whatever. But either way it sort of says that either side might have done something to prevent it and is about the closest to an apology either party is going to get.

Now, is this perfect and/or the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Probably not. But it's a gesture and a compromise and a way for both sides to walk away while still retaining something. Of course hardliners and their ilk will continue to play the Blame Game, but they'll do that no matter what. It's why we ignore them.

So I welcome your thoughts and ideas on the above proposal.

Insofar as to how the OD/TX backs down in response to PeZook's and Siege's post, I think having the Dominion Hawks leave the north side of F-ing and TXN ships move further offshore. Banning the TXN from "North of F-ing" entirely is a bit silly and overreaching, but some sort of distance away from actual NFT shorelines can be worked out I think. I think in a reciprocal gesture, the Comrade Stansilav could also find more interesting places to patrol around after a bit of time has elapsed from the drawdown?

---

On the matter of the Japanistani weather station, and just to further show that the MESS is not some monolithic entity, that is my concern. Far more than the bomber incident. From an OOC sense it rather annoyed me of the way Siege found and destroyed what Coyote had likely been intending as a secret op so soon after it was posted (the very next post IIRC). That's why I was all for Japanistan finding out. Not enough for a retcon or bad blood or anything, I just thought he might've at least conversed with Coyote first about it (AFAIK he didn't, if he did my bad).

That said, a response I would've rather seen was Japanistan having commandoes or something blow up whatever in Paradise Island. A totally deniable act of course, one the NFT can't pin on them, but a sort of message oif "We know" and as a move/counter-move sort of thing. I think that might've been a good ending to that, but Coyote and Siege could've worked together on more if they wanted. A little Japanistan dickery is always fun, after all.

On the IC front, Rufus Shinra is concerned because of his experiences. On a subconcious level I'm sure, he equates Japanistan as sort of the UAR's last remnant. And given that Shep launched nukes at his task force for taking away armor given to a TL nation (with the full permission of said TL leadership), nuked another TL city because of a sort of "gray area" bomber shooting (sort of like our Bomber Incident, only worse!) and then launched Global Thermonuclear War on some "first strike" MESS plan that had about as much substance as US plans to invade Canada. So given all that, President Shinra has some reason to be worried when somebody launches missiles at Japanistan. He's seen what could happen if they overreact, and his "past life" gives him the real fear that they just might.

Now, how much of this Sidney Hank would know or understand I'm not sure. I think if he and Rufus had a face to face he could explain it and, since they're both SDNers Hank probably wouldn't look at him crazy the way, say, Willy Banks would. And if PeZook's ambassador hadn't been there Rufus would have told Paul this concern as well. IIRC Rufus and Paul are supposed to meet again in the near future so it should be brought up there (PeZook keep it in mind if my forgetful self neglects to do so ). I know me and Steve had that long post of the "Condensed History of SDN World I" at the start but I'm not sure if any of the other "new players" had something similar. But anyway, that is where the IC concern comes from, and is why I'd want to see it addressed. Even if it's just a promise from CATO that such things will not happen again, or at least not without some other means of going about it. Because the rest of CATO should remember the UAR as well, after all.

---

Finally, I do tend to agree with Steve on his points. Most of this is OOC bleeding into IC, and I have mused before that such is the nature of SDN in general: when it comes to an argument, people want to win and damn the rest. And I'll be honest here and say I've not been perfect in restraining myself, though I do try not to get into flamewarrior mode in here. So really we need to keep that in mind and not bleed over into IC as we've been doing.

As for tensions in general, I don't mind them on principle. For those who remember the first game, especially my Red Phone with Stas, I do enjoy trying to deal with these sorts of things. It's fun, so long as it doesn't keep happening for silly reasons and seemingly every other month (which let's be fair: early MESS/OMSK was a bit like this as well last time). I think it's more interesting if there is some kind of low level tension/distrust/whatever between the different blocs, rather than everybody being Super Happy Best Friends all the time. It does open up possibilities storywise. The trick is, like anything else, to not overdo it. PeZook and Wilkens enjoy their space thing, but if that's all there was I'd be just as bored and not having fun with Space Simulator 2017 as Siege would with War Simulator 2017.

We do have Japanistan to mix things up, and I think they could be better used. Because MESS/CATO all the time, even low level stuff, would get old too. Alas Coyote, you're my friend and I have lots of respect for you, but you're no Sea Skimmer. Only Sea Skimmer is really Sea Skimmer.

