SDN World 3 Ship Design Thread

[RogueIce]

Clearly you reached across the vastness of the Internet and stole that idea from me.

Actually I was just making something with 9 12" guns just to see what it'd take and play with SpringSharp a little. Then Steve pointed out that was basically an Alaska class.

6 - 0.00 lbs / 0.00 kg mines + 6 reloads - 0.000 t total
in Above water - Stern racks/rails

Weightless mines? Pretty impressive technology you got there.

(IOW, I think you missed a step)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Clearly you reached across the vastness of the Internet and stole that idea from me.

Actually I was just making something with 9 12" guns just to see what it'd take and play with SpringSharp a little. Then Steve pointed out that was basically an Alaska class.

Hah. I had showed Steve a variant of this design a month ago, but that one had 15" 18ft high belt, and I wanted to cut it back a few thousand tonnes. This was the end result. It still has comparable armor in some ways to an Iowa, ironically, though obviously shorter...

Weightless mines? Pretty impressive technology you got there.

(IOW, I think you missed a step)

Actually, what's bugging me is what would be an adequate weight of a mine...

[Ma Deuce]

Armoired Deck means the top most surface deck (the one your crewman on Captain's Mast have to spend all their time scrubbing ) is the one with armored plates attached to it. It makes the ship a bit more top heavy but also means that it protects the entirety of the ship below (a multiple deck design simply means this is the first of several decks with armor)
Protected Deck means that the first deck down is the one which receives first protection. This lowers your center of gravity and makes for a more stable ship but renders the space vulnerable to plunging fire. Since your barbettes and conning tower are protected this space usually doesn't include anything vital (store rooms, passageways, crew quarters, etc) you aren't automatically leaving yourself more vulnerable but your lightweight top deck is more likely to deflect shells downward and your deck armor really depends on the angle of impact to give it the chance of resisting a shell hit.

That's not really how it works at all; I wouldn't take that diagram in SS too literally BTW. The type of deck will have nothing to do how height it is mounted: That is determined by two factors, the height of the belt above the waterline, and the relative height of the internal decks.

An "armored deck" simply means a flat (or effectivly flat) armor deck that extends all the way to the side of the ship where it joins with the top of the main belt. This deck is rarely situated at the freeboard unless the main belt extends that high, usually it is actually one or two decks below the freeboard. This setup became common in second generation designs (post-Jutland), and was almost universally used in 3rd generations (the '30s through WWII), with only a few designs (such as the German ones) continuing to use the protected deck scheme.

The "protected deck" (sometimes called a turtleback deck) is a deck that is sloped downward at the edges; the top of the deck is generally the same height as the top of main belt, but the sides slope down and often join with the belt toward the bottom, if there is one (the "protected deck" gets it's name from the "protected cruisers" in which it was first used, which had such a deck but no belt, relying on their coal bunkers combined with the outboard slope for vertical protection). This creates a second layer of protection behind the belt, and provided the slope is thick enough it means that it will be very difficult for a shell that passes through the belt to get through the slope as well (Bismarck for instance had such a sloped deck, and her vitals were effectively immune to any shell passing through the main belt: her main armored deck was a different story, however). The drawbacks of a turtleback deck are that it reduces the volume of protected buoyancy, and that if a shell passes just above the belt then hits the slope, it will do so a a very favorable angle for penetration thus would find an easy path into the ship's vitals, as seen in this diagram of HMS Hood:

http://www.warship.org/images/no21987-1 ... trials.jpg

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Question: If I were to convert an existing cruiser design to a carrier, how best should it be done?

[Thanas]

Question: If I were to convert an existing cruiser design to a carrier, how best should it be done?

I found no ways to do so with Springsharp. A crude way might be to remove the main guns and add the weight to additional loads, but that is not a very accurate way at all.

[Steve]

This is the way I've been shown and use, but it won't be entirely accurate IMHO as it would shortchange, say, the USS Ranger on its airwing. It's mostly a quick and dirty estimate way.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

This is the way I've been shown and use, but it won't be entirely accurate IMHO as it would shortchange, say, the USS Ranger on its airwing. It's mostly a quick and dirty estimate way.

I'm mildly tempted to use the Independence class as a reference, and do some scaling from there...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

My Cleveland cruiser equivalent. I might use this hull for an Independence type light carrier.


