SDNWorld Redux - Casting Call & Planning

[DarthShady]

Please don't laugh too much.

And keep in mind that this was made by a guy who had 3 tanks in the last game.

Navy

Total Pts
CVN 32
CV 1 16
LHD/LHA (Large) 8
LHD/LHA (Small) 6
LPD/LSD 2 4
LST 8 2
CGN 12
CG 2 6
DDG 2 4
FFG 2
Corvette 1
SSN 4 4
SSK 6 2
AOE 3 4
AKE 2
Pts Left -100

Air Force

Total Pts
5th Gen (x4) 4 0
Lightweight 5th Gen (x4) 2 0
4th Gen (x4) 10 2 40
Lightweight 4th Gen (x4) 4 1 16
3rd Gen (x4) 1 0
Lightweight 3rd Gen (x4) 0 0,5 0
Strategic Bomber 15 2 15
Tactical Bomber 15 1 15
Tanker 6 1 6
Heavy AWACs 4 2 4
Light AWACs 2 1 2
Trainer (x4) 2 0,5 8
Strategic Transport (x4) 2 4 8
Tactical Transport (x4) 2 2 8
Heavy Maritime Patrol (x4) 4 0
Light Maritime Patrol (x4) 2 0
Recon (w/o base) 1 2
Pts Left -100

Army and Helicopters

Total Pts
MBT 3rd Gen (x60) 3 4 180
MBT 2nd Gen (x60) 2 0
MBT 1st Gen (x60) 1 0
AFV [non-MBT] 3rd Gen (x120) 3 2 360
AFV [non-MBT] 2nd Gen (x120) 1 0
AFV [non-MBT] 1st Gen (x120) 0,5 0
MLRS-type Artillery (x27) 2 2 54
Heavy SP Artillery (x16) 4 2 64
Medium SP Artillery (x16) 2 1 32
Field SP Artillery (x16) 1 0
Medium Towed Artillery (x18) 5 0,5 90
Field Towed Artillery (x18) 6 0,25 108
Heavy Air Defense Artillery (x16) 2 3 32
Medium Air Defense Artillery (x16) 4 2 64
Light Air Defense Artillery (x16) 4 1 64
Heavy Lift Helicopter (x30) 3 0
Utility Helicopter (x30) 1 1 30
Attack Helicopter (x24) 2 2 48
Light Attack Helicopter (x24) 2 1 48
Professional Infantry (x1000) 22 1 22000
Conscript Infantry (x2000) 6 1 12000
Untrained Infantry (x3000) 1 0
Marines (x900) 4 1 3600
Paratroopers (x900) 2 1 1800
Engineers (x800) 1 1 800
"Elite" Special Forces (x60) 1 4 60
"Moderate" Special Forces (x60) 3 0
Pts Left -100

It's a bit of a MESS( ) but if you put it in the spreadsheet it looks great.

Opinions? Suggestions?

[Beowulf]

There's a reason why the Duchies have the numbers they do. If they get too big (300) then you end up with either one of the levels being too close to the next higher, or the Imperiums end up too large. It was originally planned for a straight 1/2 reduction in each level from the next higher one, but that would have resulted in a rather strange 187.5 number of points for the duchy total. So both the duchies and the principalities got bumped up a bit. 210 is a much more round number than 187.5, no?

As for the adjustments, I forgot to remove that section. The points are total points for the military as a whole. So you can have militaries which are fairly unbalanced as far as which part has the majority of your investment.

Also, note that 5th gen fighters (F-22s) are severely limited in the number you can have in your initial amount.

[Coyote]

What is the final answer on the points allocation systems? Last I heard there was some discussion about how the different levels were divided up, the GNPs, trading points in one category for point sin another, etc.

Apart from the History thread, we should probably have a Stats thread where we can start posing our current OOBs.

[Beowulf]

My plan is that each level is roughly half the size of the next higher, except principalities and duchies get bumped a tad in size. That only really applies to GNP and actual military points. As for population and land area, that's up to whatever the player wants. If they want a billion population, they can do that... but their GNP is still going to be the same, so they'd end up 1/10 as wealthy on average as an imperium who only has the suggested level.

