The Pope have been given the last rites.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2005-04-01 09:43pm

Durandal wrote:And so it was A-OK for the Pope to stop secular aid workers from distributing and teaching Africans about condoms. Wow, your logic gets better as you get more fed up and desperate.

Care to prove he did this, seems strange that he was able to stop Secular agencys teaching about Condomns but not a Catholic Aid agency from Teaching about them, or stopping said Aid agency from becoming one of the main Catholic Agencies responsible for Aids and HIV in Africa...

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-04-01 09:56pm

Skelron wrote:
Durandal wrote:And so it was A-OK for the Pope to stop secular aid workers from distributing and teaching Africans about condoms. Wow, your logic gets better as you get more fed up and desperate.
Care to prove he did this, seems strange that he was able to stop Secular agencys teaching about Condomns but not a Catholic Aid agency from Teaching about them, or stopping said Aid agency from becoming one of the main Catholic Agencies responsible for Aids and HIV in Africa...

BBC wrote:Vatican in HIV condom row

Using a condom significantly reduces the risk of contracting HIV The Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus. The claims are made in a Panorama programme called Sex and the Holy City to be screened on BBC One on Sunday.

It says cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns in four continents are saying HIV can pass through tiny holes in condoms.

The World Health Organization has condemned the comments and warned the Vatican it is putting lives at risk.

The claims come just a day after a report revealed that a young person is now infected with HIV every 14 seconds.

Half of all new infections are now in people under the age of 25 and most of these are young women living in the developing world.

Condom advice

Health experts around the world urge people to use condoms to protect themselves from HIV and a host of sexually transmitted infections.

However, the Catholic Church has consistently refused to back such calls. The Vatican is opposed to contraception and has advocated that people change their behaviour instead.

But according to Panorama, the Church is now telling people that condoms do not work.

In an interview, one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals Alfonso Lopez Trujillo suggested HIV could even pass through condoms.

"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom," he says.

The cardinal, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, suggests that governments should urge people not to use condoms.

"These margins of uncertainty...should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

The Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panaroma that condoms were helping to spread the virus.

"Aids...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms," he said.

In Kenya, one in five people are HIV positive.

Gordon Wambi, director of an Aids testing programme in Lwak, near Lake Victoria, told the programme that he could not distribute condoms because of opposition from the Catholic Church.

"Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids," he said.

According to Panaroma, the claims about condoms are repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

Claims condemned

Catherine Hankins, chief scientific advisor to UNAids, condemned the Church's comments.

"It is very unfortunate to have this type of misinformation being broadcast," she told BBC News Online.

"It is a concern. From a technical point of view, the statements are totally incorrect.

"Latex condoms are impermeable. They do prevent HIV transmission."

The WHO also attacked the Catholic Church's comments.

"Statements like this are quite dangerous, " a spokeswoman told BBC News Online.

"We are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people and currently affects around 42 million.

"There is so much evidence to show that condoms don't let sexually transmitted infections like HIV through.

"Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong."

The aid agency Christian Aid also attacked the Vatican's attitude.

"Condoms are a straightforward and effective way of preventing HIV transmission and to suggest otherwise is dangerous," said Dr Rachel Baggaley, head of its HIV unit.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-04-01 10:54pm

The talking heads are already labeling him "John-Paul the Great". Any objective analysis shows his record as pope to be a decidedly mixed one. He gets due credit for his opposition to both Communism and Corporatism, his efforts to broker peace internationally, and his efforts at outreach to the Jewish and Muslim faiths as well as the various Protestant and Orthodox denominations in reverse of centuries of Vatican hostility toward every religion outside of Holy Mother Church. He did acknowledge the Church's errors in the condemnation of Gallileo and more importantly toward its inaction during the Nazi Holocaust.

However, in doctrinal matters, his model was right out of the 13th century. He has done everything he can to water down the Vatican II reforms, encouraged reactionary arch-conservatism within the Church, and has promulgated the irresponsible opposition to sex education and birth-control distribution in Africa, which has contributed markedly to the twin horrors of overpopulation and the AIDS epidemic presently ravaging the continent. He has refused to take any stand on pedophile priests other than to maintain the present doctrine that the Church can police itself in such matters. He has helped ensure a continuing climate of hostility against homosexuals both with his direct statements as well as his writings and by his stacking of the present Curate with arch-conservative Cardinals who will have in their hands the whole power for choosing the next pope. This means that the Church is only going to become more, not less, reactionary, towards any tendency to Modernism or toleration. A John XXIII he definitely wasn't, and thanks to him, there isn't likely to be another one for generations to come.

tumbletom · Post by **tumbletom** » 2005-04-01 11:14pm

Macross wrote:
Psycho Smiley wrote:Death seems to bring out the selective memories in people. Yes, he did good stuff. But remember the shit he was pulling just before he was incapacitated? The whole "Homosexuality is an Ideology of EVIL!!!111one" bit? I'm not sitting here waiting for him to die, but the only regret I have over it is that they'll probably pick someone worse to replace him.
They also have to do everything in their power to prolong his life for as long as possible. The Pope would have wanted it that way. Death in any way, shape or form is wrong and against the will of God. So lets get him hooked up to those machines and hopefully they wont have to pick another pope for a very long time!

