Something big

[fractalsponge1]

Fair point, but the MC90 is supposed to also carry a wing of 72 starfighters, and those are more voluminous than TIEs (and we haven't seen any compact rack system for handling them). Supposedly also regimental-scale troop complement (this is from wookiepedia, and I assume from new essential guide). An ISD carries <10k troops, 37k crew. AT-ATs take up a pretty large chunk of space, but eyeballing from the cross sections the entire hangar/troop bay area seems to be around the size of the bridge tower. Cut that off and it looks like the remainder of the hull is still bigger than a 1.25km MC90 (with its own hangars). This I can't verify though, maybe evillejedi can do some measurements from his warlords models.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Fair point, but the MC90 is supposed to also carry a wing of 72 starfighters, and those are more voluminous than TIEs (and we haven't seen any compact rack system for handling them). Supposedly also regimental-scale troop complement (this is from wookiepedia, and I assume from new essential guide). An ISD carries <10k troops, 37k crew. AT-ATs take up a pretty large chunk of space, but eyeballing from the cross sections the entire hangar/troop bay area seems to be around the size of the bridge tower. Cut that off and it looks like the remainder of the hull is still bigger than a 1.25km MC90 (with its own hangars). This I can't verify though, maybe evillejedi can do some measurements from his warlords models.

Well, even an ISD has a fair number of auxiliary hangers. Some of which are service hangers, or hangers just so in case the main hanger has been occupied.

The same wookiepedia page does list the ship as carrying 1700 troops though. And I might point out that MC90s typically carry 2 years of supplies, versus 5-6 years on an ISD.

[fractalsponge1]

ISD has 2 hangar openings, to my knowledge, and I'm including the entire area in terms of internal volume occupied. I can't imagine the MC90 dedicates any less internal space to the operation of 72 fighters, if they routinely handle XWs and BWs, which are not exactly small compared to TIE/ln or /I. It probably doesn't have facilities for AT-ATs, though.

Supplies should be trivial volume-wise. Well, at least they are invisible on the resolution of the cross-sections. But then again, the Devastator ICS doesn't show the fuel tanks either.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

ISD has 2 hangar openings, to my knowledge, and I'm including the entire area in terms of internal volume occupied. I can't imagine the MC90 dedicates any less internal space to the operation of 72 fighters, if they routinely handle XWs and BWs, which are not exactly small compared to TIE/ln or /I. It probably doesn't have facilities for AT-ATs, though.

Supplies should be trivial volume-wise. Well, at least they are invisible on the resolution of the cross-sections. But then again, the Devastator ICS doesn't show the fuel tanks either.

Well, we have observed on other instances that there are hangers at the side. For example, back in the TIE Fighter Maarek Steele chronicles, Steele flew a fighter out of a service hanger either on the starboard or port side.

[fractalsponge1]

Really? I don't suppose you can find a scan of that? I'm genuinely curious; haven't seen any sources about a flank hangar for an ISD. Was it obviously a variant destroyer, or did it correspond to any of the details on the model?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Really? I don't suppose you can find a scan of that? I'm genuinely curious; haven't seen any sources about a flank hangar for an ISD. Was it obviously a variant destroyer, or did it correspond to any of the details on the model?

Sadly, it was more a paragraph. It just states: "This hanger was a repair and construction facility, and all the vehicles were either under construction or damaged and in need of repair." It's not unusual really. Mon Cal cruisers I recall had quite a few hangers too, besides the main hanger.

Actually, you might get an idea how such an auxiliary hanger might look like, if you take a look at some of the old Rebel Assault II cutscenes. Though those were for a Super Star Destroyer.

[fractalsponge1]

So was this specifically stated as being in the trench? There are many smaller hangars opening into the main and secondary bays of the ISD. I thought you meant it was a hangar separate from the well established two ventral hangar bays. If it's not and within the primary or secondary complexes, then it's not that interesting.

[Vympel]

I always thought this was intended to be a hangar, much like the large side-bays of the Venator (obviously much smaller):-

Link

The surface detail technically somewhat precludes it, but it very much looks like a hangar door to me.

[Alyeska]

Well, in that case, something's got to give- I'd tend to go with the EU novel being the one that should give, since so many are tainted by the under-sized and under-armed Executor disease rather than the ~19km, several thousand turoblasers version that actually makes sense.

That novel isn't so crazy as you think. The Executor herself should have outgunned the entire Rebel fleet at Endor, but somehow did not. It would seem that the Executor had a very substandard power core compared to other ships. It did not have the energy reserves necessary to power both shields and weapons fully at the same time. Its true capability was a result of its size.

We have 3 EU novels that go into detail on how Executor class ships can be taken out by lesser but prepared forces. These happen to be X-Wing series book. They also rate the Executor at the old classic 8km size. ROTJ doesn't put the Executor quite so weak, but when you factor in the scale different from 8km to 19km, it matches surprisingly close. You can't entirely write off the EU sources, but you can use scale to recalculate the battle.