[RogueIce]

What is the final answer on the points allocation systems? Last I heard there was some discussion about how the different levels were divided up, the GNPs, trading points in one category for point sin another, etc.

Your GDP stays pretty static: 5 trillion for Imperiums, then half of each level down to Kingdoms. Principality and Duchy get a little boost, which I don't remember offhand but Beo has it.

The "points" only really go into military stuff via the spreadsheet. You can divy up your points however you want: I'm personally going with even 1/3 in each category, but I'd adjust that as I need to. If you want to throw all your points into the Navy and have a bare minimum Air Force or Army you can certainly do that.

On the 5th Gen fighter thing, it's a maximum of 1% of your total points, rounded up to the nearest point. Which means it goes as follows:

Imperium - 30 pts = 28 fighters (7 flights)
Tsardom - 15 pts = 12 fighters (3 flights)
Kingdom - 8 pts (rounded up from 7.5) = 8 fighters (2 flights)
Principality - 5 pts (rounded up from 4.2) = 4 fighters (1 flight)
Duchy - 3 pts (rounded up from 2.1) = 0 fighters (sucks to be you )

[Karmic Knight]

As for the adjustments, I forgot to remove that section. The points are total points for the military as a whole. So you can have militaries which are fairly unbalanced as far as which part has the majority of your investment.

Fuck, time to rearrange my oob.

If someone other than me decides to use the European fighter plane designs, I'll be happy too. But SOMEONE must use em - they're too pretty! PeZook? Fingolfin?

Gizmonic Institute, Founded by the Joels, Hodgson & Robinson prides itself of providing the highest quality Aircraft for the VRAF (Vinish Royal Air Force).

So, I'll be using European fighters.
EDIT.

[Beowulf]

Imperium/Tsardom/Kingdom/Prince/Duchy
$5 trillion/$2.5 tril/$1.25 tril/$700 bill/$350 bill

[DarthShady]

So the final decision is that a Duchy gets 210 military points?

[RogueIce]

Aside from having 90 more pts (overall) than you should...

Navy
CV 1
LPD/LSD 2
LST 8
CG 2
DDG 2
SSN 4
SSK 6
AOE 3

Why the carrier? Save some money and get LHDs/LHAs instead? They'd be more useful in getting your rather large Marine forces where they need to go. You're probably better served with the smaller AKEs as well.

Air Force
4th Gen 40
Lightweight 4th Gen 16
Strategic Bomber 15
Tactical Bomber 15
Tanker 6
Heavy AWACs 4
Light AWACs 2
Trainer 8
Strategic Transport 8
Tactical Transport 8
Recon (w/o base) 1

Only 8 trainers? You're going to have a horribly ineffecient pilot replacement program. Either that or you'll have to rely on your neighbors to do pretty much all of your basic and intermediate flight training.

Army and Helicopters
MBT 3rd Gen 180
AFV [non-MBT] 3rd Gen 360
MLRS-type Artillery 54
Heavy SP Artillery 64
Medium SP Artillery 32
Medium Towed Artillery 90
Field Towed Artillery 108
Heavy Air Defense Artillery 32
Medium Air Defense Artillery 64
Light Air Defense Artillery 64
Utility Helicopter 30
Attack Helicopter 48
Light Attack Helicopter 48
Professional Infantry 22000
Conscript Infantry 12000
Marines 3600
Paratroopers 1800
Engineers 800
"Elite" Special Forces 60

As a note, heavy SP arty is stuff greater than 155mm, so the Big Guns is where that goes, and was mainly for those who wanted things like the rail guns or whatever.

Also, your heavy ADA seems a bit wasteful if you're going to be on a continent. Especially if you're going to be in the FUN with various allied countries all sharing the same landmass (and thus air defense requirements).

You also have more professional volunteers than conscripts, which seems unnecessary. You could probably put those conscript points somewhere more useful, or shave them off altogether (you know, to keep in the limits ).

[DarthShady]

Rogue mang thanks for the advice.

I will make the appropriate corrections.

[RogueIce]

On another note, since AKEs will not refuel your ships conventional fuel (all by itself, anyway...they do have some fuel storage), I added in a new category, the AO (fleet oiler).