That made me think, hypothetically, what if the pope for some reason degenerates into a Terri Shiavo thing and is in a vegitative state for 15 years and everything? Would he technically still be the pope?

Would Catholics have to follow what he "says" about moral issues and such.(maybe what pepel close to him say he's "saying" ) Would he have any power?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-04-02 01:26am

tumbletom wrote:
Macross wrote:
Psycho Smiley wrote:Death seems to bring out the selective memories in people. Yes, he did good stuff. But remember the shit he was pulling just before he was incapacitated? The whole "Homosexuality is an Ideology of EVIL!!!111one" bit? I'm not sitting here waiting for him to die, but the only regret I have over it is that they'll probably pick someone worse to replace him.
They also have to do everything in their power to prolong his life for as long as possible. The Pope would have wanted it that way. Death in any way, shape or form is wrong and against the will of God. So lets get him hooked up to those machines and hopefully they wont have to pick another pope for a very long time!
That made me think, hypothetically, what if the pope for some reason degenerates into a Terri Shiavo thing and is in a vegitative state for 15 years and everything? Would he technically still be the pope?

Would Catholics have to follow what he "says" about moral issues and such.(maybe what pepel close to him say he's "saying" ) Would he have any power?

Hmm... In such an event, they'd probably have to appoint a special mystic able to receive Divine Interpretation of pronouncements like "Bleaaaah" and "Awaaaahh".

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2005-04-02 09:26am

The Vatican this morning reports that the Pope is slipping in and out of consciousness... death will probably come within a day or so.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2005-04-02 12:09pm

All the news networks concentrating on the pope,makes me think of the Romans watching Christians being thrown to the lions.

Post by **Coyote** » 2005-04-02 12:33pm

Odd, how there doesn't seem to be anything else happening in the world, or at least as the news neats are concerned? Indonesian quakes, Iraq, North Korea.... all put on hold.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-04-02 01:06pm

Yes Coyote, I also find that strange. I live in a country (Sweden, if that isn't clear from my username

) where catholics constitutes about 1.5 % of the population, and still every front page has the pope on it. The television news are all about the pope. There are far more important news.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2005-04-02 02:57pm

CNN reports that the Pope has died.

tumbletom · Post by **tumbletom** » 2005-04-02 02:59pm

Hardy wrote:CNN reports that the Pope has died.

Again....

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-04-02 03:00pm

No, it's official this time.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-04-02 03:01pm

Link!? I request a link

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-04-02 03:02pm

Put on your television.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-04-02 03:02pm

damn... I have to turn the accursed thing on

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2005-04-02 03:03pm

Several papers have picked it up as well.

RIP

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-04-02 03:04pm

Mange the Swede wrote:Put on your television.

I don't have cable or TV signals and cnn.com still says he has a fever and is serious condition.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-04-02 03:04pm

Well, Alyrium Denryle, here's a link for you:

http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTB2MXQ5M ... -/s/235150

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 2005-04-02 03:05pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399715.stm

BBC

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-04-02 03:05pm

Ah, thank you Mange.

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2005-04-02 03:06pm

The news networks are running the story, and MSNBC has it on their front page.

Post by **Coyote** » 2005-04-02 05:12pm

Well, he's dead now.

All in all, I do think he was an okay guy. The things he stood up for that I did not like wree not htings that he started, but were part of the society he lived in, so I don't hold him personally responsible. He did perpetuate these things, however-- typical conservative religious bigot stuff. He also tried to ignore, tjhen minimize, the pedophilia problems within the church.

OTOH, he did make a stance against Communism and the oppression of Eastern Europe, and warned about the excesses of consumerism. He faced the changing demographics within his church by appointing more minorities to positions of leadership. He rallied for support for the world's oppressed and hungry, and denounced the anti-Semitic strain within the church.

Overall I'll say more good than bad, but just by a bit.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-04-02 05:23pm

Coyote wrote:Well, he's dead now.

All in all, I do think he was an okay guy. The things he stood up for that I did not like wree not htings that he started, but were part of the society he lived in, so I don't hold him personally responsible. He did perpetuate these things, however-- typical conservative religious bigot stuff. He also tried to ignore, tjhen minimize, the pedophilia problems within the church.

Part of the society he lived in? You mean the one he was in autocratic control over?

He was in a position of great power, one that could do great good or great harm, and in many ways he did a lot of harm. Personally I think that outweighs the good he did.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2005-04-02 07:11pm

John Paul's fundamental philosophy was that individual human beings are entitled to life, dignity, and freedom. The way I see it, you can make all the arguments you want with how he defined those things, but the fact that the leader of the largest church on Earth believed that--not "kill the infidels", not "convert at gunpoint", not "burn the witches" or "jail the heretics" or even "anyone who doesn't agree with us doesn't deserve our charity" or any other damn thing--outweighs the bad that came with his views.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-02 08:03pm

Regardless of his merits, my friends and I figured that if it looked like he was going to enter a coma or vegetative state his functionaries would have offed him. The LAST thing the Catholic church needs is a living but useless Pontiff.

I was actually surprised how YOUNG he was. My grandmother is almost ten years older, and she's more functional than the Pope has been in years.