An SDNW Proposal

[Flameblade]

If you really want. Keep in mind that the UN is the mod hammer state and that its interaction with other players will be low-key unless we mods feel the need to use it for something.

Hokay. That works perfectly for what I'm plotting out right now.

[Siege]

I'm sorry, but I have to object to there being five--five!--30 NCP moderator states around. I didn't mind when it was just Steve, after all he put a lot of time and effort into getting this game going and it would just be one nation among many. But five?! That's far too great a number of nations given a significanty larger number of points than the rest of the players--and for no readily apparent reason either; after all the UN is the designated NPC mod-hammer, the states the moderators themselves RP as are not supposed to function in this way.

Mind you it's not that I don't trust Rogue, Wilkens, Steve, Shady and Fin, it's that I think no good reason has been provided why all moderators should be handed such a frankly unfair point advantage. Why are they getting this bonus when nobody else does?

[Akhlut]

I'm sorry, but I have to object to there being five--five!--30 NCP moderator states around. I didn't mind when it was just Steve, after all he put a lot of time and effort into getting this game going and it would just be one nation among many. But five?! That's far too great a number of nations given a significanty larger number of points than the rest of the players--and for no readily apparent reason either; after all the UN is the designated NPC mod-hammer, the states the moderators themselves RP as are not supposed to function in this way.

Mind you it's not that I don't trust Rogue, Wilkens, Steve, Shady and Fin, it's that I think no good reason has been provided why all moderators should be handed such a frankly unfair point advantage. Why are they getting this bonus when nobody else does?

I second this motion. Hell, I don't even mind Steve getting 30 points, since this game is almost entirely his working and he's been going through the lion's share of responsibility on the game so far, but with 5 guys who have an 8 point lead on my territories makes me a lot more unwilling to actually get engaged in things like war and diplomacy. And, like Siege says, it isn't that I don't trust everyone who has those point advantages to not be enormous dicks about it, but it smacks of a lot of unfairness when in SNDW3, the mods didn't have a point advantage and that worked out perfectly well.

[Dave]

<snip>

<snip>

Indeed. I was under the impression that the UN should be the mod sock puppet state, like Admiral Kanos is Darth Wong's Administrative account.

The mods can play if they wish, certainly, but they should play through their own states, and all the policing should be done (in my humble opinion) through the sock-puppet of the UN. Multiple mods can RP the actions of the UN.

Unless the 30 point state is a bonus for acting as a mini-mod, in which case I think that administrative duties should be done out of a desire to have a fun game, and not have a massive benefit associated with it.

EDIT: And anyways, why does a mod-state need extra resources to perform moderator duties? I mean, most of this game is role-playing anyways -- wouldn't moderator interventions be performed outside of the scope of normal operations and be RP'd anyway?

I mean, it's not like "The Iduran Confederacy has pushed it's war economy too far and suffers economic depression; which, among other things, limits ship building to shuttlecraft for the next two years." requires moderator-state resources.
Similar statements would be:
"The Iduran 5th Battle Fleet mis-jumps and reappears inside a star, as a result of over-extending the fleet logistical section and getting the wrong coordinates." -- For something like over extending the military

"The Iduran sector of Eko suffers significantly increased pirate activity, requiring a full battle group to be moved there to regain economic control of the sector." -- For something like not keeping enough local defense.

"The UN declares the entirety of the Iduran Confederacy to be a Galactic Emergency Zone, and the 356th, 401st and 702nd UN Fleets of the Line [all of which were fabricated, whole-cloth, on the spot for moderator activity] have placed the empire under UN martial law until the situation has resolved itself." -- For extreme misbehavior, effectively suspending all activity on behalf of that player and declaring all recent and future RPs by that player to be null and void.

None of these require actual resources on behalf of the mod-state -- they are really acts of Q Mod.

[Norade]

I agree with the others on this issue.

[Dark Hellion]

Ok, so now that the restriction on bumping home territory is rescinded I think I can make my state work.

