Covenant wrote:I'll be short with my input, others seem to have it down nicely
Interdiction: I love interdiction, but I think tying it to range or speed of charge-up is problematic, so I thought up an easier-to-RP way of dealing with it that also still stops the microjumping and orbit-ganking. I also think that we should state that a FTL drive is also an Interdiction device when it is turned to 'idle' mode, and that the bubble it makes is about a lightsecond big.
The general method of generating the interdiction bubble doesn't really matter, but that's a good way of justifying it for a given nation.
I propose that we focus on interdiction/noninterdiction devices that control how CLOSELY ships can open hyperspace windows to each other, friendly or otherwise. Jumping into an area that is flush with active interdiction equipment would scatter your fleet and randomize your headings when you get forced out, leaving you relatively easy to pick off as you try to re-establish formation. We'd just RP this as the defenders getting the upper hand in that first exchange--the element of suprise. You'd need to cut engines before you enter, or else stand a chance of running into each other.
A high level of noninterdiction would allow you to come out in a much tighter pattern and all facing the right way--and presumably moving at fullspeed towards the enemy, able to drop missiles or fire beams as soon as you get a firing solution, and get the drop on them instead.
Escape works the same way--but if your fleet is tied up in combat surrounded by other little interction bubbles, they would need to disperse before being able to form stable windows and escape--or they would need to escape a few ships at a time. This kind of retreat is very familiar to us and makes sense from even an oldschool Napoleanic standpoint, so I think it'd be easy to see where the advantage of good interdiction equipment comes in there. Quality equipment lets you slip off on your own.
That was just a convenient way of explaining it in descriptive terms. I think a consistant form of RP-able stuff would work best for Interdiction, not just "It takes longer," since that's kinda hard to describe.
The solution to interdiction and hyperspace is simple, and more importantly, it's already been done. Hate to say it, you're reinventing the wheel here. We have a perfectly acceptable system for interdiction and hyperspace. Interdiction causes interference with a ship's ability to enter hyperspace. Since it takes longer to enter hyperspace under interdiction, it only makes sense that it takes longer for interdiction to affect ships with better hyperdrives. If a fleet with FTL +10 enters a standard interdiction field, they'll come in at an edge, and slip out with very little chance for anyone to get a shot. It's that simple.
Hyperlimit: I don't see much of a reason to make small ships faster in hyperspace. It may overly encourage large vessels, but small ships are already easier to stealth, so there's no reason to also make them quicker without a bonus. How much faster does a 3 point ship move than a 100 pointer? How slow would a fleet of big guns move? Keep 'em all quick.
The idea is that smaller ships are easier to use for patrols, maintaining trade lanes, interception duties, etc. These tasks are ones usually applied to smaller ships. I honestly don't care either way, but it's something that needs to be considered as it does seriously affect strategic level combat.
Stealth/EW/ECW: I say we merge these. EW and ECW, in space, are essentially jamming/spoofing/detection based techs, and that boils down to stealthing a target against radar used both in finding you and in shooting at you. Plus, it also makes stealth less retarded--no invisible Klingon Warbirds sneaking around, and no partially invisible ones either, since we're not making it an On/Off cloaking switch anymore.
Again, this is the difference between an ambush and the fog of war. ECM does not in ANY way help in an ambush except AFTER the trap has been sprung. ECM is kicking dust in your opponent's eyes, screaming loudly, and otherwise blinding your opponent and preventing them from applying force appropriately. Stealth is moving into position covertly. EW is in itself already on the edge of too much in one place to be honest. We could, in theory, break it into Sensors, Stealth, ECM, and ECCM, but that crosses the line on complexity. I'd rather lump all EW together and keep stealth seperate as it makes more sense in-game to have a jamming ship that doesn't have super-stealth tech. Again, this is about making a list of abilities that do specific jobs. Stealth is not perfect, it can't be, but the idea is that it can work. Again, STEALTH IS NOT CLOAK. You don't EVER become invisible. Stealth +10 does not make it so you can fly up to an enemy ship and dump waste on it, from 2m away without being detected.
Everyone would have a basic level of ECW/EW on every ship that would make our modern equipment squeal for mercy, but every ship should have a basic level of everything, so only people with advanced stealth or advanced counter-stealth technologies should need to put points into EW/ECW. That also saves us from having to count up every ECW package on both fleets, compute who has the superior screening, what that means, and apply a bonus besides the obvious ones.
I see where it's coming from on this, but I'm having trouble justifying it because of the severe differences between the uses of Stealth and ECM.
Academia Nut
Agree on ship scaling. Also add that players cannot make ships larger than 100 points. Ship scales could work as follows:
-Escort: 1-15 points
-Cruiser: 16-30 points
-Capital: 31-60 points
-Heavy Capital: 61-100
-Superheavy Capital: 101+
-Interdiction: Agreed
-EW: Agreed
-Planetary Assault: Um...what? How would this work? What is the point? We use ground forces for this. Planetary Bombardment already gives improved orbital fire support, and the flat 10% you mention later makes no sense.
