SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Enforcer Talen]

read. above. post.

[Ren]

rangers could track us, Im sure. but automatic weapon fire is a nasty thing, if necessary.

Im hopin they wont track us - I mean, what did we do? any record of us arriving, reason for us being there, knowledge of our theft? frodo looks at it once a year or less. no problem.

So now your killing our allys that will go over well I'm sure. Yes their will be a record of your arriving the land's are civilized for miles around, bag-end is in the middle of a city. You need to ask for directions to help you find bag-end unless you plan on just wandering around untell you stumble on it. If Frodo isn't checking it but once a year or so then how do you know where it is, you may have to spend hours tearing his house apart to find it, he would certianly notice that.

He keeps it in his damn coat pocket.

Either he keeps it in his pocket, or he checks it only once a year, he can't do both.

[Enforcer Talen]

well, I obviously could be wrong. let me go forth and look in the book.

[SirNitram]

At the risk of suggesting something that does not put us on bad terms with the heros, we contact Gandalf in Gondor during his research. Many hands make light work, and the Similrillian in our packs will speed things up.

[Ren]

How tall are you? If you are over 4 feet you will stick out like a sore thumb in Hobbiton espically during this early time period, If you are going through Bree then they will probably reconize you to. Any good at hiding your tracks? Strider is one of the best trackers on the planet. The Shire is constantly being watched by the Rangers. Why risk it all just for the thrill of stealing something? You can probably convince them to help you and Gandalf would make a powerful ally.

You're missing the goddamn point. We break in during the night with camouflage that helps hide us as we sneak into Frodo's house and covertly take the Ring. Is that better?

Then he discovers it missing and you have a probable, additionaly ringwraiths don't wear camo.

Sorry for the mix ups but I am trying to keep up with two diffrent people who are arguing diffrent things and by the time I have finished one post you have posted alot more.

[Ren]

At the risk of suggesting something that does not put us on bad terms with the heros, we contact Gandalf in Gondor during his research. Many hands make light work, and the Similrillian in our packs will speed things up.

I have a better idea, be at Bilbo's party. We can prove it to him by tossing it into the fire. Additionaly it saves us years of time, and a journy from Gondor to the Shire.

[Enforcer Talen]

so it's missing. so what? it's a ring. big deal.

and, can one isolated hobbit tell the difference between nazgul and commandos? both big, creepy people in black. we can bring large daggers, if we must.

it will be years before gandalf hears about it.

[Enforcer Talen]

At the risk of suggesting something that does not put us on bad terms with the heros, we contact Gandalf in Gondor during his research. Many hands make light work, and the Similrillian in our packs will speed things up.

I have a better idea, be at Bilbo's party. We can prove it to him by tossing it into the fire. Additionaly it saves us years of time, and a journy from Gondor to the Shire.

why prove it? we know what it is. let's run with it.

[Ren]

-snickers- that's absurd. hey, gandalf, give us this one ring which ensnares the weilder and dominates the world. no, let's just break in while frodo is asleep, and stroll off with the ring. he doesnt look at it.

Oh yeah, that's going to work, so you break into Bag End, now what? Do you know where he keeps the Ring? How about where he sleeps and wether or not he's a light sleeper, What if he keeps the ring under his pillow? There are about a billion things that could go wrong and one of them probably will. No the best bet is to ask Frodo and Gandalf to come with us.

I think you're seriously overestimating the resistive will of Hobbits. Gandalf will be out and about wandering around Middle Earth by the time we actually manage to establish ourselves and properly train everyone to be soldiers. What are we supposed to do? Waste valuable resources running around looking for him so we can get his permission to take the Ring?

We can't ask Frodo to come with us by peace; he'd never agree to it without Gandalf's say-so. The only solution is to break in under cover of nightfall, take the Ring and run off. Frodo could never possibly resist, and he knows nothing about the outside world, much less us. He couldn't tell Gandalf who took it.

With the Ring in our possession, Sauron will literally have no fucking clue where to search for the Ring. He still thinks it's in the Shire. When the Nine come knocking, they'll be soarly disappointed.

We could also break in, leave a note addressed to Gandalf, telling him where the Ring is, that it's safe and that he should ride to our base as soon as he can. Of course, that would give the Nine a piece of evidence telling them exactly where the Ring is when they come barging into the Shire, so I'd recommend against it. The best course of action is to simply snatch up the Ring sometime after Bilbo's birthday party.

