SD+SB in Middle Earth

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-12 10:10pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Suitcase nukes weigh 150 pounds, you can carry one if you want, its your spine. I'd rather bring a 81mm mortar myself if I went for a weapon. The ammo is not that complex, and it would be great for many tasks.

If we can make black powder, we're good to go for the propellant.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-12 10:14pm

phongn wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's not like I was gonna make HIV or anything, c'mon, we can make at least something to poison their water supplies, Cholera per chance? Just a weeny bug, nothing major.
And what if it spreads? You can't guard agains tthat.

If not, you better believe I want my VX or orbital UV satellite system.
I'm somewhat nervous about VX since we don't have NBC suits; something relatively simple like phosgene or mustard gas should work.

VX is persistent for weeks. Even if we could make it, I'd shoot anyone who tried. We'd very likely wipe out our complex with it, the stuff is highly corrosive and generally unsafe without MOPP 4.

Phosgene would be best, it is only persistent for short times though it does need high concentrations to be lethal. However you only affects via inhalation, so unlike Mustard we won't need to worry about skin coverage. I doubt where going to get much killing effect even with pre-deployed canisters. But even non-lethal concentrations would disrupt and panic any attacking formation.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-12 10:17pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
phongn wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's not like I was gonna make HIV or anything, c'mon, we can make at least something to poison their water supplies, Cholera per chance? Just a weeny bug, nothing major. :)
And what if it spreads? You can't guard agains tthat.

If not, you better believe I want my VX or orbital UV satellite system. :D
I'm somewhat nervous about VX since we don't have NBC suits; something relatively simple like phosgene or mustard gas should work.
VX is persistent for weeks. Even if we could make it, I'd shoot anyone who tried. We'd very likely wipe out our complex with it, the stuff is highly corrosive and generally unsafe without MOPP 4.

Phosgene would be best, it is only persistent for short times though it does need high concentrations to be lethal. However you only affects via inhalation, so unlike Mustard we won't need to worry about skin coverage. I doubt where going to get much killing effect even with pre-deployed canisters. But even non-lethal concentrations would disrupt and panic any attacking formation.

I keep telling you people. Anthrax. Simple to make and easy to distribute.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-12 10:18pm

weemadando wrote:I keep telling you people. Anthrax. Simple to make and easy to distribute.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-12 10:18pm

phongn wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Suitcase nukes weigh 150 pounds, you can carry one if you want, its your spine. I'd rather bring a 81mm mortar myself if I went for a weapon. The ammo is not that complex, and it would be great for many tasks.
If we can make black powder, we're good to go for the propellant.

Propellant and filling are easy. We might only get a lethal bursting radius of a 5-10 meters rather then 20+ but it's enough. Its actually making them ammunition case I'm worried about. The low pressures of a mortar mean we can retain a useful explosive load even if we make them out of shitty iron or very poor steel. With some form of direct fire weapon ammo becomes much more difficult.

But making a mortar on our own would also mildly hard. We could do it but it would likely weight a few hundred pounds.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-12 10:21pm

phongn wrote:
weemadando wrote:I keep telling you people. Anthrax. Simple to make and easy to distribute.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

I doubt it. It is easy to make, but less easy to use. Where not going to get it airborne, but we could get water. But I don’t think we want to contaminate too much water.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-12 10:22pm

There are some issues we need to work out, namely if we're in the movie or if we're book universe. There are differences.

In the movie, the Black Gate is a two-piece affair that requires the Olog-Hai to move the damned things. The one in the book is a single-piece affair with three massively reinforced gates.

In the movie, Theoden is possessed. In the book, he is merely under the sway of Grima's words; he can be roused out of it by a sufficiently good orator (such as Gandalf).

The structure of Helm's Deep is similar though not identical. The way to the caves is guarded not by the Hornberg but by the Deeping Wall. The calvary charge did not take place down the slope but from the caves themselves and not led by Gandalf but Erkenband.

