Gaza situation discussion

[bobalot]

Been away for a bit. Can't believe this is still going on, I wonder Israel assumes it can achieve from this slaughter?

[CJvR]

Someone in Hizbstan just fired a few rockets and got shelled in return.

[[R_H]]

BBC reported that Israel has allowed foreign journalists into Gaza, embedded with Israeli troops

[bobalot]

That's as useful as pissing into the wind. I remember the "embedded" journalists in the opening stages of the Iraq war, nothing more than glorified cheerleaders.

[[R_H]]

That's as useful as pissing into the wind. I remember the "embedded" journalists in the opening stages of the Iraq war, nothing more than glorified cheerleaders.

Better footage. Until now the footage out of the Gaza Strip has been from Palestinian news agencies, and what they broadcast is what Hamas allows them to broadcast.

[LaCroix]

On a related topic.

Remembering the last Hizbollah war, how long will the IDF be able to continue fighting this time before ordenance will run out? Last time it was 3 days of heavy bombardement before they had to beg for ammunition from the US, this time they are shooting less intense, but how much did they restock after the war?

[hongi]

Less rearmament and less rockets, arms, mines, bombs and other equipment being smuggled. What do you think .

And that's turned out so wonderfully for Israel.

I don't quibble with the fact that the blockade hindered Hamas, but cutting off food, fuel and electricity sure as heck did not cripple them, whereas it crippled the population.

[[R_H]]

Less rearmament and less rockets, arms, mines, bombs and other equipment being smuggled. What do you think .

And that's turned out so wonderfully for Israel.

I don't quibble with the fact that the blockade hindered Hamas, but cutting off food, fuel and electricity sure as heck did not cripple them, whereas it crippled the population.

It was either ynet or haaratz (sp) who reported that Hamas was stealing aid and then selling it. I think I have the link saved, I'll post it later.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Less rearmament and less rockets, arms, mines, bombs and other equipment being smuggled. What do you think .

And that's turned out so wonderfully for Israel. .

But the terrorists do have far, far less weapons, gear and illegal weapons than they would have otherwise.
You have a perfect solution to replace this "imperfect" one then?

I don't quibble with the fact that the blockade hindered Hamas, but cutting off food, fuel and electricity sure as heck did not cripple them, whereas it crippled the population

Who then put some pressure (albeit a negligible amount) on Hamas.

You have a perfect solution to replace this "imperfect" one then?

[hongi]

I don't know about perfect, but I think I certainly have a better one. Let in food and medical supplies, take military action to take out the tunnels crossing the Egyptian-Gazan border, like they're doing now. Yes, some of the food and medical supplies will inevitably find their way to Hamas, but frankly, I weigh the needs of 1.5 million Gazans more important than depriving Hamas of food and medicine which they hoard already for their own members. Note that I'm not saying Israel should have abandoned the blockade, because the weapons smuggling needs to stop, I just think it could have been applied better.

Here's some more info about taking on those tunnels:

While civilians in southern towns face daily dangers, the missiles have proved an ineffective response to Israel's onslaught. Troops deploying near Gaza can still gather in the open within sight of the territory, confident that any outgoing fire will go over their heads.

A separate network for tunnels straddling Gaza's border with Egypt has been pounded from the air by Israeli war planes. Closing these arteries and stopping the flow of rockets to the group is at the centre of international efforts to secure an Israeli ceasefire.

Israel's cabinet on Wednesday debated the outlines of a five point plan that would put Egypt at the forefront of efforts to squeeze Hamas access to weaponry.

In addition to flooding and booby-trapping stretches of the border, Egypt would accept the assistance of US military engineers to detect underground construction.

Egypt would also beef up its border customs monitoring.

[Broomstick]

Reports of missiles fired from Lebannon into Isreal - at least 3? On TV, so no link

That can't possibly be good for anyone...