Basically an AKE/AO combination is equivalent to an AOE, but the AOE is faster in terms of speed (to better keep up with your battlegroup). But the AKE/AO combination lets you do UNREP quicker overall, since it's two ships at a time. Now technically it's still the same amount of time overall if you're operating a purely conventional Navy, but if you have CVNs and/or some CGNs (which obviously won't need refueling underway) and develop DDGNs and whatever, it will be a bit faster overall.

Plus there is redundancy...if an AOE gets hit you're screwed out of your UNREP, but if an AKE or AO get hit (one, not both) than either could pick up the duties of the other (to a limited extent) and there is that whole "two for the price of one" deal.

And thus, I have updated the spreadsheet.

EDIT: For those who don't want to look at the spreadsheet, an AO is 2 pts, same as an AKE.

[Siege]

On the subject of constructive OOB criticism, if anyone could take a look at what I put together that'd be mightily appreciated.

Code: Select all

[b]"Navy (65 pts)[/b]
LHD/LHA (Large)	1	8
CGN					1	12
DDG					5	4
Corvette			5	1
SSN					2	4
AOE					3	4

Not sure what I'm going to use the nuclear powered cruiser for, but I have this irrational desire for one .

Code: Select all

[b]Air Force (71 pts)[/b]
4th Gen (x4)						18	2	72
Tactical Bomber					10	1	10
Tanker								2	1	2
Light AWACs						2	1	2
Trainer (x4)						6	0.5	24
Tactical Transport (x4)		3	2	12
Heavy Maritime Patrol (x4)	3	4	12

Wherein the HMP will also be used for sorties over my (presumptive) third-world militia-ridden shithole neighbors. Otherwise I'm fairly convinced this works out reasonably well.

Code: Select all

[b]Army & Helos (74 pts)[/b]
MBT 2nd Gen (x60)							1	2	60
AFV [non-MBT] 2nd Gen (x120)			5	1	600
MLRS-type Artillery (x27)				2	2	54
Heavy SP Artillery (x16)				1	2	16
Medium SP Artillery (x16)				3	1	48
Heavy Air Defense Artillery (x16)	2	3	32
Medium Air Defense Artillery (x16)	4	2	64
Light Air Defense Artillery (x16)	3	1	48
Heavy Lift Helicopter (x30)			2	3	60
Utility Helicopter (x30)				3	1	90
Attack Helicopter (x24)				3	2	72
Light Attack Helicopter (x24)		4	1	96
Professional Infantry (x1000)		16	1	16000
Marines (x900)							2	1	1800
Paratroopers (x900)					4	1	3600

I think I may have overdone it on the ADA front, but since I've only got two cities and not much else I'd really rather keep those in one piece...

EDIT because of RogueIce's post: perhaps all this spreadsheeting of ten dozen different types of ships, MBTs, etc. etc. is fun for you MESS guys, but it's a right old pain in the arse for me, so if you don't mind I'm not going to transplant this chart onto the newfangled spreadsheet. I really don't feel like bothering with oilers versus AOEs and so on and so forth -- hell I have to look up just what an AOE is in the first place. I get that we have to establish some baselines for everybody's stuff, but let's not go overboard here: I seriously doubt many players will be calculating how far their ship's fuel will let them sail once the game has begun anyway.

[Raj Ahten]

One thing I don't like about the points system is that Special Forces are too expensive, in my opinion. You might be able to justify SAS sorts costing quite a lot, but only getting 60 men of ranger quality for the same cost as 3,000 troops equipped and trained to NATO levels as basic infantry? That’s way too expensive.

I'm also curious about the point’s scheme. Has anyone tested it by putting a real world country up against a country of similar GDP who’s force is bought with points? Could you buy Sweden's military with a duchy's points for instance?

Edit: Looking at the swedish airforce and navy, that works out to 131 points, of which 112 went to the airforce. Not sure waht the hell Sweden's army lloks like, but it is tiny. Then again, Sweden is a nation that spends less than 2% on defense.

[Setzer]

On the subject of constructive OOB criticism, if anyone could take a look at what I put together that'd be mightily appreciated.