Elvish archers are apparently far more effective than shown in the movie at Helm's Deep.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-12 10:24pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
phongn wrote:
weemadando wrote:I keep telling you people. Anthrax. Simple to make and easy to distribute.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
I doubt it. It is easy to make, but less easy to use. Where not going to get it airborne, but we could get water. But I don’t think we want to contaminate too much water.

It's also rather persistant and if it spreads we're screwed.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-02-12 10:25pm

OK. That would have been me.

None of us have skills at demo. And?

We do the following:

Some scouting to get an idea of the design and structure of the dam.

Give this info to some of our friendly local engineers.

Get the details from them on its most likely weakpoints.

Get the chemical lab boys to cook up some good explosives that can be waterproofed, if we don't already have some C4 with detonators, lunchboxes and cling-wrap.

Myself (holding an advanced diving certificate, and likely to be getting more qualifications including deep diving this year) trains a few others in the skills neccessary to dive. Of course, this is assuming that there is at least some SCUBA equipment on base. Nitrox equipment would be nice, but we could deal without it.

We go in on kayaks or similar being as stealthy as possible until we are in diving range of the dam. We swim in, set the charges and get back the kayaks - hopefully unnoticed. At a later point (like when we aren't on that particular part of river anymore) we blow the charges.

No more dam, no more industrialised Isengard.

Actually,it was Byran who suggested we zoom in,blow the gate with missiles,rush through the camp firing at anything that moves,then blow up the dam using demolitions.

Do you have demolition skills?I would think that diving and setting up an explosive circuit,especially at night would be extremely dangerous and taxing.Not to mention the need for stealth.After all,that's why the BOOM patrol were considered elites.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-12 10:26pm

Me and Mine:

Height: 6'1
Build: Walking Stick
Corrective lenses, allergy to some foods, though I hope that's cured by the crossover.

My skills aren't that grand. They fall in the realm of authors, not warriors! But I've got lots of ideas and plans, which may be useful. I've also got a good grasp of strategy, if not tactics. I'd be a good lab assistant as I have good grasp of concepts if not math. I'm passable with rifles at a range, though if you're handing my skinny ass a gun, we are probably in trouble.

Vehicle driver would be good.. I'm a decent driver, especially since I won't have other cars to worry about.

What would I bring in my pack...

Laptop. In it, every damn website I could find on simple artillery(Catapults, Trebuchets), simple firearms construction, production of alcohol(For both fuel for our Hummers Or Deuces, and for victory parties.

), The Complete Anarchists Guide, metallurgy information, agricultural(I'm sure we've learned something to improve on what Middle Earth has).

And every damn Tolkien book I can find. If nothing else, the Simirillian. Know the entire past, and some of the future(We'll be fucking with that, though..).

Can I fold my girlfriend into my backpack? She's decent with melee weaponry, good with shotguns, and an SCA'er for fifteen years. Things like sewing = GOOD for us. She also is nudging me and pointing out she can cook and can skin a deer, or rabbit, or squirrel, etc.. Crazy West Virginians.

I think that's all that's relevent, unless I can figure out magic once we cross over. If we can, behold my HADOKEN!

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-12 10:28pm

I brought the books =p. I win.

the websites are a good idea tho.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-12 10:29pm

PainRack wrote:Do you have demolition skills?I would think that diving and setting up an explosive circuit,especially at night would be extremely dangerous and taxing.Not to mention the need for stealth.After all,that's why the BOOM patrol were considered elites.

He can probably do it during the day: the water is probably not so clear that anyone would notice, and Orcs have never seen a scuba diver before. They wouldn't know enough to be looking for one. Moreover, even if they spotted him, what would they do about it? If he's made, he can just scoot away and all they can do is scream on the shoreline about it and chase him until he reaches the Hummer that's been waiting down the shoreline, at which point they eat a whole lot of 7.62mm from the driver until he can get out of the water.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-12 10:37pm

A nice big distraction would serve well if stealth won't work on its own. Lob in some mortar bombs and drive hummers in circles about a mile off. When the Orcs come pouring out to deal with the nuisance we pull back slowly shooting, perhaps leaving them chemical bombs behind as well to scatter them.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-12 10:41pm

Darth Wong wrote:He can probably do it during the day: the water is probably not so clear that anyone would notice, and Orcs have never seen a scuba diver before. They wouldn't know enough to be looking for one. Moreover, even if they spotted him, what would they do about it? If he's made, he can just scoot away and all they can do is scream on the shoreline about it and chase him until he reaches the Hummer that's been waiting down the shoreline, at which point they eat a whole lot of 7.62mm from the driver until he can get out of the water.