That way, we take possession of it early on and have more than 10 years to decide what to do with it, experiment with it and try and destroy it with our own means. If those means fail, we try and think of a good way to get it into Mount Doom. In the meantime, we encase it in a 2-ton steel block and let it sit in our base, under our protection. If we can't think of a surefire way to deliver it to Mount Doom, we send embassies to Rivendel, inform Elrond of the situation and go from there.

Assuming that we can destroy the Ring with our technology (not unlikely), this scenario is the simplest way of doing things. The only military operation would be breaking into the Shire to steal the Ring, and that is an extremely low-risk operation. We could conceivably win the whole thing with zero casualties. If that means making Gandalf grumpy, so be it. Our lives come first.

You are talking about it early on, Sauron has no idea the ring has even been found yet, additionaly Gandalf vists the Shire regularly during these years so we could simply wait for him to show up. Or if your impateint just pick a time to go to the shire when we know he will be there like the birthday party or one of the date's mentioned in the book.

The problem with Gandalf grumpy is that it means half the world is grumpy, the half of the world that would have helped us.

[Sea Skimmer]

At the risk of suggesting something that does not put us on bad terms with the heros, we contact Gandalf in Gondor during his research. Many hands make light work, and the Similrillian in our packs will speed things up.

I have a better idea, be at Bilbo's party. We can prove it to him by tossing it into the fire. Additionaly it saves us years of time, and a journy from Gondor to the Shire.

So we wait till the war is months from beginning, and then risk Gandalf refusing to let us have it forcing a fight, which is quite likely. No I think that plan sucks, in basically every respect.

[Enforcer Talen]

grumpy with who? it's been stolen. yep. who knows it's us?

[Ren]

so it's missing. so what? it's a ring. big deal.

and, can one isolated hobbit tell the difference between nazgul and commandos? both big, creepy people in black. we can bring large daggers, if we must.

it will be years before gandalf hears about it.

Frodo knows it's magical, the authorities know it is a valuble family heirloom, additionally he can say you stole some of the vast wealth he supposibly has. If you go the big creepy people in black route then you will have the rangers after you.

Gandalf may hear about it in years or he may decide to visit tomorrow, you don't know, he may even be their when you attack.

[Ren]

At the risk of suggesting something that does not put us on bad terms with the heros, we contact Gandalf in Gondor during his research. Many hands make light work, and the Similrillian in our packs will speed things up.

I have a better idea, be at Bilbo's party. We can prove it to him by tossing it into the fire. Additionaly it saves us years of time, and a journy from Gondor to the Shire.

So we wait till the war is months from beginning, and then risk Gandalf refusing to let us have it forcing a fight, which is quite likely. No I think that plan sucks, in basically every respect.

Biblbo's party is in one year the war is 18 what are you talking about?

[Enforcer Talen]

which is why we send in one normal human without gear to learn where bagend is and if gandalf is there.

read. above. posts.

[Sea Skimmer]

so it's missing. so what? it's a ring. big deal.

and, can one isolated hobbit tell the difference between nazgul and commandos? both big, creepy people in black. we can bring large daggers, if we must.

it will be years before gandalf hears about it.

Frodo knows it's magical, the authorities know it is a valuble family heirloom, additionally he can say you stole some of the vast wealth he supposibly has. If you go the big creepy people in black route then you will have the rangers after you.

Gandalf may hear about it in years or he may decide to visit tomorrow, you don't know, he may even be their when you attack.

WTF are you smoking? No one but Frodo, Gandalf, Bilbo and Golum know the ring is there.

[Ren]

At the risk of suggesting something that does not put us on bad terms with the heros, we contact Gandalf in Gondor during his research. Many hands make light work, and the Similrillian in our packs will speed things up.

I have a better idea, be at Bilbo's party. We can prove it to him by tossing it into the fire. Additionaly it saves us years of time, and a journy from Gondor to the Shire.

why prove it? we know what it is. let's run with it.

You are going to battle so the first thing you do is shot yourself in the leg and throw away your weapon. Does that sound sane to you because that is what you are suggesting.

[Ren]

so it's missing. so what? it's a ring. big deal.

and, can one isolated hobbit tell the difference between nazgul and commandos? both big, creepy people in black. we can bring large daggers, if we must.

it will be years before gandalf hears about it.

Frodo knows it's magical, the authorities know it is a valuble family heirloom, additionally he can say you stole some of the vast wealth he supposibly has. If you go the big creepy people in black route then you will have the rangers after you.

Gandalf may hear about it in years or he may decide to visit tomorrow, you don't know, he may even be their when you attack.