Code: Select all

[b]"Navy (65 pts)[/b]
LHD/LHA (Large)	1	8
CGN					1	12
DDG					5	4
Corvette			5	1
SSN					2	4
AOE					3	4

Not sure what I'm going to use the nuclear powered cruiser for, but I have this irrational desire for one .

That CGN is gonna be one hell of a white elephant considering your size. And you should ditch the corvettes. Anything they can do can be done better by an FFG.

Code: Select all

[b]Air Force (71 pts)[/b]
4th Gen (x4)						18	2	72
Tactical Bomber					10	1	10
Tanker								2	1	2
Light AWACs						2	1	2
Trainer (x4)						6	0.5	24
Tactical Transport (x4)		3	2	12
Heavy Maritime Patrol (x4)	3	4	12

Wherein the HMP will also be used for sorties over my (presumptive) third-world militia-ridden shithole neighbors. Otherwise I'm fairly convinced this works out reasonably well.

If your neighbors are all 3rd world shitholes, you can use 3rd gen stuff. With decent upgrades and pilots, they'll do okay against later generation stuff, and you can afford more of them.

Code: Select all

[b]Army & Helos (74 pts)[/b]
MBT 2nd Gen (x60)							1	2	60
AFV [non-MBT] 2nd Gen (x120)			5	1	600
MLRS-type Artillery (x27)				2	2	54
Heavy SP Artillery (x16)				1	2	16
Medium SP Artillery (x16)				3	1	48
Heavy Air Defense Artillery (x16)	2	3	32
Medium Air Defense Artillery (x16)	4	2	64
Light Air Defense Artillery (x16)	3	1	48
Heavy Lift Helicopter (x30)			2	3	60
Utility Helicopter (x30)				3	1	90
Attack Helicopter (x24)				3	2	72
Light Attack Helicopter (x24)		4	1	96
Professional Infantry (x1000)		16	1	16000
Marines (x900)							2	1	1800
Paratroopers (x900)					4	1	3600

I think I may have overdone it on the ADA front, but since I've only got two cities and not much else I'd really rather keep those in one piece...

<snip the spreadsheet bit>

Makes sense. You might want a bit more in the way of tanks and artillery, though. Those nice expensive SAMs will be worth jack shit if someone breaks you on the battlefield.

If you don't like the points setup, you can always declare a budget and go by what other nations afford on a similar budget. IIRC, Marina is still permitting that.

I think Shep is also working on a spreadsheet that takes into account maintainance, facilities, operational status and the like. It'll probably be a bit easier for everyone

[Raj Ahten]

I am playing a principality, with a GDP of around $750 billion. I plan on having a large military, so 5% of GDP going to defense would be $37.5 billion a year for a military budget. That puts me in the same ballpark as Germany, acording to some calculations. Thoughts on this?

[Setzer]

Look around. You'de be surprised what that kind of money can buy you. The South Koreans have several hundred thousand men, about 500 aircraft, and a modern fleet with 30 billion.

[Sea Skimmer]

I am playing a principality, with a GDP of around $750 billion. I plan on having a large military, so 5% of GDP going to defense would be $37.5 billion a year for a military budget. That puts me in the same ballpark as Germany, acording to some calculations. Thoughts on this?

Keep in mind that the German military is under funded for its force structure and has some serious problems because of it, shortages of key communications equipment, totally insufficient training particularly for large operations, failure to modernized or even properly maintain major weapons systems ect… so if you have a military budget equal to Germany your military should overall bit a little smaller so that it does not suffer these issues. That is... unless you fully intend to field a large conscript army without the best equipment. In that case you could have a much bigger army for the same price.

Though, on the other hand the Germans also have to buy a lot of equipment through retarded international cooperation projects (which always raise costs ) so by mostly buying domestic products and not being part of a Eurofighter boondoggle equivalent would help balance things back out.

[Raj Ahten]

Look around. You'de be surprised what that kind of money can buy you. The South Koreans have several hundred thousand men, about 500 aircraft, and a modern fleet with 30 billion.

Yeah, I have been. Figuring an order of battle is likely to be difficult, but in a good way

[Setzer]

I'll stick with the points setup for now, since it gives me the best compromise between numbers and force mix. Sure, I don't have it all quite as big as I would like, but that's true for damn near everybody.