When you get right down to it, the Executor is a crap design. It can't effectively fight off smaller ships in moderate numbers, most times it has a very small fighter compliment for its size, and it has power issues. Fractal's Bellator is the battleship that the Executor pretends to be. The Executor is a command ship and dual purpose infantry carrier. The Bellator is pure battleship with little consideration for anything else. The next true step above the Bellator is the Sovereign class.

Speak of, if you wanted to make a super laser equipped ship Fractal, the Sovereign might be a good place to start.

[Vympel]

That novel isn't so crazy as you think. The Executor herself should have outgunned the entire Rebel fleet at Endor, but somehow did not. It would seem that the Executor had a very substandard power core compared to other ships. It did not have the energy reserves necessary to power both shields and weapons fully at the same time. Its true capability was a result of its size.

I don't consider the Battle of Endor to be indicative of much in relation to Executor's effectiveness (or lack thereof) since it was such an inconclusive fiasco of a battle - leaving aside that the Imperial fleet basically handed the initiative to the Rebels, sacrificed their fighter forces in a fruitless unsupported attack on the Rebel fleet, and were then handicapped by the death of the Emperor and subsequent loss of Grand Admiral [can't remember his name] Battle Meditation, we have precious little idea of how the battle progressed throughout, never mind which fleet would've ultimately won, save for the fact that the Rebels achieved their objective and destroyed the Death Star 2, and the Imperial fleet retreated.

Executor had total shield dissipation capacity equivalent to that of a medium star (OT:ITW) - that would be divided amongst at least seven shield arcs. The temporary loss of its bridge deflector shields (no doubt contributed to by Ackbar's order for the Rebel fleet to attack the Imperial fleet's power generators to knock down their shields- directly explaining Executor's difficulties in the battle re: weapons and shields), and even the fluke loss of its bridge, in normal battle wouldn't have resulted in catastrophic destruction of the entire vessel.

When you get right down to it, the Executor is a crap design. It can't effectively fight off smaller ships in moderate numbers, most times it has a very small fighter compliment for its size, and it has power issues. Fractal's Bellator is the battleship that the Executor pretends to be. The Executor is a command ship and dual purpose infantry carrier. The Bellator is pure battleship with little consideration for anything else. The next true step above the Bellator is the Sovereign class.

Speak of, if you wanted to make a super laser equipped ship Fractal, the Sovereign might be a good place to start.

I have a higher opinion of Executor because - well - dammit it's Executor. The notion of Darth Vader's flagship sucking just doesn't sit well with me. So much of it is derived from fighter-wank novels that underestimate the ship's capabilities for various reasons.

[Alyeska]

Executor's bridge was destroyed less then 30 seconds after Ackbar gave the order to concentrate firepower. The Executor was engaged to no more then a dozen heavy warships and was destroyed by them. The Executor is easily a hundred times the size of an ISD. Not a very good showing.

The Lusyanka and Iron Fist encountered forces only 1/5 that. And yet the 8km ship is also around 1/5 the size of the 19km ship. Sorry, but the Executor was a crap design. For its size, it really sucked. It should have been able to one shot each Rebel ship, or it should have been able to punch full power to shields due to its sheer size and reactor capacity, but it didn't do either.

[Vympel]

Executor's bridge was destroyed less then 30 seconds after Ackbar gave the order to concentrate firepower. The Executor was engaged to no more then a dozen heavy warships and was destroyed by them. The Executor is easily a hundred times the size of an ISD. Not a very good showing.

We have no idea how many ships Executor had been engaged by at the relevant time - and it wasn't destroyed by them anyway. A lot of people assume that the Rebel fleet bombardment must've caused the bridge deflector shields to fail by direct cannonade against the bridge and so assign a rough number of ships (as seen from the Executor's bridge windows, for example) as those that would've been firing - that's not necessary at all, per Ackbar's order.

The Lusyanka and Iron Fist encountered forces only 1/5 that. And yet the 8km ship is also around 1/5 the size of the 19km ship. Sorry, but the Executor was a crap design. For its size, it really sucked. It should have been able to one shot each Rebel ship, or it should have been able to punch full power to shields due to its sheer size and reactor capacity, but it didn't do either.

In order for it to one shot each Rebel ship, it'd have to carry massive turbolasers - a typical heavy turbolaser may be able to take all the reactor power a ship like the Venator can put through to it, but that doesn't mean the same weapon (or a weapon of similar size, like Executor apparently has) can take everything that Executor can put through. Also, shield strength is limited more by dissipation capacity than power output - full power to shields can increase their dissipation capacity but there's no reason to believe it's a directly proportional relationship.

