Something big

[Weedle McHairybug]

On screen he was straffing the superstructure of the SSD, got nicked and spun out of control to the bridge.

He was also screaming in a decidedly non kamikazi way as well.

Guys, fractalsponge stated to drop the bit about how the Executor was taken down, especially regarding shields. Do it on another thread if you really wish to discuss it.

[MKSheppard]

I did some checking of my own notes, and it appears that:

The USN from Fiscal Year 1891 to Fiscal Year 1917 had a new battleship class authorized on average of every 1.36 years, with the longest interval between classes being three years.

Then they took a nearly twenty year building holiday from BBs due to the Washington Naval Treaty. When building battleships resumed in Fiscal Year 1937 and continued to Fiscal Year 1941, a new battleship class was authorized on average of every 1.33 years, with the longest interval between classes being two years.

So if we take for example, the Imperator-I as the "baseline" circa ANH, then by the time of the Battle of Hoth (ESB), some three years after ANH; it's more than enough time for an "improved class" design to enter service (the Imperator-II design).

Since the Battle of Endor is four years after ANH, it makes sense that by the time of the beginning of the Imperial Collapse; that the true successor to the Imperator class had been designed -- likely something slightly bigger (10-15% bigger) and utilizing wartime experience in battles with Rebels (maybe slightly larger TIE fighter complement of 1.5 wings (108 starfighters instead of 72?).

Likewise, the medium capital ships like large/heavy/light cruisers operated on a similar basis in the USN; with a new class being authorized on average every 1.58 years from FY 1926 to FY 1945.

However, because of the multitude of types and various cleanups being done; on average, a new cruiser design (or more) was being done every year.

For example, in Fiscal Year 1943, the Fargo Class CLs (Modified Clevelands), Juneau CLAAs (Modified Atlantas), Oregon City CAs (Modified Baltimores), and the Des Moines class CAs (All New) were put forth.

With the small boys, the USN standardized on basically two and a half types of destroyers, Fletcher (FY1941) and Allen M Sumner (FY1943) and then stretched the Sumner by 14 feet (4.3m) to make the Gearing Class (FY1943), as well as finishing out any previous pre-war destroyer orders.

The one region where the USN went crazy was the Escort Carriers and Destroyer Escort spam, with six different Destroyer Escort designs and six different CVE designs.

This was because of production limitations.

One class of Destroyer Escorts had GM Diesels with reduction gears (GMT), another class with a Steam-Turbo Electric Drive (TE), another with a Diesel-Electric Drive (DET), a class that used Submarine Diesels with reduction gears (FMR), another with geared steam turbines (WGT), and finally one with Steam Turbo Electric Drive and 5" guns instead of 3" guns, hence (TEV, with V for 5-inch).

This was because there were only so many machinery sets capable of being produced each year for ships of that size; and rather than accept less ships, power plants were changed as necessary to get the production numbers needed.

With the Star Destroyer type, I can foresee the Empire standardizing on a somewhat common set of tactical specifications, similar to how the USN built the Standard-Type Battleship from 1916 to 1923 across five different but very closely related classes.

A big reason for doing this would be so that Star Destroyers assigned to one sector can reinforce another sector halfway across the galaxy without the at-point commanders worrying "is it powerful enough?" or "can it move fast enough to keep up in fleet manouvers?".

You'd probably see a large majority of "Star Destroyers" come from the "canonical" Republic and Imperial types built by the "Big Primes", such as:

Kuat Drive Yards (KDY)
Sienar Fleet Systems (SFS)
Corellian Engineering Corporation (CEC)
Rendili StarDrive (RSD)

And then you'd have the "one-off" classes built by smaller local combines which would differ from the 'canonical' specifications, such as being 1520m long instead of 1600m, because of shipyard dock limitations and lacking a turbolaser turret or two; and being seen as "close enough" to operate in fleet actions with the 'canonical' ships.

The only way you'd be able to tell them apart would be to start rivet counting like a nerd -- "oh that ship has twenty two Taim and Bak Mark V turrets instead of the twenty four called for by the spec!"

The biggest variety in ships would come at the medium to light ship levels, due to the commerce raiding made possible by the Hyperdrive forcing the heavy garrisoning of the entire galaxy; plus local politicans and Moffs screaming for protection from the Invincible Rebel Snubfighter Swarm [TM] following the shock of the Battle of Yavin, where X-Wings are imbued by mystical properties by very scared HoloNet Commentators.