-Planetary Bombardment: Maybe, see later discussion on such.
PD: Agreed
Anti-Capship: Agreed, but this is more about overpowering weapon arrays, more space allocated to guns, etc. Range really doesn't matter overly much, as we don't model range into space combat because it's a level of complexity that doesn't really add much to the game. Remember, this can be used to include missiles, fighters, etc., not just direct fire cannons.
Improved Engines: I assume this means FTL boost, because this is an ambiguous name and suggests an increase in STL speed as well.
One possible way we can reorganize these is as follows:
-Active Defense (ECM/Point Defense): Defends against Anti-Capship, can jam Sensors/Comm
-Sensors/Communication: C3 and stealth detection
-Interdiction: Same as above, keeps enemies in the fight longer.
-Improved FTL: Better FTL speed and improved resistance to Interdiction
-Anti-Capship: ECCM/improved missiles/fighters/whatever.
-Stealth: Covert movement/positioning, better able to set traps
The less ships can support troops, the better. When ships enter into combat on planets, lots of shit dies, and infrastructure is damaged, end of story. I don't think it's a good idea to make it so a ship can support from space and just pick off all of the defenders without consequence.
As far as the effects of stealth, that's both a bit above and below what I had in mind. Any ship can broadcast a bogus IFF with the right prep work ahead of time, and we should NOT have perfect cloak, even with Imperial tech, because perfect cloak is broken. 41%-70% is the range I had in mind.
Upkeep at 10% is a start, and it may well be good enough, but I may say go as high as 20%, with 30-40% for Imperial tech. I'd say that a fleet of 1.5-2 times the starting fleet should be the maximum a nation could sustain without grabbing more resources, while coming back to starting strength is relatively easy. Mothballing is a good idea, though I might make it a flat cost to reactivate them just to keep things simple.
Industry: Minimum should be MUCH higher. Again, these worlds were almost all part of a large empire that relied on its colonies to sustain itself. It would build things up as much as possible. No world should have less than 80% of it's maximum.
Aptitudes:
-Improved Industry: No. Christ no. EVERYONE will take this and anyone who doesn't is a moron. Again, anything that encourages turtling is not a good idea.
-Ground Combat: Yes.
-Sensor Nets: Early Warning Networks, yes. Used to track ships in or near your space, or to get general trends of traffic from nearby star nations. More likely to detect stealth, yes.
-Improved Stealth: No. This goes DIRECTLY to the idea that globals should NEVER intersect with ship bonuses.
-Improved Raiding: Let's put this on hold until we work out an actual raiding mechanic first. We should make it so raiding or pirating is less effective than taking the planet, because it's a LOT easier. What worries me about this bonus is that raiding will become preferable to capturing because it's so much easier, lower risk, and with this bonus, better pound for pound.
-Improved Comms: A good start, but there should be a cap for realtime comms.
-Improved Logistics: Boosts might be too low. Boost for repair is fine, boost for upkeep is not a good idea. This bonus goes from "gosh, this is nice, I can bounce back faster" into "look, I can sustain a larger fleet than other people."
The other problem is that you're pulling from a huge universal pool, so there's virtually no reason to have any negatives. Lose a few frigates here and there and, hey, be awesome. Make the aptitudes set at the beginning and keep them that way, and have them pull from a limited aptitude pool early on and then that's it. Say, 100-400 points to play with, and if you wanted more, you have to take some penalties to other things.
Combat:
Knocking out defenses for a system shouldn't hurt the industry. Especially given the fact that defenses are essentially ships without engines and such. Save industry raping for ground combat. You can win the ground combat faster if you use orbital bombardment, but you blow up facilities.
Space combat should last in the realm of hours, ground combat should last in terms of days to weeks. Nice as it would be to say that we should do more realistic timeframes, it's not going to work well for the purposes of this game.
Raiding, as it is stated, seems far too powerful and not connected with the reality of the game. Again, 2,000-6,000 point fleets are common, even as raiding forces. Unless you've got a 10,000 point planet, that doesn't work. Meanwhile, you've totally denied that system to your enemy and you've made off with all their resources (plus bonus resources from any raiding boost), all without risking an extended battle on the ground. Control of the colony won't mean shit if it takes 40 points to replace the 40 points you've lost.
I mean, seriously, as stated, raiding can RAPE an entire nation's production in one turn, while giving all the resources to an enemy.
Raiding, frankly, should be the realm of pirates. You hit trade lanes and make out with small fractions of a total production. Something that's so low-risk should have an equally low reward.
Additionally, there should be no reward for scorched earth other than totally denying an enemy access to resources. That alone is enough from a strategic point of view.