Heaven Runs out of Room

FireNexus · Post by **FireNexus** » 2008-01-11 02:47pm

Satan seems able to leave hell (Read: The New Testament) so the barrier isn't impermeable.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2008-01-11 03:17pm

brianeyci wrote:I believe the question of the op is whether athiests would start worshipping God. If incontrivertiable proof of God existed, athiests could convert in large numbers.

Why would anyone in his right mind worship something that condemned him to eternal torture just for being alive? Yes, most atheists would start believing in God if the evidence was there, but believing in the existence of something and worshipping it are two different things. If anything I'd expect this scenario to see large deconversions of religious people, because they now know worshipping God won't do anything for them anymore (though I expect large numbers would still adopt some variant of sticking their heads in the sand and going "it isn't true, it isn't true.").

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2008-01-11 04:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:Good old human nature. Give us a responsibility, and we will hem, haw, or bury our heads in the sand. But give us an enemy, especially an ultimate enemy like this one, and we will fight to the end.

It was said that the machine gun took the romance out of combat. Aiming said machine gun at the Heavenly Host to wrest free will from God certainly seems to have brought it back.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-01-11 04:31pm

Makes me think of the first two lines opening a song by a Swedish power metal band, Sabaton, the song being Primo Victoria (First Victory).

Through the Gates of Hell!
As we cut our way to Heaven!

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-01-11 05:20pm

We will build a tower to heaven with the bodies of our enemies!

Ryan Thunder · Post by **Ryan Thunder** » 2008-01-11 06:26pm

Didn't we already try something like that? And fail?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-01-11 06:31pm

Ryan Thunder wrote:Didn't we already try something like that? And fail? :wtf:

God was concerned enough about the effort of some bronze-age tribes with mud bricks to take active measures to stop it. That should tell you something.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2008-01-11 06:33pm

Ryan Thunder wrote:Didn't we already try something like that? And fail?

IIRC god fucked us over by scattering humanity and giving them different languages because we were to capable.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2008-01-11 07:07pm

Setzer wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ ... _of_demons

according to Alfonso de Spina, there are 133,316,666 demons in hell.

Johaan Weyer, in his Pseudomonarchia Daemonum (1583) after a complicated system of hierarchies and calculations, estimated the number of demons in 44,435,622, divided in 666 legion, each legion composed by 6,666 demons, and all of them ruled by 66 hellish dukes, princes, kings, etc.

Unfortunately, the numbers changed with each edition of Weyer's book.

Either way, we're up against quite a few demons. Fortunately, humans are more prolific.

A couple hundred million demons against 6 billion humans. We've got the manpower reserve to handle the legions of Hell several times over.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-01-11 07:16pm

The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-01-11 08:06pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.

We can buy ourselves the prep time with our superior tactics and firepower.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2008-01-11 08:09pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.

Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-01-11 08:50pm

White Haven wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?

Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.

There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-01-11 09:12pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: God was concerned enough about the effort of some bronze-age tribes with mud bricks to take active measures to stop it. That should tell you something.

That he's paranoid? We knew that *already*.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-01-11 09:21pm

Zuul wrote:Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.

There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?

While you make alot of sense, one of the key traits of demons is that they are fundamentally uncapable of changing, at least with respect to their revolt against God. While humans may accept or reject God many times during their lives, for demons it was a one-time choice.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-01-11 09:32pm

Being incapable of changing your mission parameters doesn't mean you can't come up with new technologies to accomplish it. Depending on the nature and capabilities of Hell when it's discovered, declaring war on it may be about as smart as picking a fight with a modern nation (or future one, for that matter) with the ability to make its soldiers invisible and immortal.

However, if we consider it, we have several billion souls that we may be able to "sell" to Satan in order to get the means to fight ethereal beings. Then again, now that everyone's going there regardless, he may reject all such offerings as worthless, not to mention the obvious step of not giving people the ability to harm him in the process anyway.

That's if he does such deals in the first place.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2008-01-11 10:25pm

Zuul wrote:
White Haven wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?
Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.

Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.

There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?

Isolation, for a start. And if beings can be summoned up and commanded by a book of magic words and phrases, that indicates that they've not changed all that much in the last five thousand years. That is, after all, what the Ars Goetia is about.