At this scale, "acceptable" is kind of a dirty word, because a 250m frigate or corvette produced for system or local cluster patrol duty is honestly just as good as the official specification for a light frigate some 350m long.

There are also other political implications in play besides simple "we can't build this because our deep docks are only so big."

For example, Sienar Fleet Systems (SFS) seems to have a decent medium warship design division, with the Vindicator Cruiser and it's stablemate the Immobilizer 418 being nice 600m long dagger warships to fill the ranks.

But...Sienar Fleet Systems is also the prime contractor for a lot of small craft:

Lambda-class T-4a Shuttles
Sentinel Class Shuttles
TIE Starfighter Family
Skipray Blastboat Family

In keeping with the "World War II" theme, it's presumable to think that following the shock of Yavin and the loss of the Death Star to 30~ small one-man snubfighters; Palapatine called for the immediate implementation of the
Sheev Palpatine Starfighter Programme (aka Adolf Hitler Panzerprogramm) to produce 1 million starfighters by next galactic year.

And suddenly, Sienar can't meet delivery schedules for previously contracted Vindicators and Immobilizer-418s due to all available fab/dock space being diverted to the Sheev Palpatine Starfighter Programme.

Yet, the Interdictor-418 program is vital to guarding hyperspace lanes from Rebel Snubfighter Ambushes, so alternatives have to be found, such as taking battle-damaged or under construction Imperial type Star Destroyers in the dockyards and converting them into extremely large Interdictors to meet fleet numbers.

That, or converting older obsolete Republic Type Star Destroyers, such as the Venator class into Interdictors.

....and this is what happens when I start reading fractalsponge's art thread

[The_Saint]

This^^

It also gels nicely with some of the book ship descriptions where a 'standard' design has been 'refit' and characters respond "Hey that's nifty" but no one seems to worry that the ship has been modified "too much" or the relevance of the design choices.
I'm thinking mostly of the Rogue Squadron books where Corellian Corvettes and Lambda shuttles have been extensively modified from baseline-standard and no one is really batting an eyelid.

[fractalsponge1]

I have my old notes for Republic Venator conversions:

Venator
Fast, energy dense, but tightly designed. Tactically outdated with exposed hangar bay, heavier guns (see ISDI to ISDII transition).

Venator II variant:
Long-range escort conversion. Replace twin 70s with quadruple 40 barbettes. Twin trench guns removed. Strategic tubes removed. Dorsal hangar doors removed. Hull slope extended to meet at centerline. Forward dorsal-launching bays converted to fuel tank. Central ventral hangar and surrounding docking and launching areas retained. Carriage now one wing of fighters (down from 5+), 2xregiments of troops (vs division) with ship-to-ship transport complement. Updated sensors to modern ISDII configuration (enclosed domes, secutor bridge modules) - superstructure extension to mount linear array (similar to secutor aft deckhousing).

Venator III variant:
General purpose modernized fleet combatant. Identical to Venator II changes except forward bay no longer all fuel tank. Highly subdivided area to mount a single interdiction dome, remainder extra fuel space, auxiliary small reactors. Power feed for heavy trench guns goes to interdictor. Wing of fighters, 2x regiments as in Venator II.

[Abacus]

I have my old notes for Republic Venator conversions:

Venator
Fast, energy dense, but tightly designed. Tactically outdated with exposed hangar bay, heavier guns (see ISDI to ISDII transition).

Venator II variant:
Long-range escort conversion. Replace twin 70s with quadruple 40 barbettes. Twin trench guns removed. Strategic tubes removed. Dorsal hangar doors removed. Hull slope extended to meet at centerline. Forward dorsal-launching bays converted to fuel tank. Central ventral hangar and surrounding docking and launching areas retained. Carriage now one wing of fighters (down from 5+), 2xregiments of troops (vs division) with ship-to-ship transport complement. Updated sensors to modern ISDII configuration (enclosed domes, secutor bridge modules) - superstructure extension to mount linear array (similar to secutor aft deckhousing).

Venator III variant:
General purpose modernized fleet combatant. Identical to Venator II changes except forward bay no longer all fuel tank. Highly subdivided area to mount a single interdiction dome, remainder extra fuel space, auxiliary small reactors. Power feed for heavy trench guns goes to interdictor. Wing of fighters, 2x regiments as in Venator II.

Would love to see you make these.

