SD+SB in Middle Earth

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-02-12 12:45pm

Modifying a Hummer into a Death Car, like the one Ash made in Army of Darkness, would be great for mowing down tight ranks of Uraki, and it would also save ammo at the same time.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 12:50pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Modifying a Hummer into a Death Car, like the one Ash made in Army of Darkness, would be great for mowing down tight ranks of Uraki, and it would also save ammo at the same time.

I think the ranks are a bit dense, we'd get bombarded with these guys who routinely charge enemies without flinching, a car of death will have to be very sturdy and you'd need to make sure they died.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-12 01:00pm

Time for me to propose strange things from the original scenario...

Location: Rohan's region is really ideal for us: Right in the center, yet nothing much happens until the battle of Helm's Deep. Keep in mind, folks, that except for the changes we induce, things will be running to the script. Until we act, Sauron and Saruman will be dancing to a tune we know. There will undoutably be minor changes, but the less we act, the less they change. I also daresay being at Helm's Deep wouldn't be a bad place.. Think about it, the entrenchments there are already heavy by local standards, and the caverns would help mask our forces.

Moral: We are fucked in this way. Think for a moment: We've been ripped from the world we know and thrown out into a medieval-era world, in a military base, no contact with home and about to face a pair of foes with thousands of troops to call on. Establishing links with all the races is absolutely vital, and I do mean all of them. Dwarvish metalsmithing combined with the knowledge we have(And the library has) on metallurgy is going to make truly scary metals, Elvish magic and healing is going to be needed for battle(We're only a few hundred, after all. We aren't gods.), and so forth.

Back to the subject of my choice of locations, Helm's Deep, we have some advantages. Earlier, easy contact with Rohan.. We can't do shit about the King's possession(Unless one of us picks up incredible wizard powers in the transfer), so we must forge our alliance with those in the fortress and close. Wyrmtongue will likely be suspicious of us, but we may be able to hold out there if we act nice. The production of simple firearms for our allies is a high priority(I hope like hell we have some kind of machine shop), as well as teaching these things to them. Saruman nearly won at Helm's Deep because of gunpowder.. I wonder how bad he'd shit himself if he saw it being used against him?

We must strike hard, fast, and decisively when we do act overtly. High explosive blowing up the damn at Isenguard and the Black Gate would leave both Sauron and Saruman surprised and shocked, allowing forces to attack directly.

Finally, I should note that while we have no true artillery, we may be able to create some primitive ones. We have the mathematics for it all, after all, and the materials.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 01:09pm

Do we have enough time before the Battle of Helm's Deep to modify the fortress?

I mean, we could produce a drawbridge upto the Keep instead if having that ramp which aids rams. We could put more fencing on the water hole on the outside so no one can lay charges in there.

Sniping positions could be take up all over the wall, I propose we have squads with each man having an SMG and pistol along with a specialised weapon. M249 SAWs, Barratt .50 cal anti-material rifles and Spaz shotguns or some such.

It's a pity we can't have grenade launchers too, we'll have to use the lab to make some rudimentary explosives like TNT or nitro if we have to. Napalm flame throwers could be made too if we have good mettallurgists and material science types (Darth Wong will know more on this).

If mustard gas is to be used, we'll have to make sure the wind doesn't factor into this, looking at the battle on the film, it seemed pretty calm since it's in a valley, the rain may hinder the gas propogation though.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 01:15pm

I'm thinking, could we possibly produce an ultrasonic weapon eventually? The technology is hardly out of our reach, we just need the power source, you could use such a device to act as a spotlight on the enemy, it would literally blow them back with enough power.

I'd mention infrasonics (having you shit yourself to death and become paralysed is bad) but you can't direct the waves so we'd all be affected.

Just a thought anyway since projectile weapons will run out eventually.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-12 01:19pm

My proposal would be to have our base actually imbed inself into Helm's Deep.. The majority in the caves, the perimeter becoming the Fortress itself. Let's face it, as far as fortresses go, it's badass.

Adding a drawbridge is easy: Demo charges at the end of the ramp, and now add the bridge, which can be wood or metal.