[The Grim Squeaker]

I don't know about perfect, but I think I certainly have a better one. Let in food and medical supplies, take military action to take out the tunnels crossing the Egyptian-Gazan border, like they're doing now. Yes, some of the food and medical supplies will inevitably find their way to Hamas, but frankly, I weigh the needs of 1.5 million Gazans more important than depriving Hamas of food and medicine which they hoard already for their own members. ]

Except that humanitarian supplies were (and are being) let in, you idiot.
Humanitarian aid was let in before and during the conflict(s), UN aid, food, supplies, boat loads of volunteers, even electricity from Israel. Just this week There was a multi hour ceasefire to help the Gazans get the aid, in addition to hundreds of trucks that were let in by Israel now even while the rocket attacks are getting worse.
Read more sources you twat.

Reports of missiles fired from Lebannon into Isreal - at least 3? On TV, so no link

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=130357
I already posted this in it's own thread.

[Serafina]

Except that humanitarian supplies were (and are being) let in, you idiot.
Humanitarian aid was let in before and during the conflict(s), UN aid, food, supplies, boat loads of volunteers, even electricity from Israel. Just this week There was a multi hour ceasefire to help the Gazans get the aid, in addition to hundreds of trucks that were let in by Israel now even while the rocket attacks are getting worse.
Read more sources you twat.

Yes, there are supplies going into gaza - otherwise, there woudl have been a tens of thousands of deaths (people need to eat, after all). With ~4000 people/km², Gaza would not survive a month without supplies.

However, supplies WERE blocked - only a small number of supplies trickled to gaza.
Thus, everything was on short supply - food, clothing, medicine. There was virtually no fuel - doesnt sound too bad, until you know that next to all electricity in Gaza is generated from small generators. While Gaza was supplied with electricity, most people need to generate their own (due to bad infrastructure)
Some valid-sounding estaminates say that, without smuggled supplies, the situation in gaza would be as bad as during the Siege of Leningrad in WW2 (it obviously isn't, there would be a way higher deathtoll from starvation etc.).

Since the beginning of the current offensive, the situation was even worse - would YOU go and fetch supplies if there is an ongoing bombardment?
Also, at least two UN-supplytrucks were bombed today (german newslink) DURING a cease-fire.

I think that it is virtully impossible to keep rockets out of Gaza by pure force and blockade.
Some rockets will get in there, as long as there is a significant number of fanatics - even a total blockade has not prevented this.

The solution (and the problem) is political, not military. Israel could keep the rockets away if they left a significant garrision in Gaza - but that would expose their troops to insurgents.

[CJvR]

Also, at least two UN-supplytrucks were bombed today DURING a cease-fire.

The IDF need to shoot their PR officers. Whining about investigations whenever something like this happens is just handing the enemy more ammo. What the IDF needs is more cameras out there to capture Hamas violations of protected buildings and vehicles so they have something to shoot back with in the propaganda war.

Considering that Israel gets it's ass kicked on the PR battlefield as easy as the IDF kicks ass on the real battlefield with great regularity one would think that one day they would come up with a better strategy.

[Coyote]

Considering that Israel gets it's ass kicked on the PR battlefield as easy as the IDF kicks ass on the real battlefield with great regularity one would think that one day they would come up with a better strategy.

They probably write off the propaganda front because they feel it's pointless since everyone knows "the Jews control the media" . Any successful propaganda effort would be seen as "proof" of that.

One of the most tragically "funny" things about all this is how the Palestinians constantly say the news media is biased towards Israel, when Israel and their allies say that the media is biased towards the Palestinians.

I suppose we can take from this that any individual story may have a bias one way or another, but the overall media services probably have no "plan" to portray one or the other in a certain light (except pundit agencies like Fox or al-Jazira), and participants cherry-pick which stories they need to "prove bias".

[Serafina]

The IDF need to shoot their PR officers. Whining about investigations whenever something like this happens is just handing the enemy more ammo. What the IDF needs is more cameras out there to capture Hamas violations of protected buildings and vehicles so they have something to shoot back with in the propaganda war.