Code: Select all

[b]The Emissaries of the XylyX[/b]

Central Processing: CC1
Home Sector + 3 GDP boost + 2 Population boost (5 points)
GDP: $23,000
Population: 90 billion population units
Warp gate, Hyperspace Junction
System Defenses: Overall: $11,500 Defensive Combat Value: $2300 Invasion Requirement: $6900

Resource Exploitation Sector α: BB1
Core Sector + 2 GDP boost + 2 Population boost (9 points)
GDP: $16,000
Population: 80 billion population units
System Defenses: Overall: $8000 Defensive Combat Value: $1600 Invasion Requirement: $4800

Resource Exploitation Sector β: CC2
Core Sector + 2 GDP boost + 2 Population boost (9 points)
GDP: $16,000
Population: 80 billion population units
System Defenses: Overall: $8000 Defensive Combat Value: $1600 Invasion Requirement: $4800

Totals:
NCP Spent: 23 points
GDP: $55,000
Population: 270 billion population units

I'll get up a running fleet and army soonish. I would like to ask kindly that no one place themselves closer to me than what is already present. I would like to have it be part of my RPing that my faction is from out in the boonies and has had pretty much no contact with the galaxy at large. They are only now really coming out and attempting to implement their plans/destiny.

And a quick aside to Thanas. I think we should have fewer drop outs in this than SDNW3 because we have simplified and abstracted the rules quite a bit. I dropped out of SDNW3 because I got fucking tired of looking shit up. I looked up 1920's exchange rates, copper price trends, gold price trends, active Angolan mines, the quality of iron from said mines, etc. and still wasn't anywhere near versed enough to make even the least attempt to run my country. I am sure other people quit for similar reasons like the endless nitpicking about springsharped ships, the build rate and economic viability of railroad construction in the Middle East, etc. At the end of the day the average STGODer really doesn't give a crap what structural changes needed to be made in Japanese Battleships to account for the lower quality of Japanese tamohage steel compared to steel made from Rhodesian iron ran through English Bessimer processes. The first week of SDNW3 was a decent into mindless and meaningless minutia which isn't even present at all in this game.

I also feel that there are a few too many 30 point mod states. Why not just have Steve be 30 points as supermod and then the rest be 26 point (auto-rolled max) states? Seems a bit more balanced and will probably free up a bit of room on the map.

Finally, a request to Steve. Could you put up numbers in parenthesis after the letters of the X-axis? It makes it a whole bunch easier to figure out distances when you can quickly plug into the Pythagorean Theorem instead of having to count and then plug it in. What is with you silly wargamers and your lettered columns/numbered rows anyways? The Cartesian plane as worked pretty well for all us math types since 1637 but you just have to be difficult. I bet you hate commas.

[Dave]

Steve requested I rewrite my history, so I have done so. This resulted in me changing the name of my nation.
Thus, it is no longer the "Loose Confederation of the Turtle", but the Iduran Confederation

Brief History:
Since time out of mind, the Idurans had worshiped the 14 gods. There were always sharp divisions among the believers, as to which god what more important or more powerful, though most agreed that all 14 gods existed. The gods, they said, told them to be fruitful and multiply, and when a mathematician and an engineer designed the Beicl-Hocylict FTL drive that was exactly what they did. All the major factions on the homeworld of Idura sqaubbled over who should build the ships or fund the colonies. There was always fighting and bickering, not least over which god one followed.

Each colony tried to one-up the others, by building the highest flagpole, or the most beautiful temple, or the most luxurious palace for their monarch... or the biggest military. The homeworld could barely keep hold of them and keep them paying taxes. Finally, in 2287, a tactical nuke was used on the Iduran Imperial Palace, killing all inside, completely eliminating the entire hereditary royal population, and effectively beheading the Iduran capital government. The squabbling and bickering exploded into outright political, economic, and eventually military warfare. Each religious sect, political faction and individual with a soapbox and loudspeaker blamed another or internal forces on Idura for the "blasphemous and outrageous upheaval of the natural order of things as the gods proclaimed it", as one priest put it. War raged for over two decades between and among every single colony and the homeworld as each tried to assert control. Billions died in the Great Fingerpointing.

Eventually, cooler, secular heads prevailed and each of the sectors began to rebuild. A loose, overarching government was formed in an effort to prevent the horrific slaughter from happening again.

