SD+SB in Middle Earth

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2003-02-13 01:38am

Hmmmm...... we can dig a moat outside and use that for our sewer system. I'd like to see the orcs try to cross a small river of decades-old collected shit and toxic chemicals. However, this thing would be simply diease waiting to happen and would plunge moral down to zero to anyone that has to deal with it, so you might wonder if it would end up doing more damage to ourselves than to the enemy.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-13 01:38am

If RSA tags along and is an ass.. We drive him out to the middle of the Riddermark and leave him. He can make for Isengard or Rohan or The Misty Mountain or Minas Morgal for all I care.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-02-13 02:00am

Actually RSA could probably be the best distraction for Mordor we could employ.

Imagine plopping him down in the middle of Mordor, telling him he's surrounded by hordes of Rabid Warsies (to his deluded perception, they'd probably look and act like his conception of Warsies), give him a toy phaser and Vulcan ears, and say that Sauron is Darth Wong.

Then we'll get to see how Mordor can manage against the Wall of Ignorance.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-13 02:45am

I think this might be of interest:

http://homepage.mac.com/msb/163x/faqs/mortar_data.html

You can probably have the natives churning out nearly modern mil-spec mortars with not much prep time, even from their tech base, it seems. You can certainly easily build them inside the base. Making ammo for them will be no problem at all.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-02-13 02:51am

Darth Wong wrote:Just a reminder to all the people talking about tanks, artillery, gunships, and APC's: we don't have any of that stuff. All we've got is Hummers and direct-fire weapons like machine-guns and grenade launchers, and we do not have an infinite supply of ammo. So we have to think strategically, rather than attempting to storm in there and crush them with one blow, hence the more cautious plans advocated by myself and several others.

Regarding mustard gas, do we have the means to deliver it?

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2003-02-13 03:17am

Darth Wong wrote: Anyone who doesn't throw himself into the training and learn to work as part of a team would be a blithering idiot.

Hmm I think there will be enough blithering idiots on both boards. Us falling apart
into several small splitter groups is not an unlikely scenario.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-13 03:30am

Vympel wrote:
Regarding mustard gas, do we have the means to deliver it?

Well, in WWI as an initial delivery system, the British just positioned canisters in their own trenches with the appropriate end point towards the enemy, waited for the wind to blow in the right direction, and turned the nozzles. This obviously had drawbacks. I don't think it was used for Mustard, either. Chlorine, however, yes. Possibly also Phosgene.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-13 03:31am

Thunderfire wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Anyone who doesn't throw himself into the training and learn to work as part of a team would be a blithering idiot.
Hmm I think there will be enough blithering idiots on both boards. Us falling apart into several small splitter groups is not an unlikely scenario.

Those who refuse to accept training from the experienced military personnel available would only be digging their own graves.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-02-13 03:45am

Someone want to make a story debate on this?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-13 03:58am

I wouldn't be surprised, actually, if you could make Soman. It's not a very complex nerve agent, and there were actually some fears that despite the massive infrastructure destruction in Afghanistan that the Taliban might have been producing it, though that turned out to be groundless. Combined with the information I posted on mortars, I suspect that you could relatively easily deliver a low-quality nerve agent using mortars: Say, around 180mm or so for pretty good range; the accuracy would be more than sufficient. They wouldn't be man-portable, but a team of donkeys (ignoring the humvees for a moment) could let you take them nearly anywhere. Mustard gas would also be rather nice to deliver this way. I would however prefer Phosgene, which accounted for 80% of all chemical warfare casualties in WWI.

P.S. Tabun might be another possibility but I'd have to think about that. The initial start-up for a manufacturing plant was quite extensive in Germany, but with a modern lab and the knowledge you have it may be a relatively simple process. Do you guys really need a nerve agent, though? Phosgene seems the best bet from my take on it.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-13 04:00am

RSA... Meet the Balrog....

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-02-13 04:10am

Having just now been steered here by the amazing Miss Marina, I will read this, enjoy, and let you know that I'd love to be there, and kitted out quite well. Worked as an Infantry instructor, too, so that can help get things off the ground...

Lemmee catch up 'fore saying any more...

Post by **Edi** » 2003-02-13 04:34am

Regarding training, obviously we'd need to train everyone in modern infantry tactics, but we'd also need to train everyone in fighting against the type of enemies we'd be encountering, and it'd help in practicing against locals in simulated exercises. We have superior firepower, but we cannot assume superior intelligence or predictable response.

As for the need to farm Mike pointed out very early, we don't actually. Sure, we need carbohydrates and fiber in our diet, but there's a ready solution: näkkileipä, which is a form of Finnish hardbread that keeps literally for decades. My father was in the army in the early 1960s, 62 or 63, I think, and their näkkileipä's expiry date was something like 1940, and it was still quite edible. It doesn't even taste bad, so there's one problem solved.