Sparta, Byzantium Cruiser laid down 1926

Displacement:
12,704 t light; 13,989 t standard; 16,667 t normal; 18,809 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(655.42 ft / 623.36 ft) x 68.90 ft x (29.53 / 32.14 ft)
(199.77 m / 190.00 m) x 21.00 m x (9.00 / 9.80 m)

Armament:
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 53.0 cal guns - 115.77lbs / 52.51kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
4 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
4 x 4-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
6 x 4-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,142 lbs / 972 kg
Main Torpedoes
24 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m torpedoes - 1.914 t each, 45.944 t total
In 6 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
2nd Torpedoes
24 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m torpedoes - 1.914 t each, 45.944 t total
In 6 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
Mines
12 - 2,200.00 lbs / 997.90 kg mines + 48 reloads - 58.929 t total
in Above water - Stern racks/rails

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 401.00 ft / 122.22 m 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 19.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
3.00" / 76 mm 401.00 ft / 122.22 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 60.00 ft / 18.29 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 2.50" / 64 mm 2.50" / 64 mm 2.50" / 64 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 6.00" / 152 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 109,558 shp / 81,731 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,820 tons

Complement:
733 - 953

Cost:
£3.988 million / $15.953 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 813 tons, 4.9 %
- Guns: 625 tons, 3.7 %
- Weapons: 189 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 4,216 tons, 25.3 %
- Belts: 1,415 tons, 8.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,202 tons, 7.2 %
- Armament: 587 tons, 3.5 %
- Armour Deck: 928 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Tower: 84 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,507 tons, 21.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,117 tons, 24.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,963 tons, 23.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,425 lbs / 9,264 Kg = 189.1 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.460 / 0.477
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 32.81 ft / 10.00 m, 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 23.21 ft / 7.08 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.9 %
Waterplane Area: 28,701 Square feet or 2,666 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 570 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.85
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Ma Deuce]

Actually, what's bugging me is what would be an adequate weight of a mine...

Have you tried Navweaps? They have information on various nations' mines going back to at least WWI, though some of the entries don't list the total weight of the mine (just the charge).

[Ryan Thunder]

10kt on the mark, one 450L45 gun. I can build twelve of these for every battleship Wilkens produces.

I am aware that this is nowhere near as efficient per tonne. Any other thoughts?

Dragón, Gran Colombian monitor laid down 1925

Displacement:
8 158 t light; 8 644 t standard; 10 000 t normal; 11 085 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(492.13 ft / 492.13 ft) x 59.06 ft x (19.69 / 21.45 ft)
(150.00 m / 150.00 m) x 18.00 m x (6.00 / 6.54 m)

Armament:
1 - 17.72" / 450 mm 45.0 cal gun - 2 804.10lbs / 1 271.92kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading gun in turret on barbette mount, 1925 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
6 - 5.91" / 150 mm 45.0 cal guns - 103.86lbs / 47.11kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3 427 lbs / 1 555 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 319.88 ft / 97.50 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 319.88 ft / 97.50 m 18.67 ft / 5.69 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 32.81 ft / 10.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 36 260 shp / 27 050 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 10 000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2 441 tons

Complement:
499 - 650

Cost:
£2.522 million / $10.087 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 708 tons, 7.1 %
- Guns: 708 tons, 7.1 %
Armour: 2 987 tons, 29.9 %
- Belts: 1 308 tons, 13.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 435 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 524 tons, 5.2 %
- Armour Deck: 642 tons, 6.4 %
- Conning Towers: 79 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1 177 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 286 tons, 32.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 842 tons, 18.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16 756 lbs / 7 600 Kg = 6.0 x 17.7 " / 450 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.612 / 0.622
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 28.18 ft / 8.59 m, 23.06 ft / 7.03 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 23.06 ft / 7.03 m, 17.95 ft / 5.47 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 17.95 ft / 5.47 m, 17.95 ft / 5.47 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 17.95 ft / 5.47 m, 17.95 ft / 5.47 m
- Average freeboard: 20.15 ft / 6.14 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 123.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.9 %
Waterplane Area: 21 491 Square feet or 1 997 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 582 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 1.96
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, if you consider your ships expendable I guess... because it'd take probably only one shell to kill them...

[CmdrWilkens]

10" of main belt and deck armor only on the fore deck means that any shell even a 5" and up hitting you would probably be fatal. Your magazines and engines are exposed and I could engage this with my CLs pretty safely .

[RogueIce]

10kt on the mark, one 450L45 gun. I can build twelve of these for every battleship Wilkens produces.

I am aware that this is nowhere near as efficient per tonne. Any other thoughts?

It's the standard displacement that matters WRT build time, and just to be safe I'd not go higher than 9,999t standard if you want to keep that bracket. So basically, you could still add a bit more to that design.

[CmdrWilkens]

10kt on the mark, one 450L45 gun. I can build twelve of these for every battleship Wilkens produces.