I think an idea for them is that others can play with their actions, though maybe run it by OOC real quick first? Not as a vote or anything, but as sort of a proof reading or making sure it's sensical. I mean, the RUF in Costas was a good idea in theory, but if they're supposed to be some MESS or CATO unit making trouble and going to great pains to not leave evidence, why would they be firing 6.8mm USC or 7.62mm CATO? That's a big red flag right there that it isn't one side or the other, and was seen through pretty quick by Baerne. So avoiding things like that, or having Japanistan act totally off the wall, is a good thing. For the record though, I do think the interaction with Indhopal is being done well and does make sense and has plenty of possibilities. So I'm not totally criticizing you here, dude. Just saying that there is always room for improvement.

And that is my big long spiel. I await your replies with bated breath.

[K. A. Pital]

First of all, I'll take the "MESS silence" issue

That is not an issue. We are not holding your "silence" against you; in fact, we had slowed down the game so being silent for even a whole month wouldn't be critical to the game's timeline usually.

Next for the review idea: the "UN" idea collapsed. With it the idea of actually enforcement-capable ICAO and all other entities or administrations which could possibly "review" international accidents have likewise collapsed. CATO will not consider it beholden to any sort of law-empowered ICAO-type body. If there's some sort of "toothless ICAO" which has zero authority regarding the laws of international airspace, let it do whatever review it wants.

Banning the TXN from "North of F-ing" entirely is a bit silly and overreaching, but some sort of distance away from actual NFT shorelines can be worked out I think.

No one said about banning. Stop trolling and harassing Siege - that was our demand. However, we did note (and so did others) that the Old Dominion has no reasons to troll and harass Frequesuan powers, so it should and will be considered the provocator of the current tensions.

I think in a reciprocal gesture, the Comrade Stansilav could also find more interesting places to patrol around after a bit of time has elapsed from the drawdown?

The future destination of Comrade Stanislav and the merits of it's being in Frequesue waters are being discussed internally now. Bear in mind that naval deployment and redeployment, especially over distances in excess of 10000 km do not happen overnight, especially with the slowdown we did. It takes a little more time now than it did before.

[RogueIce]

That is not an issue. We are not holding your "silence" against you; in fact, we had slowed down the game so being silent for even a whole month wouldn't be critical to the game's timeline usually.

Ok. Some people did mention how when some MESS members decide to cause trouble, the others seem to sit by and let them without comment. I'm just saying why this sometimes happens. But if you're not gonna hold it against us that's fine.

Next for the review idea: the "UN" idea collapsed. With it the idea of actually enforcement-capable ICAO and all other entities or administrations which could possibly "review" international accidents have likewise collapsed. CATO will not consider it beholden to any sort of law-empowered ICAO-type body. If there's some sort of "toothless ICAO" which has zero authority regarding the laws of international airspace, let it do whatever review it wants.

I'm not saying there is such a body or should be. I was throwing out there that a one time international thing agreed to by the NFT and OD could be done if they want. They can also do independent reviews that conveniently reach the same conclusions because it's politically expedient.

Basically it's a tool to not lay any specific blame on anyone (1st part), and to sort of but not really apologize without apologizing (2nd part). Because that's the best we're gonna get. The 2nd part also lets us do some press release about how we're gonna take the recommendations to heart to avoid such tragic accidents in the future or whatever other feelgood BS we care to spin. Just so long as said "spin" is delivered in a nonaccusatory tone.

I like the idea of the "three panel review" of MESS/CATO/neutral because it also gives each alliance a way to reprimand either the OD or NFT if they do try some propoganda BS (not saying they will, just if). "The independent review we conducted, which you consented to take place found that neither party was at fault, so we are concerned that you are now attempting to contradict our findings and cast blame." Translation: "STFU and quit causing us trouble. We're not gonna take the lumps for you any more." With the MESS/CATO/neutral thing this threat of diplomatic reproof is there no matter which side tries to blame the other or otherwise dick around on the propoganda front. A sort of guarantee, if you will, that nobody's gonna go back on the deal we worked out.

Plus, we're "more likely" to find the politically expedient review than risk either side saying "fuck this" and clearing their own people while condemning the others. While of course being strictly independent.