[23 November 1939]

I have my old notes for Republic Venator conversions:

Venator
[Snip]

Venator II variant:
[Snip]

Venator III variant:
[Snip]

Would love to see you make these.

Ibid, for what little it is worth. Venator II sounds especially fascinating, something approaching Eleventh Century Remnant's DDX-14's in function, if not in detail.

[MKSheppard]

The thing is, for a Galactic military to work; there has to be ruthless standardization in order for the Empire's warships to actually spend time out on patrol, instead of constantly in spacedock waiting for a unique spare part that was only produced to the tune of 1,000 and the other 951 spares already got used up, and fifty other ships ahead of it already claimed their own spares...

(order of magnitude I'm using for spare part #s is deliberately small to make it comprehensible to us, it's probably much bigger in the SW Galaxy).

The Logistics issue is probably helped by there being a few "Big Prime" component OEM manufacturers in the SW Galaxy.

According to the old fluff (no idea if it's still canon), Koensayr was a big manufacturer of various power couplings/converters, etc in addition to their own small line of original starfighter designs (Y-Wing). So chances are a Koensayr power system is installed somewhere on every ship in the galaxy.

Essentially, ships within a type should look pretty much the same; which makes for a very "boring" visual directory; which may be why the Nebulon B Frigate seems to be so "popular" fanwise as it's much more distinctive than "LOOK, A WEDGE SHAPED SHIP, BUT IT'S 300M INSTEAD OF 1600M!"

[Lord Revan]

The thing is, for a Galactic military to work; there has to be ruthless standardization in order for the Empire's warships to actually spend time out on patrol, instead of constantly in spacedock waiting for a unique spare part that was only produced to the tune of 1,000 and the other 951 spares already got used up, and fifty other ships ahead of it already claimed their own spares...

(order of magnitude I'm using for spare part #s is deliberately small to make it comprehensible to us, it's probably much bigger in the SW Galaxy).

The Logistics issue is probably helped by there being a few "Big Prime" component OEM manufacturers in the SW Galaxy.

According to the old fluff (no idea if it's still canon), Koensayr was a big manufacturer of various power couplings/converters, etc in addition to their own small line of original starfighter designs (Y-Wing). So chances are a Koensayr power system is installed somewhere on every ship in the galaxy.

Essentially, ships within a type should look pretty much the same; which makes for a very "boring" visual directory; which may be why the Nebulon B Frigate seems to be so "popular" fanwise as it's much more distinctive than "LOOK, A WEDGE SHAPED SHIP, BUT IT'S 300M INSTEAD OF 1600M!"

I wouldn't be surprised if ships as different looking externally as the Imperial Star Destroyer and the Mol Cal cruiser (of any type) still share a lot of internal components, hell I wouldn't be surprised if even during the Old Republic a lot of important components for starships were effectively standardizied simply due to it making sense, even if there wasn't actual ruling from the senate making the standard official.

[MKSheppard]

Re: Star Destroyer, Star Cruiser, Star Dreadnought etc;

It's worth noting in the old WEG prior-canon Imperial Sourcebook, 2nd Ed:

A Star Destroyer is considered a line in itself. A naval staff study concluded that a Star Destroyer was the equivalent of at least the squadrons of the time, and would be more properly categorized as such. The Admiralty agreed with the analysis, but disagreed with the conclusion. The Admiralty felt that as there were more lines than squadrons, designating the Star Destroyer as a line unit would get them more Star Destroyers. The Admiralty’s thinking prevailed.

WEG defined a Line as being from 1 to 20 ships, with the theoretical standard being 4 ships; and Squadrons were from 14 to 60 ships and typically the biggest force assigned to a single system.

And in the new canon, you see the following ships all rating the "Star Destroyer" name; over a wide size range:

Victory SD--: 900m (mentioned in Tarkin, but no official specs yet)
Venator SD--: 1155m (Clone Wars)
Imperial SD-: 1600m (OT Trilogy)
Secutor SD--: 2200m (mentioned in Tarkin, but no official specs yet)

So it could be that the name "Star Destroyer" in the SW galaxy is kind of like the wet-navy term "dreadnought" that was applied to a whole range of ships in @ OTL Earth.

Best thing I could come up with to stay within the SW Canon was: "capital ship design capable of taking on and defeating an entire squadron of typical in-system ships from the time period of construction (PS: It may or may not look like a wedge shaped ship), which would explain the slow escalation of "Star Destroyer" sizes from the 900 to 1150m of the Clone Wars era to the 1600 to 2200m of the late Imperial Period; as larger and more capable frigates and picket ships are built and distributed across the Galaxy, it forces an escalatory chain in the Naval Design Bureaux.