Durandal's list of SDnet draft omits members of the Mess, but no biggie, we're fortunately still invited.

Edi

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-02-13 04:48am

Okay.

My primary skills lie with Infantry and Combat Engineering. I also was an Infantry Instructor for awhile, so with this knowledge I can help. Engineering skills allow us to work with explosives to an extent (I can employ 'em but I don't know how to make 'em although I'm sure we could work up some blackpowder).

As for now, I am a Sergeant with 14 years of experience in the Combat Arms. I'd be bringing my own uniforms, helmet, web gear, weapons, and a personal ammo stock. No probs there, its all personally owned stuff.

Now, the clearing of the forest around the fort (or similar projects) will be a good time for peopel to get fit while plans are laid by the command staff. Others will head out and make contact with friendly locals to supply food, info, nooky and other needs.

WE can make crossbows, catapaults, arbalests, ballistae, and other medieval engines well enough. There will be locals we can hire/cajole/beg to fill in any knowledge we don't have, once we convince the astounded locals that we are here to be friends and not a competitive new realm.

We can brew beer and distill hooch, maybe to bargain with locals. We can build a hot-air balloon and MAYBE a Zeppelin, but we'd have to tear out some of the Humvee motors for propulsion and that seems dicey. After years of working and living in this environment, hunting and growing our own food and going through military drills, even the most Jabba-esque of our groups will be a lean, mean fightin' machine.

Another thing to consider: pre-emptive strike? We know where the ring is; it's at Frodo's. Bust in, take it, and roll into Mordor lightning-fast (or use balloon/zepp) since no army has been raised and indeed, Saruman may still be good and ignore us. Drop-kick the ring in the volcano and end the problem 'fore it starts.

Then I'll go find me a nice Elf girlie...

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-02-13 04:52am

And:

With the time we have, we can train the locals to make muskets, petards, bombasts, etc, and introduce them to the helpfulness of the pungee stick (supply your own poop).

Our own weapons shoudl be Russo/Chinese Kalashnikov types, mostly-- rugged, heavy punching power, parts compatability, and if one of ours drops from something we can train a local in it easy.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-13 05:58am

Okay, ignore that stuff I said last night about miniguns and VX, I was spewing as much badass weaponry as I could at 3am without really thinking it through.

However, when I mentioned VX I was thinking more of throwing the stuff at places we would not be going near for a long time anyway, perhaps Isengard or deep in Mordor. In the gel form it takes longer to dissipate and is indeed corrosive, but if later on we could deliver it then it would be more effective than normal chemical weapons.

Anthrax is a no go, it's not because it is dangerous but because it is really crap unless taken in via inhalation, and it doesn't remain airborne long. It is a panic inducing weapon used by terrorists and is not really all that effective. May as well use Ebola, at least it kills quick enough that it won't spread to us, but I'd advise strongly against that.

As Marina pointed out, we can easily build mortars and use either thermate/thermite, gas or HE with incendiary rounds. We could also see if we could make catapults to lob caskets of boiling oil or some other adhesive or liquid substance that can is flammable or toxic. There are chemicals like Acrylamide monomer that kill on contact since they are highly soluble neurotoxins. If we have latex gloves they are no harm to us, but any dermal contact is lethal and very small amounts can destroy all coordination in the target's CNS.

As for gas, are we sure about phosgene? It can be a psychological weapon, but against Sauron's lot that isn't really all that good, it is ground hugging which only servers to help us which is good, but it can take at least half an hour for major effects to occur unless in high quantities, though it does corrode the eyes and pulmonary tract on the way. I think chlorine is one of the best so far.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-02-13 06:36am

Weapons, I'd go with the Finnish RK-62 (with wooden parts instead of plastic in this case) as standard assault rifle. It's basically a cosmetically very slightly different Kalashnikov clone, with a few minor improvements (e.g. better sights) and better quality, and it's extremely durable.

If the base has a good machine shop, that won't amount to much if we can't get the raw materials to work it, and if we want to benefit from dwarven metallurgy expertise, the base would have to be either near the Blue Mountains (and thus pretty close to the Shire and the Gray Havens) or near Erebor or the Iron Hills, because those are the places where dwarves are found.

Edi

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-13 07:44am

Shinova wrote:Someone want to make a story debate on this?

I've started sketching down a story already...

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-13 07:49am

Ah fuck it, this would be so much easier if we could just hear the immortal words "Ion Cannon ready"...

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-13 07:56am

Well, if it gets as far as number 82 from here coming along, then I'm in...with banned people and the fact I think there is probably some crossover from people on SB on the list?

Well, I'm a shade under 6'
Wairly sturdy build.