Well, this would change nothing - after all, Isreal does not NEED to justify their actions to the rest of the world.
And any kind of "western footage" wouldnt impress arabs, anyway. We perceive their stuff as propaganda, they perceive or stuff as propaganda (oversimplification, i know).

The IDF does not NEED to fight a propaganda war - they have the backup of their own population, and they do not need direct allies - all they need is some funding and some supplies. And the USA is not likely to cut those - after all, they have to deal with terrorist and insurgents themself.

Of course, this CAN backfire - a lot. But this would require some major incident, and why waste resources on something that is not likely to happen?

[hongi]

Except that humanitarian supplies were (and are being) let in, you idiot.

As if I didn't know that. I meant that more humanitarian aid should have flowed into Gaza. You must take me as a total idiot if you thought that I meant Israel was blocking all aid. If that was the case, Gaza would be as quiet as a tomb right now...what with people starving to death in the streets.

Humanitarian aid was let in before and during the conflict(s), UN aid, food, supplies, boat loads of volunteers, even electricity from Israel. Just this week There was a multi hour ceasefire to help the Gazans get the aid, in addition to hundreds of trucks that were let in by Israel now even while the rocket attacks are getting worse.
Read more sources you twat.

Kindly remove your ass from your head. I'm not talking about the current attacks.

[[R_H]]

I think that it is virtully impossible to keep rockets out of Gaza by pure force and blockade.
Some rockets will get in there, as long as there is a significant number of fanatics - even a total blockade has not prevented this.

The solution (and the problem) is political, not military. Israel could keep the rockets away if they left a significant garrision in Gaza - but that would expose their troops to insurgents.

You would support a garrison in Gaza, what creating a buffer zone that extends, let's say 5km (wide enough that it would be extremely difficult to dig smuggling tunnels into Egypt) from the Gazan-Egyptian border into the Gaza Strip? Open the border a few hours a day to let people through, and the rest of the time Hamas would be busy attacking the garrison there, instead of targets in Israel (hopefully). Only problem would be suicide bombers on the border crossing checkpoints.

[eyl]

The IDF need to shoot their PR officers. Whining about investigations whenever something like this happens is just handing the enemy more ammo. What the IDF needs is more cameras out there to capture Hamas violations of protected buildings and vehicles so they have something to shoot back with in the propaganda war.

Considering that Israel gets it's ass kicked on the PR battlefield as easy as the IDF kicks ass on the real battlefield with great regularity one would think that one day they would come up with a better strategy.

The IDF has been releasing quite a bit of footage showing rockets launched from civilian buildings, mosques, secondary explosions after "civilian" buildings were bombed, etc. I don't know how much play these have gotten on foreign news, though.

[Edi]

Some secondary explosions are bound to be caused by simply gas pipes and such, though no doubt there are arms caches as well.

[Master of Ossus]

The solution (and the problem) is political, not military. Israel could keep the rockets away if they left a significant garrision in Gaza - but that would expose their troops to insurgents.

They already did that. Israel occupied Gaza and the West Bank for decades. Withdrawal was, actually, seen as a major move in the peace process because it gave the Palestinians land and territory that they could legitimately call their own.

[folti78]

Some secondary explosions are bound to be caused by simply gas pipes and such, though no doubt there are arms caches as well.

Or gas-cylinders/gas bottles if they lack a piped gas distribution system. Larger ones, like the 11,5 or 22kg ones used in Hungary(example) can pack a some boom.

[eyl]

Some secondary explosions are bound to be caused by simply gas pipes and such, though no doubt there are arms caches as well.

Perhaps, though usually you see a number of secndary explosion rather than one big one I'd expect from gas going off.

One intersting thing seen is due to the tunnels they've built between some of the houses, for escape if under attack and for storing munitions. You can see the initial house struck and then a secondary explosion somewhere else (out the other end of the tunnel).

[Bounty]

UN suspends Gaza aid after attack by IDF

The UN has said it is suspending aid operations in Gaza because its staff have been hit by Israeli attacks.

The suspension would continue "until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security", the UN said.