If Helm's Deep is our fortress, our +5/+5 50 Caliburs of Infinite Ammo and our Everloaded Grenade Launchers(Teehee) will be in position, though I would say we need to camo those.. Exposed gun positions will just invite curiousity from the Two Towers.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-12 01:21pm

SirNitram wrote:My proposal would be to have our base actually imbed inself into Helm's Deep.. The majority in the caves, the perimeter becoming the Fortress itself. Let's face it, as far as fortresses go, it's badass.

Adding a drawbridge is easy: Demo charges at the end of the ramp, and now add the bridge, which can be wood or metal.

If Helm's Deep is our fortress, our +5/+5 50 Caliburs of Infinite Ammo and our Everloaded Grenade Launchers(Teehee) will be in position, though I would say we need to camo those.. Exposed gun positions will just invite curiousity from the Two Towers.

Hmm, Helm's Deep is good (better in the book I hear) but we need to block that water hole up better else we suffer the same fate as in the normal timeline. If they breach that wall it becomes a close combat battle and GPMGs aren't that good when you have many enemies in sword range.

Our advantage here is range and power, I doubt many of us, even the military experienced, will fare as well with swords.

Which reminds me, I wouldn't mind having a katana with an ultrasonic ability to help cut armour.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-12 01:27pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Shit... someone bring a generator... prefrably nuclear, but as that's doubtless unavailable then bring a few portable short duration ones. What we will find useful is .... electrified fencing.... (I've been reading day of the triffids again)

And A bio lab. We have a few biologists, ok, AV how'd you like to make Orc specific black death?
A bioweapon would take time,

19 years enough?

but give me something of a lab and some samples of bacteria and I'm sure we could come up with a pathogen for orcs and Uruk-hai. It would be a long term thing, but it would inevitably mop up the major populations so we won't be fighting legions of the things forever.

Don't forget we don't want it to affect elves. Either that or you have to provide a vaccine for them, I mean the difference between orcs and elves is really tiny.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-12 01:30pm

As Raycav is still one of the top 75, I take it he is the interragator of orcs?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-12 01:35pm

First what kind of machine shops are available??

Second do we have any modern Duce and a halfs available the type that run off just about any combustable fuel ?
If so we could moddify a few into gun trucks ,add a few inches of wooden armor covered in rawhide to make it flameproof .amd two M60s will be a nasty surprise

For hunting we go with BOWS bows are readily available locally,have a reuseable ammo supply and are silent

Aircraft a hot air balloon if possible ,we could make it into a dirrigible but that would take longer and if need be and are near a water source we could set up a simple mill to churn out electricity and use the tricity to crack the water for hydrogen.

What sort of machine and maintanece shops are available?

Is Bamboo available locally if so we can improvise some nasty things using them .I think this is hopw the chinese made thefirst rockets and we have nbetter knowlegdge ,however if we want kerneld black powder we ned a source of potassium nitrate,a source of sulfur and a source of charcoal....long term charcoal is made from trees but the other two.....

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-12 01:52pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
SirNitram wrote:My proposal would be to have our base actually imbed inself into Helm's Deep.. The majority in the caves, the perimeter becoming the Fortress itself. Let's face it, as far as fortresses go, it's badass.

Adding a drawbridge is easy: Demo charges at the end of the ramp, and now add the bridge, which can be wood or metal.

If Helm's Deep is our fortress, our +5/+5 50 Caliburs of Infinite Ammo and our Everloaded Grenade Launchers(Teehee) will be in position, though I would say we need to camo those.. Exposed gun positions will just invite curiousity from the Two Towers.
Hmm, Helm's Deep is good (better in the book I hear) but we need to block that water hole up better else we suffer the same fate as in the normal timeline. If they breach that wall it becomes a close combat battle and GPMGs aren't that good when you have many enemies in sword range.

Our advantage here is range and power, I doubt many of us, even the military experienced, will fare as well with swords.

Which reminds me, I wouldn't mind having a katana with an ultrasonic ability to help cut armour.

On the contrary: I want them to blow that hole.