The first great test for the jurisdiction of the Confederation came in 2356, when a diplomatic starship from Nova Terra arrived in Ojofu and asked to open peaceful trading negotiations. The sector government tried to leverage this advantage to the hilt, trying to become an exclusive point of entry for trade and contact with the humans. The Confederation government's dominance was cemented in great part due to the quick thinking of then Prime Minister Harkon, who almost simultaneously opened a broad videoconference with the monarch of each sector and requested each other member state's military to send their own escort fleet to protect the diplomatic envoy.

The Ojofu sector government swiftly "found" it more politically wise to avoid breaking rank with its fellow sectors, and the Confederation's jurisdiction in external affairs was established.

The politics of the Iduran Confederation have been complicated and dangerous for centuries, but somehow the Confederation stays together. Each city-state is ever vying for political points, leverage and money, and though there has never again been a military war between the city-states, there is always some tension between them, and the intra-Confederation economic and political warfare can get nasty.


Government: The government of the Confederation consists of a single house parliament with a Prime Minister elected from within the parliament; most city-states, however, are constitutional monarchies.

Economy: Inter-sector economy is only moderate, as each sector is generally self-sufficient. Tourism is a notable industry. Raw Materials are a major export, and there are some worlds/sectors that are easing immigration restrictions, trying to encourage scientific, economic and technological progress. Systems manufactured by most member worlds are generally known not for their cutting-edge technology but for their ruggedness, durability and reliability even under heavy loads.

Species: 60% Iduran, 27% human, 13% other

Religions: There is no official, confederation sponsored religion, though a few of the city-states have their own official religion.

Languages: Iduran, Standard English.

Currency: Mark (or MK for the lazy). Standard SI prefixes are used for fractions or multiples of this.

Technology: Lags somewhat behind the galactic average, as with small city states scientific work ends up being compartmentalized. Also, given the Iduran penchant for safety, that also has tempered the rate of scientific progress, though the humans in the populations have been pushing the Idurans along so that they're not hopelessly slow. The tardiness in technology is made up for somewhat in the use of extra-redundant systems, so the ships can take rather more punishment before crippling or catastrophic failure. This is somewhat prevalent throughout the technology of the Iduran Confederation, so overall any kind of technology from this confederation is going to be sturdy (but slightly behind the times), not just the military hardware.

Foreign policy: Neutral, isolationist.


Military:
Due to the state of the politics of the Iduran Confederation, the government cannot come up with the political drive needed to fund the creation of anything bigger than a Heavy ship -- the city-states are just too independent to work together on so big a project. However, due to the Iduran desire for safety, those ships that are produced are strong, durable and fault-tolerant. There may not be many of them, but they easily best the smugglers, pirates, and other local/regional space scum that the Navy normally has to deal with.

The same goes for the army -- the army does not take just any volunteer. The males and females in the Army/Marines are professionals, and they are just slightly above average. This also goes for their equipment. The equipment is supposed to be the right tool for the right job, and it's supposed to bring the occupant home in one piece.

Bottom line: The watchwords of the military are quality over quantity, and taking a deliberate step away from cutting corners and towards combat survival rates. Does this come at the expense of brutal efficiency? Perhaps.

Also of note is that this is, at its core, a police force, not a military force. Though they have experience bringing down small drug cartels, smuggling rings, and the occasional band of pirates, they have not faced an open war or even a rebellion since the Eko Belt Miner Uprising almost 200 years ago. If the Idurans gets in a real shooting war with another major power, massive changes will have to take place.

Why the need for a relatively large and well-trained police force? Because apprehending ginger-high gangs of narcotics smugglers is not a task to be taken lightly, and it happens all too frequently.