Star Cruisers could be termed something similar to the US Navy's Alaska Class Large Cruisers (CBs) or the Dutch Design 1047 battlecruisers. Something designed to take on maybe 2 or 3 of the equivalent "Star Destroyer" design from the period of construction.

It could very well be that they just don't fit neatly into the tactical doctrine of the various organized navies of Star Wars (Republic and Imperial), so you don't see Star Cruisers that often; with most of them being constructed as "Tech Demos" by KDY or CEC:

"Look at what we can do, Mr Grand Moff! Order 500 more Star Destroyers from us, plox!"

In order to keep design teams busy and explore possible advancements in technology outside of large scale production, along with limited one or two off production as flagships for local government groupings (a job market significantly reduced since the rise of the Imperial Navy following the Clone Wars -- apparently the Imperial Navy absorbed most of the smaller local navies).

Star Dreadnoughts: The name started to be thrown around apparently from 2002 to 2004 in some related Star Wars Incredible Cross Section Publications and it started to displace the older term Super Star Destroyer, which I approve of. It just feels more right than attaching "Super" to everything; though the term "super-x" was used IRL to refer to "super-dreadnoughts", ships with 13 or 15 inch guns versus the original 12 inch of the Dreadnought.

We don't see that many of them in much of the Original Trilogy (Executor is the sole onscreen example), and throughout the new canon, there are scattered hints of them:

• Rogue One Rebel Dossier, where Dodonna mentions that (paraphrased): "a capital ship would have to be at least the size of the Mandator-class to supply power for a planet-killing superlaser."
• Star Wars: Complete Locations says more than a dozen Executor Class were constructed.
• Marvel Darth Vader Comic has an Executor class ship named Annihilator.
• Aftermath Life Debt says thirteen Executor class ships were in service by the time of Endor.
• Aftermath Life Debt has an Executor class ship named Arbitrator.
• Aftermath Life Debt has an Executor class ship named Eclipse as Palpatine's Personal Command Ship.
• Episode 7: The Force Awakens has an Executor class ship named Ravager as wreckage on Jakku.

It appears from the relatively low numbers that there may be only 50 to 100 Star Dreadnoughts actually in service across the Galaxy; if we take into account the Clone Wars Generation of Star Dreadnoughts built as Command Ships (and being replaced with the Executor Class) and various one-offs built like the Mandators -- in the old Canon, they were 8 km long with severely restricted hyperdrives built for KDY System Defense in Kuat.

From the old fluff (since superceded), the Executors were more of a heavily armed support ship that could move with the fleet into combat zones and contribute decently enough to any naval operation currently underway in addition to their "command ship status".

I put quotes around "command ship status", because in World War II, the US Navy's CNO-COMINCH HQ under Admiral King had 312 officers and 313 enlisted for a total of 625 men on 1 June 1945 to deal with a global war.

Given that the stated complement of an ISD is given canonically in Aftermath Life Debt as:

“At the Empire’s peak, a Star Destroyer played host to around forty thousand crew,”

Adding an extra 600~ men to a Star Destroyer to host the Admiral's staff can be easily accomodated through two methods:

• New-Build: Add a few decks to the bridge tower and a deck or two to the main "city" portion of the hull.
• Conversion: Remove some high end weaponry, relocate some crew into the space freed up by the old weapons and put the Admiral's staff into the now-vacant space.

Plus, there's the whole droid thing; as droids are surprisingly semi-sentinent in SW, and a lot of low level staffing tasks could be pushed onto droids. "2B-S5, calculate supply consumption of the fleet at current rates."

So, you don't need the vast crew size of the Executor to run a fleet; which Aftermath Life Debt gives as:

The Executor was lost that day, plunging into the surface of the Death Star. Taking hundreds of thousands of the best Imperials with it.

Despite that line of thought, I'm sure that there have been one-off ships devoted entirely to ship to ship combat in the "Star Dreadnought" scale. It's just that those ships can only be in one place at any one time; while the same equivalent of Star Destroyers in firepower can be many places elsewhere at a time; and thanks to the HoloNet and hyperdrive, can quickly mass to the density needed for heavy fleet forcing actions.