[Setzer]

Anyway, here's the first draft of my forces. Lemme know what you think:


Elite Guard unit "Bloody Angels" (company strength)

The Bloody Angels are my personal guard. The unit consists of 180 females between the ages of 18 and 40, all with special forces training. I'm damn sure you guys are gonna do something like this, so I might as well be first.

Sirnoth Army
2 Armored Cavalry Regiments
4 Mechanized Infantry Regiments
3 Infantry Regiments
2 Artillery Regiments
1 Army Aviation Regiment
1 Airborne Regiment

180 Special Forces
21000 infantry
1800 Paratroopers
1600 Engineers
300 Leopard 1A5 Tanks
840 Marder IFVs
54 MLRS
192 PzH2000 155mm SP howitzers
216 155mm towed howitzers
96 Gepard AA vehicles
30 CH-47 Heavy lift helicopters
90 UH-60 utility helicopters
48 AH-1 gunships

Total: 106 pts

Sirnoth Marines

5,400 Marines
120 AAV
120 LAV
60 Leopard 1A5
48 Gepard AA
36 155mm towed howitzers
24 AH-1
90 UH-60
30 CH-46
48 F-4E

Sirnoth Navy

2 Audacious class CV
2 Canberra class LHA
4 Harper's Ferry class LSD
10 LST(3) class LST
6 Ticonderoga class CGs
8 Arleigh Burke class DDGs
16 O.H. Perry class FFGs
10 Loni class SSK (local manufacture, roughly equivalent to Russian Kilo class)
2 Chalice class AOE
2 AKE
90 F-4E

216 pts

Sirnoth Air Force

158 F-4E (plus 90 for the Fleet Air Arm, and 48 for the Marines. points included in the below total)
2 KC-135
12 C-130
32 TF-4E Trainers
12 P-3C Maritime patrol planes

98 pts

[Mr Bean]

We need a link to all these spreadsheets and point totals, in fact we need a new thread

SD.Net Redux(Building your Country) with just a list of references in there.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Beowulf, I take it the army template you have is based on the idea of the latest equipment?

Also, do we have to account for UAVs as well?

[Setzer]

UAVs? Crap, that is a tricky one. I suppose you could lump them in as lightwieghts?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

UAVs? Crap, that is a tricky one. I suppose you could lump them in as lightwieghts?

I'm more inclined to use UAVs for recon work than manned aircraft.

Also, is it alright to class a Tu-142 as a Heavy maritime patrol craft? Admittedly, it's more of a medium bomber.

[Raj Ahten]

Well I posted my OOB in the Stickied thread for it. My force is supposed to be used heavily for Brushfire wars against third world oponents and such. Comments are very welcome. Here it is again for easy reference:

Army:
-7 Mechanized Infantry Regiments
-3 "Heavy" Regiments
-1 Artillery Regiment
-2 Airborne Regiments (2000 Paratroopers and 1 BN of field artillery for 2.5 pts total)
-2 Aviation Regiments
-Special Warfare Command (31.5 points).
-48 Heavy SAM's
-64 Medium SAM's
-48 Light SAM's
-24 Light Attack Helicopters
-30 Aditional Utility Helicopters

Air Force
-4 5th gen. Fighters
-212 4th gen. Fighters
-22 4th gen. Ground Attack
-64 3rd gen. Fighters
-10 tankers
-2 Heavy EWACS
-6 Light EWACS
-64 Trainers
-12 Strategic Lift Aircraft
-36 Tactical Lift Aircraft
-12 Light Maritime Patrol

Navy
-6 Attack Subs
-7 Frigates
-4 Destroyers
-1 Large LHD (I want a small aircraft carrier)

It's laid out as per Beowulf's premade units as I don't want to spend hours making my OOB when I'm not entirely sure what it should look like. I'm also not quite sure if I want to use the points system or if I want to base my armed forces more on what Germany or some other nation is fielding, based on their defense budget. I really don't have the detailed knowledge of other nation's militaries to really do this well, unless someone like Sea Skimmer (whose comments on Germany's military are much apreciated) was willing to give me a hand with it.

For UAV's I'd say small ones should certainly be integrated in with your infantry and such when you pay for advanced units. For larger ones some standard will have to be devised.