Actually part of the advanced course is becoming proficient at night diving. And like I said, I'd want to have several more people trained for redundancy and also to get everyone to a level where you aren't freaked out by diving at night anymore.

Setting the charge and choosing the place wouldn't be that difficult. Just look at the dam in the movie. All you'd need is a few polaroids of it and an engineer would be able to tell you which stone to blast slightly out of position to bring the whole thing down on itself.

And using standard equipment I could dive to probably 50m. I'd definately want another tank or two. Or even military level re-breather equipment (and the manuals). It wouldn't be a particularly nice or easy mission, but its doable.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2003-02-12 11:24pm

Lemme get this straight. It's 200 SB people and 75 SD people?

Seems a bit unbalanced there... what about the top 150 SD people...

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2003-02-13 12:16am

--As I see it this senario is complete overkill unless SD + SB people manage to totally screw themselves.
1. The good guys win even without intervention.
2. Knowledge of what the future holds in the hands of the good guys is absolutely crippling for the bad guys.
3. The firepower held by the SD + SB people in addition to the standard good guys is totally overwhelming. This becomes more true the sooner the good guys move since the bad guys will not have had the time to prepare for war or steal the new tech.

--I see several ways in which the SD + SB people could screw themselves.
1. Fail to conduct the proper scientific studies of middle earth physics and adapt plans accordingly. The primary weakness here is uncertainty about people's soul. Do the SD + SB people have them like middle earth people do? Does this mean SD + SB people can be corrupted like many of the people in middle earth were? If so what plans can be enacted to garantee that a small number of undiscovered turncoats won't screw everyone else. For example, what happens if Mike Wong takes the One Ring at some point in order to attempt to melt it? What is the risk that it will corrupt him and allow Sauron to doom everyone?
2. Fail to contact the good guys immediately before any unforseen problems arise and put the mission in jeopardy. If Sauron learns of the base and its nature it is a safe bet he will try to take it out and/or take it over. At the very least he will gain some insight into moder tech. The best way to deal with all the unknowns in middle earth is to contact the good guys. In my opinion, the addition of the SD + SB people actually put the outcome in doubt since the bad guys have yet another variable to fiddle with and they get to role the dice again. Even if the odds are worse than before, we know for a fact they lost the last time, however, now we want to monkey with that outcome (in the hope of saving more lives). We better be damn sure we mess things up.
3. Fail to secure modern tech. from the enemy and thus allow him to steal it. For example, he may learn all sorts of stuff by using insect and animal spies. If he manages to get ahold of the information in the library somehow that is a real problem. Even just seeing the new equipment gives the enemy valuable information.
4. Failure to anticipate counter measures. It has been suggested that mustard gas be used against Sauron. This seems like a rather risky venture to me. We know that the enemy has at least some control over the weather. What if he managed to trap some of that gas and then sneak it into the base with magic on a foggy night? Perhaps even worse, what if he used it on a hummer scouting patrol, but kept the people alive in order to corrupt them for use as spies? Is such a risk worth taking? Consultation with the good guys could of course solve this problem.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-02-13 12:18am

Hmm, well, I could bring the following skills to a fight:

A) Knows the basics of military drill and has instructed young people in shooting. Can also hit small targets from reasonable distances. And I come with a .410 shotgun.

B) The ability to traverse hostile terrain quickly for cheap. (My hobby was hiking up and down mountains.) I've also camp, so scouting is a good exercise for me.