My skills:

In years gon by I was something of a pyromaniac, home built rocket launcing systems etc were something of a hobby, improvising such things, mortars etc wouldnt be beyond my capabilities.
I've first year university level chemistry and maths qualifications as well as a lot of random information on all sorts of odd topics.
My most practical skills for this would be 5 years training with all manner of weapons already found in middle earth, I'd be willing to wager money on my HtH skills versus the crew from Mordor. I've also some experience teaching these skills aswell.

As for my backpack :-
Top of my list of items would be a couple of items from some of the best armourers in the world, a well made copy of the "haron wheel" sword design used by deepeeka (thier own one isnt the best made piece, but it is a weapon with great potential) and an all metal version of the stav axe (preferrably with a damascus style blade). Also in my backpack would be a rather well thumbed copy of LotR's and a suit of brigandine style armour made from a mix of high impact plastics and kevlar, something that would be very practical in comabt in middle earth along with matching helmet.

I've skills that would be of use in the lab with the mixing up of chemical weapons, and the skills to train our people in melee combat to a level that if they do run out of ammo/get caught unprepared they wouldnt be slaughtered by the enemy by default.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-13 08:16am

I've just noticed the mention of RSA, and nukes in the thread....

As I recall there is meant to be a hospital in the base...precision grinding equipment is part of the opthalmy department of any hospital......so with quality equipment it is possible to reach the tolerances for a nuke....

As for the idea...who would push the button from 5' away.....hmm......well.....there is RSA isnt there?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-13 08:52am

Don't forget to disclude military people in the top 75 so that they're not counted twice, since it was Top 75 + Military. That will increase the list further. Altogether I actually think we're pushing 400, though it depends on how we count the crossover between the two lists, and also the military people on Spacebattles.

More thoughts: It appears that the most effective form of WWI chemical attack in general was to simultaneously use Phosgene and Chlorine gas. Would it be worthwhile to manufacture both? Could both be used for other purposes as well? I think that Chlorine could be at least, which is a mark in its favour.

As for artillery, you won't have a problem making it. If you have a lathe, then you can produce smoothbore artillery all day long of a bore commiserate to the diameter of the lathe (Well, taking into account the thickness of the barrel). With that number of humvees and the need to make repairs long-term, then the machine shop is sure to have several lathes. Lathes are an industrial instrument which can, interestingly enough, produce more of themselves. So you can make more lathes, and then meet all of your demands for artillery production/repairs.

Heck, set them up to run on water power if you want. You probably have the equipment for precision rifling of the barrel within acceptable tolerances for the early 19th century, for that matter. Ask for clarification on what the machine shop includes (It's not like any of that stuff, albeit at a somewhat smaller size usually, wouldn't be in the garage or shop of the average tool-oriented person in the U.S. at least and probably Canada too).

I would teach any locals you can get on your side how to build the mortars, after manufacturing a few examples and enough for the use of a light battalion. (which with some people who adapt quickly to the idea and the danger and sign on, would probably be the upper limit of strength in the short term. Will also provide spares.) It will not be that hard to bring up their industrial base. Medieval tech of the type Tolkien favoured is quite capable of sustaining the sort of low-grade cast iron production required for mortars, and potentially in a very large scale.

You can start producing cannon in the base, then, and again use those as examples while you get your local allies to build close fascimiles, or whatever they're capable of. They don't need to be fancy. Staved wrought-iron, cast-bronze, whatever gets the job done. For your own I'd go with twelve-pounder Napoleons, which would provide direct fire to compliment the indirect fire of heavier mortars and simple enough for your allies to supply the ammo (very important), possibly even imitate by the time things get going, albeit probably not the more complex aiming mechanisms you can provide for them. The tube on your variant can also consist of basically a lathed barrel of steel or even higher-quality cast iron and it doesn't need to be any fancier. But I'd only do that once you have enough additional personnel to handle them; otherwise, stick to mortars.

In terms of trading technology for food, well... You have an extensive library, right? You don't necessarily need to trade military technology, though if they recognize the same threat it might be wise, needing the numerical support.

Why not trade food technology? These people do live in the middle ages. Improve their watermills and windmills, their grinding stones, their pumps, their plows, uhm... Hrmm. If you can build several reaping machines and lease them out to the surrounding villages, you can free up their manpower for your campaigns (And the amount of labour you'll save will be so considerable they may actually volunteer to fight in payment for it).

Heck, you might be able to build a large enough coalition to defeat Sauron with Middle Earth tech alone simply by introducing agricultural and medical refinements that you could get out of publications produced for improving agriculture and health in third world countries.

I doubt you'd want to trust to that alone, but to be sure of yourselves, I'd recommend taking a dual approach of military buildup, and building alliances with things like agricultural improvement and hygiene improvement - Elves are great symptomatic healers, and cities like Gondor probably have Roman-quality sewer systems, but the average farming village? Things like this have great potential.