22 NCPs

System
Idura [Capital]
Ojofu
Septimus
Cetafe
Elaya
Eko
Ktutz
Bilan

System Type
Core
Mid
Mid
Mid
Mid
Mid
Colony
Colony

Locations
k13
k12
j14
k14
j13
j12
i12
j15

Data
50 Bil Population, $14,000 GDP, 1 Hyperspace Junction and 1 Warp Gate inherited by forgoing Home sector
30 Bil Population, $6,000 GDP
30 Bil Population, $6,000 GDP
30 Bil Population, $6,000 GDP
30 Bil Population, $6,000 GDP
30 Bil Population, $6,000 GDP
10 Bil Population, $2,000 GDP
10 Bil Population, $2,000 GDP

Systems: 22 pts
Warp Gates: 1, for 0 pts (inheirited)
Hyperspace Junctions: 1, for 0 pts (inheirited)

Total Population : 220 Billion
Total GDP : $47,000

Military Total Numbers:
Navy:

10 Athenen-class Carriers ($140 - heavy hull) (Generally one per sector)
40 Protector-class Destroyers ($155 - heavy hull) (Usually 5 per sector)
180 Loyalist-class Cruisers ($90 - medium hull) (Roughly 20 per sector)
280 Unity-class Cutters ($50 - light hull) (Roughly 30 per sector)
100 Cairo-class specialist ships ($25 - ultralight hull) (Roughly 10 per sector)
50 Yachts (various tasks)

[These numbers are assuming fighters/gunboats are not included in carrier costs, and represent an 75/25 % split in carrier loadout. If fighter costs are actually included in carrier costs, well, I don't especially care. They're not that expensive.]

175 Vulture-class Gunboats
525 Falcon-class Fighters

800 Hyperlight shuttles
800 Regular shuttles



Army:

Troops
Elite
Regular

Troop Total
30,000,000
150,000,000

Troops per dollar
35,000
95,000

Equipment Multiplier
3.1
2.1

[CmdrWilkens]

I'm sorry, but I have to object to there being five--five!--30 NCP moderator states around. I didn't mind when it was just Steve, after all he put a lot of time and effort into getting this game going and it would just be one nation among many. But five?! That's far too great a number of nations given a significanty larger number of points than the rest of the players--and for no readily apparent reason either; after all the UN is the designated NPC mod-hammer, the states the moderators themselves RP as are not supposed to function in this way.

Mind you it's not that I don't trust Rogue, Wilkens, Steve, Shady and Fin, it's that I think no good reason has been provided why all moderators should be handed such a frankly unfair point advantage. Why are they getting this bonus when nobody else does?

One note on the WHY side of things and a side note. Taking the later first the 5 mod members of the mod-council represent roughly 12% of the total player base and (UN Aside) 15% of the available NCPs...in other words even discounting the fact that the mods are spread throughout the game map none of them are individually stronger than any alliance against them.

As to the why...speed. The UN for all that it is the mod hammer still represents at its central location a problem in terms of influencing conflict on the fringes of the map...moreover as a mod hammer it can be (and is) a rather blunt instrument. The mods themselves (myself included) are spread throughout the map which allows for mini-hammering without having to break out the UN.

The other reason is that, and this is part of agreeing to be on the council, does require a notable chunk of time being available for council business. Right now that mostly means that I spend time on AIM chatting with Rogue and Steve bu once the game starts up it does mean surrendering an amount of my time (small amount though it may be) to be available for council business. This isn't some free gift where we are just hanging a mod-banner in our front window then just playing the game as normal. So there is a commitment to balance against the bonus provided.

Now it may not appear proportional in folks eyes and maybe it isn't (I can't say in any disinterested way) but I signed up to be a mod before Steve even reminded me about the 30 NCP deal and I'll be one regardless but I think on the whole there is a valid reason for giving all the mod-council members a boost.

[Siege]

If moderator states are supposed to function as mod-hammers to speed things up that makes the current setup worse, not better, because now it will inevitably become difficult to determine whether a state's actions are motivated by the player or by that player in function as a moderator. This is just an absurdly bad idea all round, and one that's completely unnecessary to boot.

I also find the notion of extra NCPs as a bonus for investing time in this game ridiculous: either you're committed and willing to devote the time, or you're not. The consequences of either should be obvious, and a bonus shouldn't ever figure into whether you take a seat on the council or not.

[Norade]

If moderator states are supposed to function as mod-hammers to speed things up that makes the current setup worse, not better, because now it will inevitably become difficult to determine whether a state's actions are motivated by the player or by that player in function as a moderator. This is just an absurdly bad idea all round, and one that's completely unnecessary to boot.