WTF are you smoking? No one but Frodo, Gandalf, Bilbo and Golum know the ring is there.

And Merry and Pippen and Sam. If Frodo want's the authorities on his side he can say a valuble family heirloom was stolen and his friends can back him. I am sorry if that wasn't very clear I am trying to rapidly responed to two people at once.

[Durandal]

Oh, and I forgot to mention this. Say we send a commando unit to the Shire, dressed in black. When Gandalf eventually does show back up, he'd give a vague description of who took the Ring to Gandalf, and that description would sound a good deal like the Nine to him. If we're lucky, Gandalf would assume that the Enemy has the Ring but be confounded as to why Sauron hasn't done anything yet. No doubt he'd be running around telling everyone that Sauron has his jewelry back and trying to form an army to march on Mordor. With everyone's attention diverted over there, we could just sit back and relax for a while.

You forget that Gandalf is wearing one of the Three if Sauron really did have it Gandalf would know it, framing Sauron won't work.

So he'll automatically jump to the conclusion that a group of 400 people from another world with superior technology with a base set up wherever we decide to make our base took it? Framing Sauron is just a potential bonus. Even if he doesn't think that Sauron took it, he's still got no clue who did.

If you do this how are you planning to generate the fear effect that accompaines the Ringwraiths?

If someone broke into your house, wouldn't you be scared? How is Gandalf going to know that Frodo shit himself because of the Nine of because of automatic weapons pointed at his head?

And how are you going to find Bag-End in the first place? If you ask around he will know you aren't Ringwraiths unless you are really good actors.

It's called reconnaissance. Are you at all familiar with standard military procedures?

Why steal the ring at all? What possible advantage does that give you over asking for them to accompany you?

I explained this already. Gandalf is gone for seventeen years. Frodo would never come with us willingly. There's no reason to waste resources trying to hunt Gandalf down. Ergo, we steal the fucking thing. It is the most strategically wise thing to do.

If we leave the Ring with Frodo, Sauron knows who has it and where he is.
If we take Frodo with us, Sauron knows who has it, but no idea where he is.
If we steal the Ring, Sauron has no idea who has the Ring and no idea where we are.

The third scenario leaves Sauron flailing about in ignorance. The other two give him insight into where the Ring is. The third one is therefore, the most preferable situation. There's no reason for us to hang around waiting for Gandalf to return to the Shire just to ask him to come with us. We'll have wasted our 17 year advantage by then. There's no reason to send people out looking for Gandalf; that could take fucking forever.

If we steal the Ring, no one will know we have it, so how the fuck can they bring their wrath down on us?

As for rangers tracking us ... sure, whatever. They have to know that they should be tracking something first. You think Strider is just hanging around the Shire waiting for Frodo to come and tell him that he needs to start tracking some thieves?

The only real challenge to this plan is making sure the commandos get the Ring back to base without having fallen under its influence. That is solved easily enough by taking a small metal box along and welding it shut with the Ring inside.

[Sea Skimmer]

I have a better idea, be at Bilbo's party. We can prove it to him by tossing it into the fire. Additionaly it saves us years of time, and a journy from Gondor to the Shire.

why prove it? we know what it is. let's run with it.

You are going to battle so the first thing you do is shot yourself in the leg and throw away your weapon. Does that sound sane to you because that is what you are suggesting.

Gandalf is still going to fight Mordor, and the Hobbits and Rangers contribution was minor, far less then our arsenal of rifles, chemical weapons and artillery would be. Securing the ring is far more important then them.

[Ren]

which is why we send in one normal human without gear to learn where bagend is and if gandalf is there.

read. above. posts.

Oh sure Frodo gets robbed and they don't connect that to some stranger in town asking about him and whether or not he has any friends staying with him.

[Sea Skimmer]

which is why we send in one normal human without gear to learn where bagend is and if gandalf is there.

read. above. posts.

Oh sure Frodo gets robbed and they don't connect that to some stranger in town asking about him and whether or not he has any friends staying with him.

That connection get them what? Nothing at all. We have no reason to return to the Shire unless we attempt to buy ships from the Elves, in which case we just send a different person.

[Durandal]

which is why we send in one normal human without gear to learn where bagend is and if gandalf is there.

read. above. posts.

Oh sure Frodo gets robbed and they don't connect that to some stranger in town asking about him and whether or not he has any friends staying with him.

Why bother asking around? Just set up a reconnaissance position with our nifty things called binoculars and look for fucking Elijah Wood running around. We've got plenty of time. You're being needlessly difficult about all this.