[fractalsponge1]

Endor I don't think is really indicative of the real potential of the design. Executor by its orders ceded all initiative to the Rebels, being told to essentially stand-to while DS2 cherry picked targets. It ended up sitting at point blank range and not really maneuvering, facing the equivalent of 30x line destroyers, outputting 60+ petatons per second in alpha pounding on one shield face. And even so, as Vympel pointed out, the loss of the bridge should not have normally resulted in the loss of the entire vessel in a long range maneuvering fight. The rest of Executor looked basically undamaged at the beginning of the powerslide. Even assuming it only packs 120x times ISD firepower (by turret count and assuming equal barrel size), for 500x+ the size, in an all-out fight at a more reasonable range, the Rebel fleet (or a similar rogue sector group) is still toast. One-volley kills per ship, if they hit.

Executor does seem to have power density issues, but this may just be a function of the size it needs for its command ship/carrier/docking functions, or it may sacrifice firepower and shields for speed. But without contrived tactical situations like Endor, it is still a formidable opponent, putting out quarter exoton volleys per second. Still Mandator-peer numbers.

The EU actions I'm not really familiar with, but an 8km ship with a quarter the power density of an ISD is another issue. Basically it comes down to how much confidence you have in the EU. If you're willing to argue that it's portraying an 8km ship at work, how do you know they're not also screwing up the size and composition of the Rebel force going after it?

[Alyeska]

The EU actions I'm not really familiar with, but an 8km ship with a quarter the power density of an ISD is another issue. Basically it comes down to how much confidence you have in the EU. If you're willing to argue that it's portraying an 8km ship at work, how do you know they're not also screwing up the size and composition of the Rebel force going after it?

Actually, that is what I was getting at.

[Vympel]

Speaking of Executor, any chance you have plans to do a model of her?

Personally I've always imagined the bumps on it's flush hull (as opposed to the city-scape) to be octuple guns like on the Avenger model, but I quite like the HTL models you did for the Bellator.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Executor was really a ship that shines on the long range because it could bring lots of weapons to bear at range. In some way it was a mobile artillery ship that pounded away at long range.

But, at close range things are different. The Executor, because of its bulk, can't bring so many weapons to bear. It cannot maneuver as fast, and a smaller and more nimble ship could possibly bring to bear more weapons than the Executor. The saving grace was the Executor had strong shielding, and it takes quite a bit of effort to bring it down. I remember reading that the fire from the Rebel fleet was focused on the bridge to bring local shielding down. That took a lot of effort, I might add.

[fractalsponge1]

Speaking of Executor, any chance you have plans to do a model of her?

Personally I've always imagined the bumps on it's flush hull (as opposed to the city-scape) to be octuple guns like on the Avenger model, but I quite like the HTL models you did for the Bellator.

You mean like the first 3d model I ever made?



It's actually out on scifi3d (this is from when I still released). It's definitely not my best work, so I don't really use it much any more. Might go back to it, dunno.

[fusion]

Speaking of Executor, any chance you have plans to do a model of her?

Personally I've always imagined the bumps on it's flush hull (as opposed to the city-scape) to be octuple guns like on the Avenger model, but I quite like the HTL models you did for the Bellator.

You mean like the first 3d model I ever made?


It's actually out on scifi3d (this is from when I still released). It's definitely not my best work, so I don't really use it much any more. Might go back to it, dunno.

I dare you to make a new executor that is on the same scale as Bellator

Anyways awesome work as always.

[fractalsponge1]

Apologies for the new download, but took out my small small destroyer and the fleet tanker, added some details and cleaned them up, and added the orthos to the big file. Now 10800x8000. Still HUGE.

[Rogue 9]

Awesome work, as always. You know, I want to get this fanfilm going now just to have the possibility of showing a refueling operation. And disrupting it, but hey, where's the fun when Imperial operations go off without a hitch?

[fusion]

Apologies for the new download, but took out my small small destroyer and the fleet tanker, added some details and cleaned them up, and added the orthos to the big file. Now 10800x8000. Still HUGE.

I think the word Huge is an understatement at this point...

It is taking a minute and a half to download this... ghezz

[Count Chocula]

Who's complaining about the size? Every graphics program for Windows has a "zoom" feature, and the detail is simply outstanding. Very, very good, Lucasarts-quality or better work.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I have a question, Sponge. Is there a possibility of a 'seige ship' built on the Bellator hull, with a large axial gun in the dorsal ridge in place of many of the heavy gun turrets?

[fractalsponge1]

Well, haven't really considered that. Though I've always thought about taking the executor hull and making a proper battleship out of it. Fill in most of the hangar bay, add a reactor bulb and plate over most of the cortex. Then mount an axial superlaser with its capacitor assembly down the center of the filled-in bay. Probably not going to happen though. Next big ship will likely be a carrier type, either cruiser-sized or Giel-style. Either that or some sort of interdictor variant on the ISD or light destroyer hull.

Now, I think it may be time for something relatively small and amusing:

[Marko Dash]

broadside missile cruiser?