I also find the notion of extra NCPs as a bonus for investing time in this game ridiculous: either you're committed and willing to devote the time, or you're not. The consequences of either should be obvious, and a bonus shouldn't ever figure into whether you take a seat on the council or not.

I again agree, there should be some shadowy menace beyond the edges of the map to act as mod hammer along with the UN. Not some mod states that also have worry about playing the game and mod hammers that can be killed off. Besides, how could anybody ever feel safe attacking a mod nation then?

Would the UN step in if the players decided to form an anti-mod nation group and wipe the mod hammers from the face of the map before uniting against the UN? If so how is that fair, if not how do you intend to keep your mod hammers?

[Steve]

Hellion's idea of automatic 6 rolls for the other mods is good - we only have five six roll players as it is, so it leaves the mods fairly powerful in-game. I've had Simon_Jester in AIM chat advocating it, so much of the credit for persuading me goes to him, though Hellion gets credit for the idea.

I apologize to the mods for having to rework their data again and I apologize to the players for my presumption.

Also, if requested I, too, will take a 26 NCP state instead of the 30 one I claimed a few weeks ago.



As for wiping out the mod hammer, well, by definition it's the freaking mod hammer. Frankly for enough players to work together to be clearly superior to the mod hammer and to require its victory to be an ass-pull, it means that a major portion of the player base are in open revolt and the STGOD's probably screwed anyway.

Also, to simply target the mod nations as some sort of vendetta somewhat flies in the face of the entire character of the STGOD as proposed, which is not about "Winning" a game but about having fun with stories and player initeractions and such. The whole "Don't be a douche" rule. If a bunch of players in the SW quadrant gang up for the explicit purpose of killing Rogue's nation or Wilkens', that'd fall under the "being a douche" part I'd say.

[Norade]

As for wiping out the mod hammer, well, by definition it's the freaking mod hammer. Frankly for enough players to work together to be clearly superior to the mod hammer and to require its victory to be an ass-pull, it means that a major portion of the player base are in open revolt and the STGOD's probably screwed anyway.

Also, to simply target the mod nations as some sort of vendetta somewhat flies in the face of the entire character of the STGOD as proposed, which is not about "Winning" a game but about having fun with stories and player initeractions and such. The whole "Don't be a douche" rule. If a bunch of players in the SW quadrant gang up for the explicit purpose of killing Rogue's nation or Wilkens', that'd fall under the "being a douche" part I'd say.

I'm just saying why should mod nations be in any way special? There are many ways to do things and as I suggested the UN and an outside threat controlled by nobody would be a better option than having mod states be involved in discipline in anyway. Besides, you already said a well formed alliance could take out an individual mod state so why couldn't a few such alliances form using the near non-existent stories that we have now?

If it isn't about winning then why give mods anything extra at all? They will already have stronger stories and ties to the game by virtue of being mods and being deeply involved in things, why add any other advantages? I'm even against mod states getting auto sixes to start because mods shouldn't need to be bribed into helping and having them start a cut above will only serve to make things less fair than they should be.

[Steve]

Sorry, i thought you were talking about a group of players ganging up to destroy the modhammer.

And we only need one. I honestly don't want to go for the tired cliche of the grand existential threat to everyone.

[Norade]

Sorry, i thought you were talking about a group of players ganging up to destroy the modhammer.

And we only need one. I honestly don't want to go for the tired cliche of the grand existential threat to everyone.

I was, but in the end it would really amount to the same thing and would be reasonable if mod fleets from those systems had to smack people down. After all them attacking another nation for something that may or may not be reasonable may give others and excuse to attack.

I agree, to solve the issue maybe add some UN outposts linked to the main body by super hyperlanes that only the UN has the etch to use.

[Steve]

Sorry, i thought you were talking about a group of players ganging up to destroy the modhammer.

And we only need one. I honestly don't want to go for the tired cliche of the grand existential threat to everyone.