*Throws the IDIOM SWITCH he stole from Dalton*

The combined might of Rohan, the Elves, and The Last Alliance Of Spacebattles and Stardestroyer was ripping into the army, but still they came. They splashed against the walls like surf pounding at rocks, futily trying to breach the wall as catapults fired from behind the walls, flinging high explosive into the opposing army.

A single Orc, carrying a flaming, sparking torch was spotted. Aragon cried out in terror. "Legolas! Kill him!"

"All forces, fall back! Fall back to secondary positions! Go! Grab every elf and man and FALL BACK!" Screamed Nitram, safetying his weapon and dragging the bloodthirsty Gimli after him as he ran along the battlements. Chaos seemed to reign as the strangers grabbed everyone and ran to new positions, away from a section of wall...

The explosion was deafaning, and the orcs spilled through the hole, seeking targets for their swords. Yet the courtyard was empty. Almost completely empt-...

"Yippie yo ki ay, MOTHERFUCKERS!" Yelled Sheppard, as the .50 calibur machineguns were unveiled from their camo. The orcs, charging through a chokepoint, were ripped to shreds by the powerful weaponry.

*Pulls the switch back*

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-12 01:56pm

Note for an improvidsed claymore mine you need a way to set if off and some explosive to propell the shrapnel other than that just about anything can be used I believe.

with a shovel and some stakes you can set up a few rmoman style flour de puas......"flowers in ots I forget the exact naming of them) a simple wooden stake set in a pit ,nbice way to slow down a charge. Catapults can be used to throw napalm charges as well and imagine the havoc caused by packing a barrel wi nsails and gunpowder ,hurling it at the enemy and haaving it go off in there midst.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-02-12 02:04pm

Actually I was thinking about Helms Deep like this:

The orc army comes screaming down into the valley and finds the keep deserted, then little canisters of gas comes flying down from the high ends of the mountain walls that surrounds the valley, it's killing the orcs rather painfully, they try to retreat but the Entrance to the valley is now blocked, quikcly set up fortifications are mowing down anyone coming too close.

In an act of desperation the orcs try and find shelter from the gas inside the keep, however in the deepest recesses of Helms Deep sits DarkStar, cradling a model of the Enterprise, stroking it, calling it precious, he's got a detonator next to him.

Then the orcs come screaming inside and DarkStar screams "AAArgh, the warsies, I knew it, you want to take my precious! NEVER! *DS hits the detonator button*"

And suddenly Helms Deep erupts in fire.

Woops.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-12 02:06pm

The only aircraft I can see our forces being able to construct & maintain are methonyl(sp) powered ultralights. Yet these are quite useful: while not able to mount large scale air assaults, it is a prime insertion tool.

I do have to ask, though, whether we get the most modern toys of an army, like the next gen nightsights, etc.

Laird · Post by **Laird** » 2003-02-12 02:24pm

Yay! It's great to see Phong loves me so much.

I might not be a chem,physics major...but as far as militray training I have been trained to use the CF-7(Canadas main variant of the M-16.)

I was a reservist for 4 years and a army cadet all threw my teens its not like I can't fight and or not trained.

As for plans I'll leave that to the tacticans,I am a grunt plain and simple.

Though from Highschool chem class I remeber goofing an expriment where I dropped a piece of potasium or was it magnesium into some water and it shattered the beaker with the water.

Couldn't the chem lab fashion some big frags gernades outta this?
Nails+ pot/mag+water=big frag.(I just can't remeber which material it was been like 8 years since grade 9.)

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-12 03:15pm

I could be an emissary type person. I love that sort of thing ^_^

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-12 03:18pm

I'm studying biology and chemistry.
Guess that'd be useful?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-12 03:20pm

oh, and I'd bring the complete collection of tolkien's books, works, and notes. good to keep track of where everything is.

if I have some room, I'd bring the prince by machiavelli.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-12 03:24pm

Damn, pipped at the post, I'm 80 odd in the post count thing.