C) Optics and electronics knowledge. Granted the electronics would be next to useless, but telescopes would be very valuable.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-02-13 12:24am

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Hmm, well, I could bring the following skills to a fight:

A) Knows the basics of military drill and has instructed young people in shooting. Can also hit small targets from reasonable distances. And I come with a .410 shotgun.

B) The ability to traverse hostile terrain quickly for cheap. (My hobby was hiking up and down mountains.) I've also camp, so scouting is a good exercise for me.

C) Optics and electronics knowledge. Granted the electronics would be next to useless, but telescopes would be very valuable.

D) Oh yeah, I also know how to fish and know some mechanical stuff.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-13 12:36am

Nova Andromeda wrote:--As I see it this senario is complete overkill unless SD + SB people manage to totally screw themselves.
1. The good guys win even without intervention.

Through sheer luck. In an alternate timeline, we can't count on that.

2. Knowledge of what the future holds in the hands of the good guys is absolutely crippling for the bad guys.

Again, we can't count on that.

3. The firepower held by the SD + SB people in addition to the standard good guys is totally overwhelming. This becomes more true the sooner the good guys move since the bad guys will not have had the time to prepare for war or steal the new tech.

Most of our firepower is not portable. The heavy guns and ammo on the base are explicitly said to be fixed to the base; we can't remove them (yes, I know, this doesn't really make sense, but it's part of the scenario; assume it's some magical restriction). So all we've got is small-arms, some SAW's, grenade launchers, and whatever we can fabricate. It would be unwise to simply go storming in, and we don't want to take ANY casualties if we can avoid it.

--I see several ways in which the SD + SB people could screw themselves.
1. Fail to conduct the proper scientific studies of middle earth physics and adapt plans accordingly. The primary weakness here is uncertainty about people's soul. Do the SD + SB people have them like middle earth people do? Does this mean SD + SB people can be corrupted like many of the people in middle earth were? If so what plans can be enacted to garantee that a small number of undiscovered turncoats won't screw everyone else. For example, what happens if Mike Wong takes the One Ring at some point in order to attempt to melt it? What is the risk that it will corrupt him and allow Sauron to doom everyone?

A scientifically-minded person is probably less corruptible than a superstitious person. Besides, if I had possession of the ring it would be in a test fixture, not hung around my neck and dangling close to my heart. I imagine its power over me would be lessened. And when I'm busy trying to melt it down with thermite, I doubt anyone will try to pick it up.

2. Fail to contact the good guys immediately before any unforseen problems arise and put the mission in jeopardy.

My strategic plan calls for recon and advisory contacts with the good guys, as well as the use of our vehicles to faciliate the movements of the Fellowship.

If Sauron learns of the base and its nature it is a safe bet he will try to take it out and/or take it over. At the very least he will gain some insight into moder tech.

That is highly doubtful. Looking at a Hummer and being able to build your own Hummer are two entirely different things.

3. Fail to secure modern tech. from the enemy and thus allow him to steal it. For example, he may learn all sorts of stuff by using insect and animal spies. If he manages to get ahold of the information in the library somehow that is a real problem. Even just seeing the new equipment gives the enemy valuable information.

Surely you're joking. Imagine this scenario: you take a primitive medieval knight, plop him in the middle of a modern military base and let him look at all the stuff. Then, take him back to his primitive medieval home and say "OK, you've got a year to start building your own military vehicles and firearms like the ones you saw there." What would you expect to find when you come back in a year?

4. Failure to anticipate counter measures. It has been suggested that mustard gas be used against Sauron. This seems like a rather risky venture to me. We know that the enemy has at least some control over the weather. What if he managed to trap some of that gas and then sneak it into the base with magic on a foggy night?

Since the gas dissipates quickly on its own, this won't happen. And there has never been any indication whatsoever that they have such fine control over the weather that they can manipulate pockets of air like that. If they could do that, they could simply weaken and/or suffocate people by lowering the air pressure around them, and we certainly don't see that.

Perhaps even worse, what if he used it on a hummer scouting patrol, but kept the people alive in order to corrupt them for use as spies? Is such a risk worth taking? Consultation with the good guys could of course solve this problem.