I mean, you're going to look like you're filming a Soviet propaganda film, but it's almost certainly goes to work on the average peasant in the Middle Earth (especially since you're not tossing them into Kollektives!).

Once you get them on your side through initiatives like that, you could bring them up as far as possible: early cannon, either arquebuses or perhaps even fusils, and mortars. They'd be a highly motivated force, fighting to defend a massively improved socio-economic condition with chances for further improvements against a tyrannical evil which would regress them into total slavery, with lots of slaughter of their beloved innocents along the way.

Another thought on the military affairs:

To much emphasis on technology, not enough on drill. Coyote, get these slobs out on the field and rigorously train them in bayonet drill until they drop!

I think everyone needs the same type of rifle, and whatever it is, it needs to be long, heavy, and be capable of easily being fitted with a nice triangular bayonet (the kind banned by one of the Hague Conventions - I forgot which - because when it gets pulled out again the suction from the shape rips your guts apart) that's made of high enough quality steel that lower quality armours will have a tough time against it.

I also think that everyone needs to have a breastplate, and possibly other armour - About the same amount a Spanish tercione would have. That may sound odd, but think on this:

At Gumburu, a reconnaissance of two companies of the 2nd King's African Rifles and 48 rifles of the 2nd Sikhs came up with the Mullah's main force, commanded, so it is said, by their chief in person. The fight which ensued appears to have lasted two and a half hours. The Dervishes charged the British square from dense bush some 300 to 600 yards distant, their horsemen and riflemen being driven back time and again with cruel losses. The square was eventually broken by a rush of spearmen, but not before all our ammunition had been exhausted. The Dervish casualties, estimated by some at 2700, are unknown: for no British officer survived to tell the true story of Gumburu. Our casualties were all officers (9) and 187 men killed and 29 men wounded.

The "Mad Mullah's" force at Gumburu was somewhere between 12,000 - 14,000 men. The 2nd King's African Rifles, a black regiment, would have been thought of as third-rate, and the 2nd Sikhs, second rate, by the British of the time - And they probably weren't trained as well. It was an incredible effort of perserverence by both sides, and teaches an important lesson:

Against a fanatical enemy, you must be prepared that they will be able to make it against all possible fire of the rifles to drive home a charge against your lines. At that point you have only one hope, considering your numbers. You must be able to form square and present the burnished ranks of your bayonets to the enemy in good order. You may be out of ammunition, or they may have simply charged in against it. At that point, your survival will depend entirely on an ability to hold rank, to trust entirely upon your comrades to your right and left, and attack and defend in melee with an interest to protecting your comrades and preserving the formation, and according to orders. This requires an iron discipline, steady commanders, and supreme fortitude, combined with exceptionally rigorous training. You must be prepared to forfeit your own will and place your survival utterly in the hands of your unit. That is how you triumph on the field of battle, only, and most surely in such a situation.

Against the book enemies, and most of the movie enemies, if you can maintain such order - and the military men who will be accompanying you can instill it in your whole ranks, as was done to them, and as was done by their forbearers to your forbearers for many generations - then it is not impossible that should a situation arise where you must face a major concentration of the enemy alone, you can close ranks, even on open terrain, and with good ammunition distribution and strict order and readiness to employ the bayonet when the enemy comes to touch, survive, despite tremendous numerical odds.

Only the movie Uruk-Hai have so-far been shown to have the kind of discipline to threaten such a formation in any way except by saturation, and a tight formation of pikes would be rended quite ragged by judicious firing of rifles.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-13 09:16am

Duchess you've touched upon part of my area of epxerties there, close formation fighting with melee weapons, here there are many drills that I have reached the stage of being able to run through in my sleep that would be of great use here.
As regards breastplates, since we can each take some items with us, I thing the armour I suggested might be of more utility against the weapons we would likely face. Brigandine armour has always been a favourite of mine given the durability v. weight that it offers. Kevlar is an exceedingly cut resistant material, using this protects very well against slashing attacks, a mesh of plates of high impact plastic with padding beneath the "vest" would provide good protection against more impact based attacks and overall the weight would be light compared to other possible armours and far more comfortable to wear for long durations.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-13 09:23am

Cyborg Stan wrote:Hmmmm...... we can dig a moat outside and use that for our sewer system. I'd like to see the orcs try to cross a small river of decades-old collected shit and toxic chemicals. However, this thing would be simply diease waiting to happen and would plunge moral down to zero to anyone that has to deal with it, so you might wonder if it would end up doing more damage to ourselves than to the enemy.

Find a conveniently large river that's downhill and run a pipe for the sewage into that. Dump lots and lots of chlorine into the pipe to prevent the spread of disease downriver. There; I've just found a use for chlorine other than as a chemical weapon. Any thoughts on Phosgene?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-13 09:52am

That is a little harder given what it does with contact.

It still seems of more use as a easy to make chemical weapon.