I was, but in the end it would really amount to the same thing and would be reasonable if mod fleets from those systems had to smack people down. After all them attacking another nation for something that may or may not be reasonable may give others and excuse to attack.

I agree, to solve the issue maybe add some UN outposts linked to the main body by super hyperlanes that only the UN has the etch to use.

I think that's overcomplicating things when we're mostly worried with "story", not ruleset elements.

[Norade]

Sorry, i thought you were talking about a group of players ganging up to destroy the modhammer.

And we only need one. I honestly don't want to go for the tired cliche of the grand existential threat to everyone.

I was, but in the end it would really amount to the same thing and would be reasonable if mod fleets from those systems had to smack people down. After all them attacking another nation for something that may or may not be reasonable may give others and excuse to attack.

I agree, to solve the issue maybe add some UN outposts linked to the main body by super hyperlanes that only the UN has the etch to use.

I think that's overcomplicating things when we're mostly worried with "story", not ruleset elements.

Maybe, either way using UN outposts instead of Mod states would be the better way to enforce the rules should a need arise.

[Thanas]

I also find the notion of extra NCPs as a bonus for investing time in this game ridiculous: either you're committed and willing to devote the time, or you're not. The consequences of either should be obvious, and a bonus shouldn't ever figure into whether you take a seat on the council or not.

I agree with this, especially if we go by time invested, none of the mods (with the exception of Steve) even approached an above-average level of activity in the last game. Heck, if we go by that, then frankly Lonestar, Siege and me should get the boost.

[Flameblade]

The entire idea of the moderators having more powerful states just because they're moderators smacks of the much-maligned (and rightly so) DMPC in pen and paper roleplaying games. If the UN is supposed to be the lever for in-game moderator action, then that's well and good, make sure it can fulfill its role. If each moderator's state is both playing the game and enforcing the 'rules' (as they are) at the same time, then you're going to have some nastiness down the line.

[Sea Skimmer]

My understanding was we would have a powerful earth as a mod hammer to be used only when required, and nothing more. Multiple mods playing the game with ranked up powers full time is unacceptable bullshit. The whole damn idea last I checked was that mods would simply make bad things happen to power gamers, not necessarily in the form of military action. More like a plague breaks out because the population is working itself to death. No justification exists for them to 'need' more powerful forces.

[Coyote]

I have to agree with the general assessment, and Skimmer's interpretation of how it is to be applied.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I also find the notion of extra NCPs as a bonus for investing time in this game ridiculous: either you're committed and willing to devote the time, or you're not. The consequences of either should be obvious, and a bonus shouldn't ever figure into whether you take a seat on the council or not.

I agree with this, especially if we go by time invested, none of the mods (with the exception of Steve) even approached an above-average level of activity in the last game. Heck, if we go by that, then frankly Lonestar, Siege and me should get the boost.

You do realise that everyone, excluding Steve, was with the game since the first incarnation? WOuld you like to count the hundreds of posts everyone else made?

The last game died by virtue of minutae and sheer boredom, nevermind the spinelessness of certain unnamed players?

[Norade]

I also find the notion of extra NCPs as a bonus for investing time in this game ridiculous: either you're committed and willing to devote the time, or you're not. The consequences of either should be obvious, and a bonus shouldn't ever figure into whether you take a seat on the council or not.

I agree with this, especially if we go by time invested, none of the mods (with the exception of Steve) even approached an above-average level of activity in the last game. Heck, if we go by that, then frankly Lonestar, Siege and me should get the boost.

You do realise that everyone, excluding Steve, was with the game since the first incarnation? WOuld you like to count the hundreds of posts everyone else made?

The last game died by virtue of minutae and sheer boredom, nevermind the spinelessness of certain unnamed players?

That shows that the mods deserve extra how?

[Steve]

That shows that the mods deserve extra how?

I think Fin's objecting to Thanas' remarks on activity in the last game specifically, not on the issue of mod bonuses.

[Norade]

That shows that the mods deserve extra how?

I think Fin's objecting to Thanas' remarks on activity in the last game specifically, not on the issue of mod bonuses.

You're probably right. Sorry Fin.

[Steve]

Now that this discussion has run its course, anyone still looking for map placement?