There's also another reason why eye-bogglingly big ships may not be prevalent in Star Wars, despite the rule of cube scaling in regards to volume, surface area and mass.

I first proposed this theory back in Spring 2016:

Hyperdrives may have an exponental function in play related to craft mass and the power needed to "push" it through hyperspace.

Over the 25,000 years that hyperdrives have been in existence in the SW Galaxy, this exponential function could have been steadily pushed rightwards, but it still remains a pretty steep barrier -- the Empire doesn't have infinite money to spend -- which raises the amusing idea that the power needed to push the Death Star(s) through hyperspace might have been more power-consuming than actually firing the big gun at full power.

This limitation does go a long way towards explaining why everyone in ANH was befuddled by the appearance of the Death Star -- "that's no moon!", because in a galaxy that long settled (thousands of years of galactic society), surely someone would have built a battle-moon/planetoid before.

This theory could also explain why smaller small craft like the Millennium Falcon are economical enough to be used as general trash haulers, instead of everything concentrating on gigantic kilometers long ships that do nothing but push cargo around in giant shipping containers.

[fractalsponge1]

I don't buy the hyperspace cost thing, not completely. Certainly I don't think the scaling is a purely linear relationship, but large craft are implied if nothing else by traffic density. Coruscant was not choked by small craft which it would have to be if things like the Falcon are routinely used for general haulage all across the destination size scale. I think the small freighters are the equivalent of couriers. The Falcon might actually be a container tug as well, but just typically used by Solo as the base craft - I've always liked this concept:



I quite agree on the component standardization though. Things like armor and structural material must be quite distributed in manufacture, which would easily explain many different basic hull forms (steel is cheap and air is free). However complex structures and components are likely highly shared within warship generations. There's a reason all my designs share component features.

[MKSheppard]

However complex structures and components are likely highly shared within warship generations. There's a reason all my designs share component features.

GRAEPHS on air conditioning for USN Warships

I'll really summarize for you:

The US Navy's ventilation fans were largely designed in the 1940s and haven't changed much in 60 years, with the exception of fans invented in the 1980s to deal with the higher pressure ventilation needed for collective protection systems. The first generation of CPS fans were pretty noisy and inefficient. It wasn't until LPD-17 began to be constructed in 2000, that they actually went to second generation of CPS fans.

For the actual air conditioning coolers themselves, the US Navy has a series of coil designs designated like such with

Series 40 (1960s)
Series 50 (No date given but it seems plausible to say 1970s)
Series 60 (Late 1980s - Early 1990s)

Guess what? The Navy's use of the coils is all over the place.

CVN-77 (George HW Bush) laid down in 2003 uses the Series 40 coils from the 1960s
The entire DDG-51 run (1980s to 2000s) uses the Series 50 from 1970s.

The very first class of ships in the USN to use the Series 60 is the LPD-17, which was laid down in 2000.



Can you imagine this in the Imperial Navy?

[fractalsponge1]

Ugh that'd be awful for a galactic Navy if not under control. But I'm not sure which would win out over time - totalitarian government or independent multistellar corporations/states that have their own internal standards for everything. Imagine KDY and CEC using hexagonal vs octagonal bolts...

[MKSheppard]

Imagine KDY and CEC using hexagonal vs octagonal bolts...

I can't find a cite for it, but I seem to recall the Imperial Japanese Army and Imperial Japanese navy used incompatible fastener systems; basically one service used left hand screws, while the other used right hand screws. No cite, but...it sounds so...Japanese.

[Weedle McHairybug]

Ugh that'd be awful for a galactic Navy if not under control. But I'm not sure which would win out over time - totalitarian government or independent multistellar corporations/states that have their own internal standards for everything. Imagine KDY and CEC using hexagonal vs octagonal bolts...

Well, to be fair, even the Empire has had its variant designs, if some comic panels and other materials are anything to go by, heck even some of your works (eg, the Compellor and Impellor), which would require differing components to some degree. Besides, as MKSheppard pointed out, the Imperial Japanese Navy had varying bolt types, and that was pretty close to totalitarian in its operation nature.