The international Red Cross has also accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

Meanwhile, the US, UK and France have dropped opposition to a UN resolution urging an immediate ceasefire, and Arab nations are studying a draft.

The US, UK and France had wanted a weaker statement from the UN Security Council, the BBC's Laura Trevelyan in New York says.

But Arab foreign ministers said anything less than a binding resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire would be an inadequate response to the crisis, our correspondent says.

If the Arab nations' response to the draft resolution is positive, a vote could happen later.

The draft calls for an immediate ceasefire, action to stop the smuggling of arms by Hamas across the Egypt-Gaza border and the opening of border crossings into Gaza so aid can be delivered.

'Great regret'

Responding to the suspension of UN aid efforts, Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel fully supported the work of the UN and other humanitarian agencies in Gaza.

"We will do what needs to be done to facilitate this vital work," he said. "In these difficult days we must work together to meet the humanitarian needs of the population."

The UN's move came shortly after it said one person had been killed and two hurt when a fork-lift truck on a UN aid mission came under Israeli tank fire at Gaza's Erez crossing.

The UN's relief agency Unwra said it was "with great regret" that it had been forced to make a difficult decision.

"We have suspended our operations in Gaza until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security," said Unwra spokesman Chris Gunness.

"Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities and that all our movements are co-ordinated with the Israeli army."

The UN said the movements of the truck hit at the Erez crossing had been co-ordinated and cleared with the Israeli military.

The Israeli army has not commented on that claim but has said it is looking into the matter.

In a statement, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon condemned the Israeli military's action.

John Ging, director of operations in Gaza for Unwra, said a convoy of two UN vehicles and an ambulance had also been fired at - although it was not clear by whom - despite having clearance for its movements from Israel.

The incident occurred as Israel for a second day suspended its military operation for three hours to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza, he said.

Mr Ging said the Israeli military had to give his staff a credible guarantee of safety.

"If they give us clearance to move then it is wholly and totally unacceptable that their soldiers on the ground are firing on our aid workers," he said.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said its staff had found four weak and scared children beside their mothers' bodies in houses hit by shelling in Zeitoun.

The Israeli military has not yet responded to the accusation, but said it worked closely with aid groups so that civilians could get assistance.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International accused both Israel and Hamas of using civilians as human shields.

Air strikes

The aid agencies' concerns come amid fears the conflict with Gaza militants may spread, with at least three rockets fired from Lebanon into northern Israel, prompting Israel to reply with artillery.

The incident followed the heaviest bombardment so far of Gaza in nearly two weeks of conflict, with 60 air strikes which Israel says targeted Hamas facilities.

Palestinian medical officials said at least 10 Gaza residents had been killed on Thursday.

A further 35 bodies were discovered in rubble in conflict areas around Gaza City during the three-hour pause in fighting, a health ministry official said.

More than 750 Palestinian and 11 Israeli lives are said to have been lost since the offensive began 13 days ago.

Amid continuing efforts to broker a ceasefire, a senior Israeli official has gone to Cairo to hear details of a plan put forward by Egypt and France.

A Hamas delegation is expected in the Egyptian capital at some stage for parallel "technical" talks, Egyptian diplomats said.

At least three Katyusha rockets were fired from southern Lebanon into the northern Israeli area of Nahariya early on Thursday. One hit a nursing home, injuring at least two people.

Israel immediately responded with five artillery shells into Lebanon, calling it a "pinpoint response at the source of fire".

The rocket fire was condemned by Lebanon's prime minister. A senior Hezbollah politician, Lebanon's energy minister, said the militant group was not responsible for the attacks.

Casualty claims in Gaza have been difficult to verify independently.

While the BBC's Palestinian producers have been reporting from Gaza, Israel allowed Western TV crews to enter only on Wednesday, embedded with its army.

I wonder what sort of confusion could lead to a UN ambulance getting shot by a tank.

[[R_H]]

Amnesty International accused both parties involved in the conflict of using civilians as human shields?

How, and since when is Israel using civilians as human shields?