I am aware that this is nowhere near as efficient per tonne. Any other thoughts?

It's the standard displacement that matters WRT build time, and just to be safe I'd not go higher than 9,999t standard if you want to keep that bracket. So basically, you could still add a bit more to that design.

For the record this bracket would still be 18 months between design, build, and trials versus 3 years for a >25k ship so from a timeframe you can build 2 for 1 and figuring 4.5 of these against one of my 45kt BB for IBP cost that would be 9 to 1 over a 3 year period. Now each BB would have 12 guns (my BBs have 12 my BCs 9 as a general rule) so the 9 cruiser monitors with 9 guns against my 1 ships with 12 guns. I'd outgun you and could sink you with single hits from my main gun which would further reduce the numbers advantage, meanwhile each of your ships has to rangefind by itself with a single barrel, you RoF will be slowed and even a direct hit isn't guaranteed success.

In other words...yes if you devoted yourself to building 9 of these to each 45 kt battleship I built (and the IBP expenditure would be damn close) you would still be outgunned with a lower performance vessel subject to crippling counter-battery.

[CmdrWilkens]

So anyway the following is likely to be my 1927 series CL, edits are gonna be made right up to them being laid down but this is my working design right now:

San Juan, Mexico Light Cruiser laid down 1927

Displacement:
9,090 t light; 9,413 t standard; 9,897 t normal; 10,285 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(624.66 ft / 600.00 ft) x 62.00 ft x (24.00 / 24.60 ft)
(190.40 m / 182.88 m) x 18.90 m x (7.32 / 7.50 m)

Armament:
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 47.0 cal guns - 112.44lbs / 51.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 150 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1916 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 39.0 cal guns - 1.86lbs / 0.84kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 12.0 cal guns - 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
Weight of broadside 1,853 lbs / 840 kg
Main Torpedoes
6 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m torpedoes - 0.617 t each, 3.703 t total
submerged bow tubes
2nd Torpedoes
36 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 8.00 ft / 2.44 m torpedoes - 0.617 t each, 22.217 t total
below water reloads
Main DC/AS Mortars
2 - 250.00 lbs / 113.40 kg Depth Charges + 40 reloads - 4.688 t total
in Stern depth charge racks

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 14.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
3.00" / 76 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 62.00 ft / 18.90 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 6.00" / 152 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 79,654 shp / 59,422 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 872 tons

Complement:
495 - 644

Cost:
£3.066 million / $12.262 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 476 tons, 4.8 %
- Guns: 435 tons, 4.4 %
- Weapons: 41 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 3,702 tons, 37.4 %
- Belts: 1,173 tons, 11.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,277 tons, 12.9 %
- Armament: 505 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 688 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 60 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,514 tons, 25.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,348 tons, 23.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 807 tons, 8.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.5 %
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,895 lbs / 4,488 Kg = 91.6 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.388 / 0.393
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.68 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 47.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 17.00 ft / 5.18 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 15.53 ft / 4.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.4 %
Waterplane Area: 22,713 Square feet or 2,110 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 108 lbs/sq ft or 525 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.22
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Thoughts, comments, questions, concerns, moans, gripes, complaints?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

On one hand, I'd say that submerged tubes are a sure fire way that ships get sunk on the first torp, but on the other hand, these ships rarely survive more than one torp. So it's a bit of a Hobson's choice. The ship is rather slow at cruise though.

[CmdrWilkens]

On one hand, I'd say that submerged tubes are a sure fire way that ships get sunk on the first torp, but on the other hand, these ships rarely survive more than one torp. So it's a bit of a Hobson's choice. The ship is rather slow at cruise though.

Since its a CL versus a CA I'm basically designing them as a DD with the ability to actually engage in a gun fight for some time. Without hull bulges or other underwater protection schemes maneuverability would have to be the best defense against torpedoes since we are still in the unguided era. I also wanted both bow and stern shots and with the DC racks in the rear (plus the 50kt which I forgot to designate as being for two seaplanes) there would probably be severe space restrictions on doing the stern units above water.

[Ryan Thunder]

In other words...yes if you devoted yourself to building 9 of these to each 45 kt battleship I built (and the IBP expenditure would be damn close) you would still be outgunned with a lower performance vessel subject to crippling counter-battery.

There has to be a way around this.

[RogueIce]

There has to be a way around this.

Well, to preface: I'm no expert here. So if you take my advice and it doesn't work, you were warned.