Now of course such a thing could and probably would be called to the carpet by various journalists, bloggers and nerds on internet forums playing armchair diplomat ( ) but so far as the Official Government Position of the OD and NFT, their allies will be pressuring them to just accept it and put on your happy face, if need be. Or whatever. But I think you see my general idea: whitewash the fuck out of this incident.

No one said about banning. Stop trolling and harassing Siege - that was our demand. However, we did note (and so did others) that the Old Dominion has no reasons to troll and harass Frequesuan powers, so it should and will be considered the provocator of the current tensions.

We may just have to drop who is considered the "provocator of the current tensions" at least on an official level, because as we've seen all that does is keep these arguments going in circles. As I've said before, treating all this like an SDN debate where we go after "concession accepted" victory is just gonna make this stuff worse, both IC and OOC. So we'll both just try and get our feuding members to back off and make the point that we're tired of getting dragged into things that should have been settled IC weeks ago.

The future destination of Comrade Stanislav and the merits of it's being in Frequesue waters are being discussed internally now. Bear in mind that naval deployment and redeployment, especially over distances in excess of 10000 km do not happen overnight, especially with the slowdown we did. It takes a little more time now than it did before.

Indeed. I did say "in a bit of time" after all. I don't expect it to be instant. Basically though I think a return to the status quo in deployments for awhile would probably be a good thing as soon as it could be arranged. A public gesture that nobody is "claiming victory" by sailing around warships in an area of recent tensions where they didn't use to have so many. That sort of thing.

And I do think that, IC, the leaders of Wilkonia, Shinra, Canissia and Serenity will probably have a chat with the Huang Di and Lord Fairfax about starting shit and dragging the rest of us along for the ride. And for President Shinra's part, I think he'll talk with King Paul that there are probably better ways to deal with Japanistan being an asshole than shooting cruise missiles at them. Because he doesn't want to see a repeat of the Terra Libertia fiasco. And I don't care how confident you are, but nobody has 100% perfect defenses. If Japanistan loses it and goes for an all out attack, lots of people will die, regardless of whether you or we or whoever wins in the end. And such an outcome is more likely if you bomb their outposts than if you don't. Take that evidence Shady somehow collected (I'm not sure how he managed that actually, but whatever) and go public. Call them to account for it. Whatever. Don't just shoot missiles at 'em and risk an overreaction. That's what Rufus Shinra is going for. I don't know about the others.

[K. A. Pital]

Okay, let me be perfectly clear.

It's not our vessels who are trolling MESS nations. We will "back down" formally (like the meaningless "stand down to peacetime" gestures) and we easily "accept" that no one had the blame for the tensions (did the NFT officially "blame" the Old Dominion for sending their bomber in? NO. It just refused to apologize, which was par the course and absolutely normal as far as real politics go, see my note on many IRL incidents like that). But that's it. We aren't blaming anyone and we weren't officially blaming the OD or demanding anything from them. We are doing nothing. For us, it would not be a change of our official position.

Because he doesn't want to see a repeat of the Terra Libertia fiasco.

Why is the MESS concerned? The OC has more to fear from Japanistan than the MESS. Japanistan lacks the ability to seriously attack the MESS. It's Navy is pathetic and it's semi-modern airforce is perhaps the only serious threat it could levy against the MESS continent. As for Terra Libertia, let me remind you that CATO has no colonial holdings in Veleria other than the holdings of Zoria, I would presume. On the other hand, MESS nations operate there jointly with Japanistan (and so does IRT). Japanistan's attempts to cause trouble in F-ing, on the other hand, are far more troubling to CATO who have member nations there now, than they are to the MESS whose member nations are in the south of F-ing and don't experience any Japanistan interference.

And I don't care how confident you are, but nobody has 100% perfect defenses.

We aren't confident that much. That's why we made a deniable attack. And let's be frank, Japanistan fully expects some sort of losses in it's paramilitary operations in Frequesue. I doubt it's generals are idiots. Besides, a deniable attack around F-ing is not something that would make the Japanistanis go apeshit and attack the OC all of a sudden and risk the destruction of their nation. They might attack Frequesue, sure, that would be a huge fucking proxy war and by all means if "Evil Coyote" thinks that would happen (it makes sense after all), sure. After all, Japanistan is pretty potent as it is, even if it would find problems with maintaining a supply train for it's proxy warriors in F-ing.