I have no idea where you're getting these weird ideas. If he could do these things, the Fellowship would have been completely screwed and dead on the first night.

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2003-02-13 12:39am

Well, I suppose it would painfully obvious that I would be sitting this one out. (Unless if someone decided that I would make a good piece of 'equipment', with all the horror such a term implies.) In this case, I'd like to propose a slight modification to the original scenario posted : in addition to the top 75 posters from each board, they also get a choice of around 5 people that are regulars on each board to go with them. The first reason for this very easily allows other people on the board to be able to try inserting their own talents into the scenario, as well some increased options in terms of talents aviaible.

***

I don't really have too much to contribute that wouldn't be redunant, although one might argue that every drop counts. I have a pretty stout frame and tend to be a bit stronger than average, but my upper body strength isn't all that and my stamina is low. This should change pretty drastically with regular excersize. I consider myself smart mentally, and plan on majoring in math and physics, and tend towards novel solutions to difficult problems. However, I lack follow-through. In addition, I tend to be very shy and can't talk to others very well at all. I rarely let my anger surface, and if a fight breaks out I'm more likely to do nothing, or if I get involved I would probably try to stop it.

***

I also doubt that calculators would be a good thing to bring here. They would be hard to replace when (not merely if) they break down. I propose instead that one might want to work out the calculations by hand, or bring a few slide-rulers. Alot of paper would be nice for this, or even a few slabs of slate and chalk.

***

I suppose I can't add too much to military tactics or strategy, and would have to think a bit more to think of what (and how) technologies we should try duplicating over there. I would like to point out that there is more to that to consider. Who will hold the group together? We already have some military leaders in mind, but few of us have military training and mindset. Even given we still stick together, having people around that can talk and joke would help ease the tension. Having someone that's a good public speaker can do alot for morale. Alliances and trade relations with other powers? Sure, having boomsticks around would get you an answer, but it might not be the answer you want. (Not to mention, it would make us sort of like blackmailers and bandits.) Having someone that can talk and neogiate with other people can spell the difference between being healthy or straving to death in the winter, whether or not their swords are against us or for us.

In conclusion, while people-interactions can be complex to predict or model (compared to say, optimal concentration of firepower) and wouldn't signficantly change long-term strategy or battle tactics that we have in mind (Well, I suppose if we can secure a few alliances.....), I think it would be useful to keep some people in mind as smooth-talkers or potential diplomats.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-13 12:50am

Darth Wong wrote:A scientifically-minded person is probably less corruptible than a superstitious person. Besides, if I had possession of the ring it would be in a test fixture, not hung around my neck and dangling close to my heart. I imagine its power over me would be lessened. And when I'm busy trying to melt it down with thermite, I doubt anyone will try to pick it up.

Hell, if we really want to minimize the risk, persuade Galadriel to grab it and instruct her in the ways of the lab. She appears to be immune to the effects of the One Ring. Elrond or Celeborn should be able to pull this off as well.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-13 01:23am

What kind opf support do we have? Doctors dentists Shrinks for pitys sake??What is our sanitation situation where can we get rid of the crap we make...litterally What about machinists to help keep the vehicles going and mechanics? Batteries and the generators will run out of fuel,though I hear you can run a diesel engine off vegetable oil, also what adout cleaning supplies like soap ,toothpaste and shampoo.

On another note we ill need a supply of salt ,and we will shortly run out of toilet paper,tissues,napkins unless we have cloth ones and TAMPONS.Clean clothing and bathing facilities are a must .

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-13 01:26am

hmm top 200 SB people mean RSA will be tagging along.......should we introduce him to the concept of Fragging?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-13 01:34am

Typhonis 1 wrote:hmm top 200 SB people mean RSA will be tagging along.......should we introduce him to the concept of Fragging?

What difference would it make? He would keep talking and talking and talking and talking even if you put a full clip into him.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2003-02-13 01:35am

How could he talk if he can no longer speak?