Anyway, if you're sailing those monitors out to the Gulf to go attack his BBs, that's a bad thing to do and they will likely die. My guess is, however, if you kept them nearer to your shoreline (say within the protection of coastal forts) they'd be more effective. Adding their guns to that which the fort can fire and with a bonus of, they can move. If his ships shoot at the monitors, they're not shooting at the fort. If they shoot at the fort, they're not shooting at the monitors. If they split between the two, they're only half as effective against both as they would've been against either alone.

Essentially, they're a coastal protection ship, and not meant to go out in open water and duel with a battleline.

Of course, as I said, that's just my rough guess on the situation (and I emphasize guess). I would defer to others with more knowledge on the subject.

EDIT: As for rangefinding, I don't know. Maybe sacrifice some of those 5" guns for another single 450mm turret? It'll probably push displacement up, but you do have some leeway in that regard. But that's just a wild ass guess, as rangefinding with naval gunfire is something I know nothing about.

[CmdrWilkens]

In other words...yes if you devoted yourself to building 9 of these to each 45 kt battleship I built (and the IBP expenditure would be damn close) you would still be outgunned with a lower performance vessel subject to crippling counter-battery.

There has to be a way around this.

Invest in air tech and torpedo bombers. Because I've got drains on my IBPs what with building my fleet to match most NF 5 battle lines along with my committment to Nicaragua and the need to maintain a two ocean presence it would be pretty tough for me to invest in a purpose built CV prior to say 1929/30. If in the intervening years you were able to move up to AT3 and develop a really solid torpedo bomber then you could build some 25kt displacement CVLs and sorties them against me. I've got AA on most of my newer ships but as a return on investment the 1pt/10planes means you can spam Torpedo Bombers much more quickly than I could shoot them down unless I have fighter aircraft as protection.

The thing is if you are trying to maneuver a hundred odd small warships in to position to reliably engage a dozen or so of my battleships its just gonna be hellish. Even the best coordination will result in a dispersal of effort while each of my ships could simply pick you off one at a time. Simply put there is no way to cheaply engage a BB without a near equal number of BBs OR some method of delivering a lot of torpedoes.


Simply put unless you want to engage in a surface fleet building bonanza it would be really tough to take on my battle line toe to toe on the surface especially as you only have 3 25kt slips and 2 40kt slips. Put another way there is no cheap way to beat a carrier swarm once we get to the late 30s.

[Beowulf]

My take: Monitors are actually only good for land bombardment (and not against coastal artillery). They are actually offensive weapons to support land troops. If you want to actually defend against an opposing battleline, you must have one of your own. Depending on your theory of operation, you can either have a fast line which will bring the fight to the enemy, and destroy him, or a slow line, which waits for the enemy to come to them, and destroys them. The latter is cheaper in terms of tonnage, or can be better armed and armored than the opposition.

Now monitors, due to their design, are typically better gun platforms than battleships. This is primarily due to their relatively tubby design, which also tends to restrict their speed to something that submarines can keep up with. Fortunately, if they keep to near the coast, submarines can't operate there because the water is too shallow for them to operate. Unfortunately, they don't have enough guns for the fact that they're better gun platforms to matter against a manuevering target. Best bet, I think, is to have them designed to beach themselves when near the battlesite, so that they're effectively unsinkable. With proper design and operations, they can also be unbeached, so that they can be moved later. This would effectively convert a monitor into a mobile coastal fortification.

It's useful to look at what other countries operated monitor type designs. You've got Britain, which used them offensively during WWI against land targets, and you've got the coastal battleships, which were primarily used by states with lots of offshore islands that the coastal BBs could hide behind, resulting in a relatively short range fight, where the inability to properly range find was not a factor.

Essentially, you got yourself into the jeune ecole style of thinking, where radically different weapons can help change the course of any war against you. Which is true, just not in the way that you were hoping.

[RogueIce]

Tweaked the armor a bit on suggestions by Ma Deuce. Since these are going to be laid down as soon as I get over to the Construction Queue thread, this is pretty much the final design barring some refits or a new build program. Or if I have to change something that breaks reality, of course (like if I screwed up my turret mounts and have too many/too few).