So far as which would win out over time, to be honest, right now I'm having quite a bit of difficulty seeing exactly HOW the Empire was totalitarian. Yes, it had a massive military, yes, the Emperor's word is law, among others. But on the other hand, there was at least one case of the Empire actually let a planet have its own guns to defend itself, indicating the Empire were also pro-Second Amendment, which is largely anathema to totalitarian regimes (if anything, getting rid of guns from the general populace is one of the first things in a totalitarian regime). And besides which, considering Vader and Palpatine were explicitly force users (not to mention one of their intelligence agencies, the Inquisitorious, were explicitly composed of Force users), and probably among the most powerful of their kind during that time, had they truly been totalitarian, there wouldn't even BE a rebellion at all, especially when, due to their evident force abilities, they'd probably completely take away various individuals' free will via the Force (sure, maybe the Hutts and Toydarians would be immune, but they'd use other elements to sway them to their side). When I think of truly totalitarian regimes, I generally think along the lines of, say, the Machines from the Matrix trilogy, or the Patriots from Metal Gear Solid 2 and Metal Gear Solid 4, where they literally manipulated everyone.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Soviets were totalitarian but the products of their various byzantine-ly competing design bureaus also lacked standardization...

[Sea Skimmer]

I can't find a cite for it, but I seem to recall the Imperial Japanese Army and Imperial Japanese navy used incompatible fastener systems; basically one service used left hand screws, while the other used right hand screws. No cite, but...it sounds so...Japanese.

The entire Japanese metal working industry was non standard is the actual answer. Left and right differences, HA. Completely non standards threads! Every corporation did whatever it wanted. In America that stuff got established jointly by large industrial writing associations, which is something that has begun booming in the 1860s and kept going ever since. Japan didn't have anything comparable, and its totalitarian governments existence was rather contrary to developing it. Japan boomed postwar because suddenly that went out the window.

The Empire seems to have more or less complete mastery of welding, and they may well fabricate a lot of spare parts on site with 3D printing and droid operated machine shops. They would definitely want to impose uniform standards, but they'd almost certainly have to leave some leeway. Also if items are very high production it may make sense to let them be 100% custom designs, because the long term cost saving could be considerable. Common parts are not better if they cost a lot more or are underdesigned for a job. That's caused problems before, and anything the Empire needs it needs millions of.

[Adam Reynolds]

I don't buy the hyperspace cost thing, not completely. Certainly I don't think the scaling is a purely linear relationship, but large craft are implied if nothing else by traffic density. Coruscant was not choked by small craft which it would have to be if things like the Falcon are routinely used for general haulage all across the destination size scale. I think the small freighters are the equivalent of couriers. The Falcon might actually be a container tug as well, but just typically used by Solo as the base craft - I've always liked this concept:

Another possibility is that there is less trade than there appears in the galaxy. Light freighters are used to haul people and rare goods that can be sold for a profit, legally or otherwise. The majority of products are likely produced somewhat locally, which does appear to be the case overall.

The Trade Federation being so badly hurt by taxation that they resort to a blockade and invasion is also consistent with their ships being on the edge of profit margins. 3km TF transports/battleships might be the upper limit for what is reasonably profitable after accounting for fuel costs.

While I had previously argued it wasn't the case, having now watched all of Rebels, fuel is a serious concern for Phoenix Squadron. Several episodes in the second season are about hunting for fuel, though this seems to have been alleviated with their development of a base.

Over the 25,000 years that hyperdrives have been in existence in the SW Galaxy, this exponential function could have been steadily pushed rightwards, but it still remains a pretty steep barrier -- the Empire doesn't have infinite money to spend -- which raises the amusing idea that the power needed to push the Death Star(s) through hyperspace might have been more power-consuming than actually firing the big gun at full power.

That doesn't fit the fact that the limiting factor in building the Death Star seems to have been the superlaser, with kyber crystals making it more efficient. It also doesn't fit the one reactor ignitions they were using during Rogue One in which hyperspace was also used just as often as the superlaser.

[fractalsponge1]

Another possibility is that there is less trade than there appears in the galaxy. Light freighters are used to haul people and rare goods that can be sold for a profit, legally or otherwise. The majority of products are likely produced somewhat locally, which does appear to be the case overall.

The Trade Federation being so badly hurt by taxation that they resort to a blockade and invasion is also consistent with their ships being on the edge of profit margins. 3km TF transports/battleships might be the upper limit for what is reasonably profitable after accounting for fuel costs.

Until we see substantial on-site food production for city worlds, I won't buy that there isn't a substantial volume of interstellar trade, in foodstuffs and raw materials at the very least. I could buy local production of most common goods, but fuel, feedstock, and supplies for local populations need to come from somewhere. If city worlds are typically unable to feed their own enormous populations from local sources, this suggests that mass warfare in the Core is either very casualty heavy or very fluid - city worlds would be either declared free cities/planets or surrender very quickly if relief is not immediately forthcoming in the event of a siege.