Its a shame really, I dont have military experience though I am something of an expert with the weapons of the area, from polearms to battle axes and long swords to daggers. Skill with some melee weapons would be an adviable part of training, just to a basic level, for situations when ammo runs low or if you are caught short escaping a group of enemies. Its important given the numbers of the forces involved that 'we' (since I technically cannot be included...) not loose anyone, we dont have the manpower to be able to afford it.

As for approaches I'd suggest....

1. Clear command structure : this would be the first step before anything else could be accomplished. Leadership and structure are needed, the basic arrangment suggested before seems to be the best one.

2. Establishment of Base : Clearing of the area and recon would be the main steps here, setting up a defendable base of operations is the next step logically speaking. Searching the area, finding out what natural resources we have available to use in the area, sources of water, food etc need to be secured ASAP, then more strategic resources.....

3. Assesment of Options : Based upon the exact rescources of the area, possible strategies could emmerge at this point....as Lord Wong mentioned methanol would be the best source of fuel for vehicles, this would mean agricultural facilities annexed to the base....things of this ilk.

4. Development of supplies : The suggestions of arming up middle earth against Sauron is an admirable one...and an area where some of my skills come into thier own....there is no real hope I would think of use with our varying skills of being able to fabricate modern automatic weapons for full sized armies to face the Dark Lord's minions (though whether its the Dark Lord sauron or our own Dark Lord, Wong in threads like this

...) therefore I'd suggest limited development of grapeshot style cannon weapons for them, nothing too complex a load of explosives, a big metal bowl and a lot of sharp things...a number of weapons like this could slow orc charges. I'd also suggest the use of tight formations and either polearms, or roman style drills to hold the troops together. Possibly deployment of mixed ranks with "blunderbuss" style technology would also be a possibility....before moving out to implement this, we would need to develop the equipment and technology (possibly developing our own training course to run blacksmiths etc and then troops through).

5. Allies : We would need allies, first of all recruiting locals to handle our food production needs and any mining would be a good idea. Once our basic needs are fufilled, alliances for military purposes would take priority. I would suggest an early approach to orthanc...if we arrive that early, then Saruman will not have yet fallen....he could be convinced through a demonstration of technology that he really doesnt want to oppose us, thus eliminating half the problems...then gathering together Gondor and Rohan as the main basis of forces.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-02-12 03:38pm

Having no practical experience, no military training whatsoever, and fairly weak physically, I'll probably sit in some corner and just watch.

Malecoda · Post by **Malecoda** » 2003-02-12 03:44pm

SirNitram wrote:The neutralization of Isengard is also a top priority. Ten thousand orcs is not a small number, even with 200 individuals with rifles. However, the chem lab leads to interesting and devastating consequences. While mustard gas is possible, I prefer not to.. Friendly fire and all that.

Mustard is pretty easy to defend against, so I'd go ahead and use it--safe for use, bad for them.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-12 03:52pm

Shinova wrote:Having no practical experience, no military training whatsoever, and fairly weak physically, I'll probably sit in some corner and just watch.

Hey you can still reload shep's MG-42.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-02-12 03:57pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:
Shinova wrote:Having no practical experience, no military training whatsoever, and fairly weak physically, I'll probably sit in some corner and just watch.
Hey you can still reload shep's MG-42.

You think I'd want to be within twenty feet of Sheppard when he goes gun-crazy!!??

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-12 03:57pm

Laird wrote: Though from Highschool chem class I remeber goofing an expriment where I dropped a piece of potasium or was it magnesium into some water and it shattered the beaker with the water.

Couldn't the chem lab fashion some big frags gernades outta this?
Nails+ pot/mag+water=big frag.(I just can't remeber which material it was been like 8 years since grade 9.)

Nooo there are so many nastier things to do with group 1 metals....

ever heard of "Pottassium Cyanide?"

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-12 04:01pm

Shinova wrote:
Cpt_Frank wrote:
Shinova wrote:Having no practical experience, no military training whatsoever, and fairly weak physically, I'll probably sit in some corner and just watch.
Hey you can still reload shep's MG-42.
You think I'd want to be within twenty feet of Sheppard when he goes gun-crazy!!??

Well if the alternative is being sent into battle without weapon as human-wave cannon fodder

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SD+SB in Middle Earth

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