SD+SB in Middle Earth

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-21 02:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Balrog wrote:The Nazgûl do have Fell Beasts they fly into battle on. They've been mentioned riding on them in all three books (at least 2 of them )
Target practice for .50cal guns.

Real easy to aim one while being carried by the talons of a giant eagle.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 02:58pm

Balrog wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Balrog wrote:The Nazgûl do have Fell Beasts they fly into battle on. They've been mentioned riding on them in all three books (at least 2 of them )
Target practice for .50cal guns.
I think we already went over that Wong

They were just asking if the Nazgûl had flying beasts.

And I was just reiterating that it doesn't matter. Or perhaps that was too complicated for you?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-21 02:58pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Balrog wrote:The Nazgûl do have Fell Beasts they fly into battle on. They've been mentioned riding on them in all three books (at least 2 of them )
Target practice for .50cal guns.
Real easy to aim one while being carried by the talons of a giant eagle.

Though given they have to close to point black range to harm you....its likely to be amusing....

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-21 02:59pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:the eagles. that's brilliant. they fought in the war - I think they may send 3 eagles as preemptive strike.
In the book they consider giving the Eagles the ring to carry to Mt. Doom but rejected it because they be too easily spotted and stopped.
in what chapter? I have no memory of that.

and also, who will stop them? the nazgul who dont have wings?

Its in the Council of Elrond.

As for what could stop them, its unlikely the Eagles could manage the thermals over the main vent, so they'd need to land and enter the cracks of doom on the ground, Saruon would have a huge swarm of troops and archers waiting.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 03:02pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Balrog wrote:The Nazgûl do have Fell Beasts they fly into battle on. They've been mentioned riding on them in all three books (at least 2 of them )
Target practice for .50cal guns.
Real easy to aim one while being carried by the talons of a giant eagle.

Why? They're really big and slow-moving, and it's not as if they can shoot back, so you don't need to hit them at long range.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-21 03:14pm

We don't need the eagles, we can just as well use Zeppelins.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-21 03:50pm

the nazgul dont get flyers till 20 yrs after we arrive. Im saying we move within the first five. no fliers to worry about.

and, how will sauron move troops that quickly? three eagles flying into mordor - why would he notice them? he doesnt even notice the two hobbits, and he's had two more decades to build up his forces.

fly in, land on the volcano, and someone walks in and throws the ring in. preferably 3 someones, so they can keep an eye on each other.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-21 03:50pm

the nazgul dont get flyers till 20 yrs after we arrive. Im saying we move within the first five. no fliers to worry about.

and, how will sauron move troops that quickly? three eagles flying into mordor - why would he notice them? he doesnt even notice the two hobbits, and he's had two more decades to build up his forces.

fly in, land on the volcano, and someone walks in and throws the ring in. preferably 3 someones, so they can keep an eye on each other.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-21 03:52pm

bloody double posts.

also, its in the eagles best interest to knock of sauron, and we can easily pay them hundreds of sheep or cows as danger pay. while we are training the troops, we're gaining territory with the agro military plan.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-21 06:13pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:the nazgul dont get flyers till 20 yrs after we arrive. Im saying we move within the first five. no fliers to worry about.

and, how will sauron move troops that quickly? three eagles flying into mordor - why would he notice them? he doesnt even notice the two hobbits, and he's had two more decades to build up his forces.

Why do older radar stations easy pick out a F-16 at 25K, but miss the F-111 flying a 200 down a valley? Simple, ground clutter. It's far easier to look around the horizon then it is to pick up a couple people down on the ground.

fly in, land on the volcano, and someone walks in and throws the ring in. preferably 3 someones, so they can keep an eye on each other.

Might work, but then again the Eagles might say fuck it, drop you to your death and go steal some sheep like they always have. Heck, how do we even reach the Eagles to ask them for help?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-21 06:19pm

Good point; the entire success or failure depends on total Eagle compliance, which gives a single point of failure which in turn is no good.

Best to stick with the original plan and not try to go for the easy shortcut.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-02-21 06:22pm

I don't know, but for the last two pages visions of Jules Vern have been dancing in my head.

Does that mean we attack the ships at the grey heavens with a submarine?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-21 06:25pm

I think the Zeppelin is the best bet, if we can manage to build it. It can fly higher than enemy artillery can go, and if the Nazghul do get their wings before they're supposed to, 6 men with assault rifles on board the thing could easily knock all of them down.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-02-21 06:31pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:I don't know, but for the last two pages visions of Jules Vern have been dancing in my head.

Does that mean we attack the ships at the grey heavens with a submarine?

Why would we attack the Grey Havens? Aren't they theoretically allied with us?

Though it would be amusing to harry the fleets of Harad with submarines...

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-02-21 06:41pm

No I was just making refrence to 20,000 leagues.

Since the whole super-zeppline idea was very much a sort of Master of the World, kinda thing.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-02-21 06:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Balrog wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Target practice for .50cal guns.
I think we already went over that Wong

They were just asking if the Nazgûl had flying beasts.
And I was just reiterating that it doesn't matter. Or perhaps that was too complicated for you?