As for the TF, it seems as likely as not that their 3km ships are the economic equivalent of tramps - easily pulled off of minor trade routes without crashing major economies. Certainly the way Lucrehulks are loaded suggests that they aren't the bulk transport ships of the SW universe - perhaps the equivalent of LASH ships. They certainly cannot handle bulk liquid/gas transport efficiently. Bulk container transport like FSCVs and their tanker equivalents would continue the basic trunk trades, allowing the TF to make a statement without drawing real ire (like Kuat or Corellia landing on them with Star Dreadnoughts).

[Shroom Man 777]

Would it be alright to imagine... an enlarged dedicated cargo-carrier in the general... shape of the Lucrehulk? Where the central droid control and command sphere was instead replaced with a massive cargo-carrying sphere proportionately larger than the sphere of the original Lucrehulk? With the... hemi-ring around the cargoship smaller, or skinnier, for more... partial defense purposes rather than the relatively heavy duty shielding and defense duties of the real Lucrehulk?

Cause I imagine the Lucrehulk's capability to deploy the sphere, even have it land and launch from planets, would be handy for cargo modules. Imagine Trade Federation cargo ships hauling all these supply spheroids! Or cargo cubes! Or cargo pyramids (that might make it appear like a Goa'uld ship!)! Geometric central cargo modules.

[Sea Skimmer]

Until we see substantial on-site food production for city worlds, I won't buy that there isn't a substantial volume of interstellar trade, in foodstuffs and raw materials at the very least. I could buy local production of most common goods, but fuel, feedstock, and supplies for local populations need to come from somewhere. If city worlds are typically unable to feed their own enormous populations from local sources, this suggests that mass warfare in the Core is either very casualty heavy or very fluid - city worlds would be either declared free cities/planets or surrender very quickly if relief is not immediately forthcoming in the event of a siege.

The normal result is yeah, probably a surrender after some resistance like the Siege of Paris. No point normally exists to full scale invasions because you could starve out the planet long before an invasion got anywhere. The problem then though becomes like what Sparta faced when it forced Athens to surrender by blockade, how do you enforce the damn peace treaty terms on someone who doesn't feel they lost?

A lot of resources could come from a local solar system though, like if you turned a moon into 800 levels of parking garage like hydroponics garden with low gravity to literally reduce your energy costs pumping water around you could make a damn lot of food. Agriculture on the surface of habitable planets has limited value vs a city planet's needs, the surface area isn't that much! Bulk minerals definitely need to be shipped in. On a city planet even orbital blast furnace slag would be valuable for making concrete since you've got nowhere else to get bulk mass from.

As for the TF, it seems as likely as not that their 3km ships are the economic equivalent of tramps - easily pulled off of minor trade routes without crashing major economies.

Yeah something like a Walmart and a Tramp in one, and operated according to local economic demand as aggressively as that can be pushed. For bulk materials containers start to make a huge amount of sense, because then you aren't wasting time pumping absurd tonnages in and out of your hull while you sit around waiting. We don't do this in real life because it wouldn't work, but in space you can just park stuff in orbit. Though its unclear is hyperspace travel requires any real structural stresses or not, which would affect the mass and possible landing weight penalty for the container.

[Rhadamantus]

Is there an Order of Battle for Fractal's ships somewhere?

[fractalsponge1]

Yeah I imagine mass is limiting for agriculture, not energy. Even if it's just solar, a city world can dedicated millions of square kilometers to panel areas with presumably much more efficient panels compared to RL examples. But no closed loop system is perfectly efficient, so there needs to be bulk shipments from somewhere. And off-world in the same system may not even count, if the blockade is enforced sufficiently well to interdict anything outside of the planetary shields.

The shields themselves would also need to be fed, so an additional problem for the defenders. Balance of which gives out first, shield power or (really) local food?

[fractalsponge1]

Is there an Order of Battle for Fractal's ships somewhere?

I'm working on a combined profile orthographic but I keep adding more damn ships so it's never quite done. I'll post something probably after NYD.

[Galvatron]

For the record, I really hate that artstation ship. Take it away please.

In case you want to see more, here's the artist's web site...

http://www.makk-art.com

[Shroom Man 777]

Has fractal/ansel fractalnsel designed Rebel/non-Imperial SW warships?