Tampa CA1925, United States Heavy Cruiser laid down 1925

Displacement:
23,637 t light; 24,610 t standard; 27,756 t normal; 30,272 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(707.71 ft / 700.00 ft) x 90.00 ft x (30.00 / 31.99 ft)
(215.71 m / 213.36 m) x 27.43 m x (9.14 / 9.75 m)

Armament:
9 - 10.00" / 254 mm 50.0 cal guns - 529.33lbs / 240.10kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 300 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1.87lbs / 0.85kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
6 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,284 lbs / 2,397 kg
Main Torpedoes
12 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 1.086 t each, 13.036 t total
In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 454.95 ft / 138.67 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 15.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
2.00" / 51 mm 437.36 ft / 133.31 m 26.94 ft / 8.21 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 70.00 ft / 21.34 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm - 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 5.00" / 127 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 155,568 shp / 116,054 Kw = 33.40 kts
Range 8,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,662 tons

Complement:
1,074 - 1,397

Cost:
£6.774 million / $27.098 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,620 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 1,594 tons, 5.7 %
- Weapons: 26 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 8,877 tons, 32.0 %
- Belts: 2,698 tons, 9.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 872 tons, 3.1 %
- Armament: 1,623 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 3,429 tons, 12.4 %
- Conning Towers: 257 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 5,051 tons, 18.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,025 tons, 28.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,119 tons, 14.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 63 tons, 0.2 %
- On freeboard deck: 63 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37,376 lbs / 16,954 Kg = 74.8 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.514 / 0.526
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 18.76 %, 31.00 ft / 9.45 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Aft deck: 32.48 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarter deck: 18.76 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 23.73 ft / 7.23 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.3 %
Waterplane Area: 44,229 Square feet or 4,109 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 741 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

2 Scout Aircraft Included

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It took quite a bit of effort, shedding here and there, while keeping with an average belt height of 18 ft, to arrive at a ship that burns at 28kt, while having a long cruise range at 10,000nm and at 14kts.

So...

Justinian, Byzantine Empire Battleship laid down 1926

Displacement:
51,716 t light; 55,027 t standard; 58,783 t normal; 61,788 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(805.76 ft / 787.40 ft) x 95.14 ft (Bulges 118.11 ft) x (36.09 / 37.91 ft)
(245.60 m / 240.00 m) x 29.00 m (Bulges 36.00 m) x (11.00 / 11.55 m)

Armament:
9 - 18.00" / 457 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3,000.01lbs / 1,360.78kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
40 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.0 cal guns - 2.12lbs / 0.96kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
10 x Twin mounts on side ends, majority aft
4 raised mounts - superfiring
40 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
10 x Quad mounts on side ends, majority aft
28 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm 12.0 cal guns - 0.04lbs / 0.02kg shells, 4,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
28 x 4-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
Weight of broadside 28,046 lbs / 12,721 kg
Main Torpedoes
1 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m torpedo - 1.327 t total
submerged side tube

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 19.50 ft / 5.94 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 21.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
4.00" / 102 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 38.00 ft / 11.58 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.00 ft / 19.81 m

- Hull Bulges:
2.00" / 51 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 21.0" / 533 mm 14.0" / 356 mm 16.0" / 406 mm
2nd: 2.50" / 64 mm 2.50" / 64 mm 2.50" / 64 mm
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 8.00" / 203 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 14.00" / 356 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 126,656 shp / 94,486 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,761 tons

Complement:
1,886 - 2,453

Cost:
£17.027 million / $68.108 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5,182 tons, 8.8 %
- Guns: 5,179 tons, 8.8 %
- Weapons: 3 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 22,853 tons, 38.9 %
- Belts: 6,427 tons, 10.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,700 tons, 4.6 %
- Bulges: 355 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 5,576 tons, 9.5 %
- Armour Deck: 7,208 tons, 12.3 %
- Conning Towers: 586 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 4,054 tons, 6.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,506 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7,068 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 0.2 %
- Hull above water: 20 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
78,413 lbs / 35,568 Kg = 26.9 x 18.0 " / 457 mm shells or 15.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 21.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
an extended bulbous bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.613 / 0.613
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 39.37 ft / 12.00 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 24.98 ft / 7.62 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.1 %
Waterplane Area: 57,819 Square feet or 5,372 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 239 lbs/sq ft or 1,169 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Thanas]

That ship is very close to my own Scharnhorst design. Really, the only difference is that the Scharnhorst is a bit faster for less deck armor.

[CmdrWilkens]

It took quite a bit of effort, shedding here and there, while keeping with an average belt height of 18 ft, to arrive at a ship that burns at 28kt, while having a long cruise range at 10,000nm and at 14kts.

So...

Justinian, Byzantine Empire Battleship laid down 1926
Main Torpedoes
1 - 21.0" / 533 mm, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m torpedo - 1.327 t total
submerged side tube

You only have a single torpedo on the whole ship? No reloads?

Anyway as a comparative design the main battery and weight is basically the same as my Majestuoso class that in under construction right now (55,027 versus 55,030) but you get the extra belt and deck (as well as 2kts on the cruise speed) while mine has 2kts more top end.