BTW, that hands humanity yet another weapon or at least a means of confounding the enemy or learning their secrets, since once summoned and bound under the proper incantations, the demon must obey its summoner and answer all questions put to it. Far more efficient and quicker than waterboarding.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-01-11 10:38pm

This means we'd have advanced knowledge of every single thing they'd be planning.

Gullible Jones · Post by **Gullible Jones** » 2008-01-11 10:58pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Zuul wrote:
White Haven wrote: Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?
Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.
Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.

Uhh, Jehovah can create violate conservation of energy, creating matter from nothing. And, presumably, antimatter, if he created the whole universe. That would present some trouble.

There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?
Isolation, for a start. And if beings can be summoned up and commanded by a book of magic words and phrases, that indicates that they've not changed all that much in the last five thousand years. That is, after all, what the Ars Goetia is about.

BTW, that hands humanity yet another weapon or at least a means of confounding the enemy or learning their secrets, since once summoned and bound under the proper incantations, the demon must obey its summoner and answer all questions put to it. Far more efficient and quicker than waterboarding.

Assuming demons can't specify a deal we can't meet in exchange for the data. Or, more likely, a deal that would require us to corrupt ourselves, and possibly advance their cause.

(The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy; no more, no less.)

Also, if God isn't cooperating, the assorted Catholic-style methods of controlling demons might not work, which would definitely be a bit of a setback.

Gullible Jones · Post by **Gullible Jones** » 2008-01-11 10:59pm

Ghetto edit: not arguing that the situation is hopeless, just playing, uhh, devil's advocate.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2008-01-11 11:11pm

Gullible Jones wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Zuul wrote: Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.
Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.
Uhh, Jehovah can create violate conservation of energy, creating matter from nothing. And, presumably, antimatter, if he created the whole universe. That would present some trouble.

Jehovah can also be driven off by iron chariots. Not very impressive for a being which can supposedly violate the laws of physics at will as you would have it —which, BTW, is not supported by what is written regarding his alleged miracles, or even the creation.

Assuming demons can't specify a deal we can't meet in exchange for the data. Or, more likely, a deal that would require us to corrupt ourselves, and possibly advance their cause.

Um, nope. The incantations and rituals in the Ars indicate that the demon is bound once summoned to the circle. It is, of course, the responsibility of the magus to keep control of the exchange but again that's the point of the book.

Also, if God isn't cooperating, the assorted Catholic-style methods of controlling demons might not work, which would definitely be a bit of a setback.

Nothing indicates that the rituals would be rendered ineffective by God's lack of cooperation. Indeed, it is already a violation of his edicts to even be fooling with magick in the first place yet that supposedly does not prevent the incantations from working.

ray245 · Post by **ray245** » 2008-01-11 11:47pm

Stark wrote:Oh yeah, I bet guys with guns never showed up in hell before!

What are you, fucking retarded?

I just noticed something. Assuming that whatever equipment the person was carrying end up in hell with him...then thanks to all the wars we had, Hell COULD get certain tanks, planes and etc.

Commander 598 · Post by **Commander 598** » 2008-01-12 12:24am

I have an idea...but it involves a giant robot, a drill, red paint, weird sunglasses, and using the phrase "...pierce the heavens!".

As for what hell Hell has to combat mankind with, I would at least plan for stuff out of 40k. It'd suck if we planned for a bunch of spear toting and totally killable demons but got a Bloodthirster instead wouldn't you say?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-01-12 01:20am

Doesn't the Bible describe the weapons that are used when Jesus comes back? The guy comes back with a sword in his mouth. Don't you think that if a guy could upgrade from a sword in his mouth to 120mm smoothbore, he would have done so? It seems to me that their technology is in stasis.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2008-01-12 02:00am

Darth Wong wrote:Doesn't the Bible describe the weapons that are used when Jesus comes back? The guy comes back with a sword in his mouth. Don't you think that if a guy could upgrade from a sword in his mouth to 120mm smoothbore, he would have done so? It seems to me that their technology is in stasis.

I've actually seen plenty of fundies try and excuse such things as "ancient man seeing modern stuff but having to describe it using words the ancient people would understand". Seriously, I've heard them insist things in the bible like dragons are really a 2000 year ago ignoramous trying to describe having a vision of a modern jet.