But there are two things:
1) CATO has no demands to the Old Dominion (other than ceasing it's harassment of the NFT) and CATO does not seek through official institutions to "blame" the Old Dominion for the bomber incident or something. We do not seek official apologies. We simply don't care. If the OD could also finally calm down and say that "nobody is at fault, we don't care about it as well" that would be enough.
2) CATO's problems with Japanistan are of no concern to the MESS. The MESS has no rights to dictate anything to CATO nations regarding Japanistan. If CATO goes to a direct war with Japanistan, that would not impact the MESS (if only in a positive way because CATO would be ravaged after such a colossal war). If CATO has a proxy war with Japanistan, that is likewise none of the MESS' business.

[RogueIce]

Stas, you're basically agreeing with me on the bomber incident thing here. The mechanism I propose is there just so that as an IC thing the MESS can say to the OD, "Yes we have a way to reprimand you if you cast blame, but so does CATO have that ability with the NFT, so it's not like we're playing favorites here. If CATO and the NFT have no intentions of casting blame or laying fault at the door of the OD, great! I am all for that. It's there as an IC mechanism to convince the OD we're not all stacked against them. I would prefer neither side has to use it, but if we do it's available to both alliances. I've not said the NFT or CATO will do so, it's there just to show Lord Fairfax that in the unlikely event that they do, it's there, a consideration we make for purely IC purposes. By the same token CATO can show the NFT that the MESS can reprimand the OD for going back on it the same way. Regardless of whether or not Lonestar has any intention of doing so.

I just want to make clear I wasn't saying CATO would do so in case anyone thought I was. This is just one of those IC things because it's entirely reasonable to suspect certain members of the OD government might think they would. In short, it's a role playing thing, not an accusation or suspicion.

Regarding Japanistan:

Why is the MESS concerned? The OC has more to fear from Japanistan than the MESS. Japanistan lacks the ability to seriously attack the MESS. It's Navy is pathetic and it's semi-modern airforce is perhaps the only serious threat it could levy against the MESS continent. As for Terra Libertia, let me remind you that CATO has no colonial holdings in Veleria other than the holdings of Zoria, I would presume. On the other hand, MESS nations operate there jointly with Japanistan (and so does IRT). Japanistan's attempts to cause trouble in F-ing, on the other hand, are far more troubling to CATO who have member nations there now, than they are to the MESS whose member nations are in the south of F-ing and don't experience any Japanistan interference.

We aren't confident that much. That's why we made a deniable attack. And let's be frank, Japanistan fully expects some sort of losses in it's paramilitary operations in Frequesue. I doubt it's generals are idiots. Besides, a deniable attack around F-ing is not something that would make the Japanistanis go apeshit and attack the OC all of a sudden and risk the destruction of their nation. They might attack Frequesue, sure, that would be a huge fucking proxy war and by all means if "Evil Coyote" thinks that would happen (it makes sense after all), sure. After all, Japanistan is pretty potent as it is, even if it would find problems with maintaining a supply train for it's proxy warriors in F-ing.

2) CATO's problems with Japanistan are of no concern to the MESS. The MESS has no rights to dictate anything to CATO nations regarding Japanistan. If CATO goes to a direct war with Japanistan, that would not impact the MESS (if only in a positive way because CATO would be ravaged after such a colossal war). If CATO has a proxy war with Japanistan, that is likewise none of the MESS' business.

So far as I know, the MESS as a whole is not concerned with Japanistan. As I said, it's more to do with Rufus Shinra than anything else. People can have irrational concerns and fears, after all.

I'm not "dictating" anything to CATO. I'm just going to present my concerns with such actions to PeZook. I'm not going to embargo CATO or anything like that if you say no, though I would probably be concerned that something bad happens. Because such a hardline stance isn't gonna sit easy with my IC persona (and for the record I wouldn't be much happier if MESS members start acting that way either).

As far as concerns with a Japanistani war go, Canissia does share a land border with PeZookia so a heavy Japanistan BW attack against PeZook could spill over to him (I do have troops stationed there still). So there is some cause for concern over a CATO/Japanistan war, though you're right that the Messican continent members (and the OD and Serenity) themselves have less to fear. Same thing with a theoretical attack on F-ing, as I have people in the KoV and Tian Xia has Tian Jiao, so there is some risk of spillover if they attack. Even if we're not directly involved, wars nearby where we do happen to be are still slightly worrisome, wouldn't you agree?

Plus my general feelings that any large loss of life and destruction of nations is something to be avoided if possible, regardless of who's involved. I've still got that tiny spark of idealism left in me.