And I was simply answering a question, not making a point already discussed about 20-pages back.

Pretty quick, that Wong is

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-22 06:54am

Durandal wrote:I think the Zeppelin is the best bet, if we can manage to build it. It can fly higher than enemy artillery can go, and if the Nazghul do get their wings before they're supposed to, 6 men with assault rifles on board the thing could easily knock all of them down.

The Zeppelin idea, however, does hinge on a lot of aluminum. I suppose that if bamboo and artisans familiar with the material's properties were available, the skeleton of a very small Zeppelin could be made of bamboo, but otherwise aluminum seems like the only choice. Which brings up the problem of acquiring that much aluminum and turning it into structural members for a Zeppelin. Even if the base has a supremely well stocked machine shop, the only ready source of aluminum would be the HMMWV fleet.

Now, if you were to build a blimp...

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-22 07:01am

Patrick Ogaard wrote: Now, if you were to build a blimp...

A blimp would still be better than eagles.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-22 07:06am

Balrog wrote:And I was simply answering a question, not making a point already discussed about 20-pages back.

Pretty quick, that Wong is

Ahh, so you evaluate someone's intelligence based on the fact that he makes a point twice because he thinks it bears repeating? Interesting criteria, dumb-fuck.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-22 01:26pm

Patrick Ogaard wrote: The Zeppelin idea, however, does hinge on a lot of aluminum. I suppose that if bamboo and artisans familiar with the material's properties were available, the skeleton of a very small Zeppelin could be made of bamboo, but otherwise aluminum seems like the only choice. Which brings up the problem of acquiring that much aluminum and turning it into structural members for a Zeppelin. Even if the base has a supremely well stocked machine shop, the only ready source of aluminum would be the HMMWV fleet.

Now, if you were to build a blimp...

Aluminium would be the first choice if we could get it....and bamboo would I suppose be an option...but there is a material in middle earth that might suit our needs for a project like this....mithril....it is mentioned as being extremely strong and very light. The two main qualities we'd be looking for....though as its highly sought after obtaining it might be problamatic....

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-22 01:33pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Patrick Ogaard wrote: The Zeppelin idea, however, does hinge on a lot of aluminum. I suppose that if bamboo and artisans familiar with the material's properties were available, the skeleton of a very small Zeppelin could be made of bamboo, but otherwise aluminum seems like the only choice. Which brings up the problem of acquiring that much aluminum and turning it into structural members for a Zeppelin. Even if the base has a supremely well stocked machine shop, the only ready source of aluminum would be the HMMWV fleet.

Now, if you were to build a blimp...
Aluminium would be the first choice if we could get it....and bamboo would I suppose be an option...but there is a material in middle earth that might suit our needs for a project like this....mithril....it is mentioned as being extremely strong and very light. The two main qualities we'd be looking for....though as its highly sought after obtaining it might be problamatic....

Its far to rare and expensive. Hell, there may no even be enough left outside of Mordor to build a large enough Zeppelin.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-22 01:38pm

[quote="Sea Skimmer]
Its far to rare and expensive. Hell, there may no even be enough left outside of Mordor to build a large enough Zeppelin.[/quote]

Yeah, it'd be a pain in the ass to get anywhere near the amound we'd need....

Ah, 'tis a shame....

Also, a little plug...anyone else intrested in being in the fic I'm working on let me know...

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-23 09:58am

Actually, a Schutte-Lanz pattern dirigable could be built out of plywood. Count Zeppelin wasn't the only German into building rigid airships, and SLs were combat-worthy in the Great War.

http://www.worldwar1.com/arms/zepp011.jpg - There's a picture of a Schutte-Lanz built dirigable. The Schutte-Lanz company was actually responsible for some of the late war design improvements (I have a book on the development of military airships in the Great War), and though they were generally slower and the plywood frame did have disadvantages, it was definitely workable.

So if you want an airship we can probably do one.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-23 11:27am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Actually, a Schutte-Lanz pattern dirigable could be built out of plywood. Count Zeppelin wasn't the only German into building rigid airships, and SLs were combat-worthy in the Great War.

http://www.worldwar1.com/arms/zepp011.jpg - There's a picture of a Schutte-Lanz built dirigable. The Schutte-Lanz company was actually responsible for some of the late war design improvements (I have a book on the development of military airships in the Great War), and though they were generally slower and the plywood frame did have disadvantages, it was definitely workable.

So if you want an airship we can probably do one.

Well, since the Romans made their standard infantry shields out of what was effectively plywood, that technology is not out of reach. That is, as opposed to building a large-scale hydroelectric plant and then figuring out where usable deposits of bauxite are, and doing all the other stuff needed to churn out decent masses of aluminum.

Plywood it is, then. The hydrogen would make the machines flammable in any event, so adding some mildly flammable plywood is probably not an issue.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-23 06:45pm

http://spot.colorado.edu/~dziadeck/airs ... e-lanz.htm

- There's a page with more information. Basically, we'd need to solve the glue problem if we wanted reliable over-water operation, though I should note that the German Army used them just fine, and they were employed safely in several, though not frequent, raids against England.