[Ryan Thunder]

No, but the OD hasn't gone to war with the NFT either, the extent of it's response has been to deploy 3 Dominion Hawk drones to Tian Jiao so that there can be one going back and forth off of the NFT coast at any given time(except during turnover, when there's 2).

Hmm? Does Miratia not exist, or something? Those drones violate my airspace and they're toast.

[Karmic Knight]

Hmm? Does Miratia not exist, or something? Those drones violate my airspace and they're toast. ;)

There is a straight line of failedish states, unclaimed land and my country from Tian Jiao to the NFT's areas. So he wouldn't have to violate your airspace.

[Ryan Thunder]

Baerne and Miratia form a fairly effective barrier to the North, and the RSF to the East, between the Commonwealth and Tian Jiao. You'd have to fly around Miratia and avoid the territory claimed in the north, which extends to the shoreline. Then you can start to think about getting near San Dorado.

It just seems to me to be a monstrously obtuse way of doing it. It'd be easier to base them in the commonwealth. Plus, you wouldn't be flying drones near a country that has a battery of nuclear cruise missiles pointed at Tian Jiao.

[Steve]

Um, he overflights them through Vineyards and then out to sea where they move along the NFT coastline.

[Steve]

Say, why don't we just decide this whole thing with a MegaMek contest?

[Shroom Man 777]

Can anyone link me to the first ever SDNW Moon Landing?

[CmdrWilkens]

Can anyone link me to the first ever SDNW Moon Landing?

Right here

[Lonestar]

Hmm? Does Miratia not exist, or something? Those drones violate my airspace and they're toast.

They've never violated your pissant country's airspace. Dominion Hawks are basically improved Global Hawks, which means they can loop around from Tian Jiao and remain on Station off of NFT for several hours before coming back.

[CmdrWilkens]

Oh no, I didn't just say ignore.

I said, I'm not even interested in any damn treaties. Go wave it in front of my face. I have zero faith in your credibility, that's all. I won't even sign one, neither will I back one. Go cry me a river. And if I don't back one, no one in CATO would. Have fun. If you screech too loudly, I would just tell your embassies to scoot off and I will do the Shep way and bulldoze the embassies and fill them with concrete.

Everything else aside WTF dude? What has Wilkonia done that would merit this? Essentially aside from the One Week War, the Caymans, MSA, and BIOCOM we've done nothing. What the fuck is out there to impeach the credibility of my country? If you are speaking about me as a player in the game then I also have to ask WTF dude?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Everything else aside WTF dude? What has Wilkonia done that would merit this? Essentially aside from the One Week War, the Caymans, MSA, and BIOCOM we've done nothing. What the fuck is out there to impeach the credibility of my country? If you are speaking about me as a player in the game then I also have to ask WTF dude?

Put it this way, if you have a club when some members go rousing trouble elsewhere and you guys don't do much to reel them in, and fights occur while you guys sit back, what do you expect us to think? The last conference had to require under the table dealing and now not even one damn game year later, we are back to square one? That the MESS as an organisation is hopeless dysfunctional? Is this now down to individual agreements now? You guys had this discipline problem back in Game 1. Has it occurred to you that it is back to haunt you guys again?

[CmdrWilkens]

Everything else aside WTF dude? What has Wilkonia done that would merit this? Essentially aside from the One Week War, the Caymans, MSA, and BIOCOM we've done nothing. What the fuck is out there to impeach the credibility of my country? If you are speaking about me as a player in the game then I also have to ask WTF dude?

Put it this way, if you have a club when some members go rousing trouble elsewhere and you guys don't do much to reel them in, and fights occur while you guys sit back, what do you expect us to think? The last conference had to require under the table dealing and now not even one damn game year later, we are back to square one? That the MESS as an organisation is hopeless dysfunctional? Is this now down to individual agreements now? You guys had this discipline problem back in Game 1. Has it occurred to you that it is back to haunt you guys again?

So in other words you are unwilling to work with Wilkonia, the Shinra Republic, and Canissia because we won't "reign in" the OD and TX? You say this in the same post where you ignored the question of me asking you what you want us to apologize over or reign them in over in the first place. There is a point when your bitching becaomes illogical and this is quite damn near it. I won't even get into the insanity of folks alternatively decrying the "big scary MESS" and then calling us disjointed.