[Ren]

Oh, and I forgot to mention this. Say we send a commando unit to the Shire, dressed in black. When Gandalf eventually does show back up, he'd give a vague description of who took the Ring to Gandalf, and that description would sound a good deal like the Nine to him. If we're lucky, Gandalf would assume that the Enemy has the Ring but be confounded as to why Sauron hasn't done anything yet. No doubt he'd be running around telling everyone that Sauron has his jewelry back and trying to form an army to march on Mordor. With everyone's attention diverted over there, we could just sit back and relax for a while.

You forget that Gandalf is wearing one of the Three if Sauron really did have it Gandalf would know it, framing Sauron won't work.

So he'll automatically jump to the conclusion that a group of 400 people from another world with superior technology with a base set up wherever we decide to make our base took it? Framing Sauron is just a potential bonus. Even if he doesn't think that Sauron took it, he's still got no clue who did.

He will attempt to find out and that will lead him to you.

If you do this how are you planning to generate the fear effect that accompaines the Ringwraiths?

If someone broke into your house, wouldn't you be scared? How is Gandalf going to know that Frodo shit himself because of the Nine of because of automatic weapons pointed at his head?

I was think more allong the lines of people you were talking to to get directions to his house. If you are not going to be disquised when you do this then they will remember you and your sharade is off.

And how are you going to find Bag-End in the first place? If you ask around he will know you aren't Ringwraiths unless you are really good actors.

It's called reconnaissance. Are you at all familiar with standard military procedures?

[sarcastic] I wasn't aware that you had stealth suits that let you move invisbly though cities without leaving a trace. [/sarcastic] You have to talk to someone I doubt sneaking around town reading adresses would work.

Why steal the ring at all? What possible advantage does that give you over asking for them to accompany you?

I explained this already. Gandalf is gone for seventeen years. Frodo would never come with us willingly. There's no reason to waste resources trying to hunt Gandalf down. Ergo, we steal the fucking thing. It is the most strategically wise thing to do.

If we leave the Ring with Frodo, Sauron knows who has it and where he is.

No he doesn't he won't have this information for another 18 years.

If we take Frodo with us, Sauron knows who has it, but no idea where he is.

Not for another 18 years.

If we steal the Ring, Sauron has no idea who has the Ring and no idea where we are.

Which he has no idea of already.

The third scenario leaves Sauron flailing about in ignorance. The other two give him insight into where the Ring is. The third one is therefore, the most preferable situation. There's no reason for us to hang around waiting for Gandalf to return to the Shire just to ask him to come with us. We'll have wasted our 17 year advantage by then. There's no reason to send people out looking for Gandalf; that could take fucking forever.

Gandalf is their at the night of the party, he is their at other specific dates, he vists regularly, there is no reason to go looking for him.

If we steal the Ring, no one will know we have it, so how the fuck can they bring their wrath down on us?

They will attempt to learn who has taken it. Gandalf already suspects it is the One Ring, he will look into it.

As for rangers tracking us ... sure, whatever. They have to know that they should be tracking something first. You think Strider is just hanging around the Shire waiting for Frodo to come and tell him that he needs to start tracking some thieves?

The shire is guarded by rangers at all times. One of the area's most prominent citzens being robbed will be big news they will look into it.

The only real challenge to this plan is making sure the commandos get the Ring back to base without having fallen under its influence. That is solved easily enough by taking a small metal box along and welding it shut with the Ring inside.

That and that you could potential allinating your entirt list of allies for no good reason.

[Ren]

why prove it? we know what it is. let's run with it.

You are going to battle so the first thing you do is shot yourself in the leg and throw away your weapon. Does that sound sane to you because that is what you are suggesting.

Gandalf is still going to fight Mordor, and the Hobbits and Rangers contribution was minor, far less then our arsenal of rifles, chemical weapons and artillery would be. Securing the ring is far more important then them.

The rangers contributions were not minor. Strider lead the army of the Rangers throught out the Return of the king. He is the King. The rangers turned the tide at gondor with the help of the southern armies. The ring may be secured without alientaing them quite easily, I think we should do it. Gandalf will have 18 years to look for the you and attempt to stop you a think he will be able to cause just about everyone to turn against you during that time.

[Durandal]

OK Ren, let me outline our respective plans for you, with timeframes included.

c. 1 year before Bilbo's birthday party:
We arrive in Middle Earth and begin setting up our base and training everyone.

c. Bilbo's birthday party:
We have everyone trained in basic firearms and marksmanship.
Bilbo leaves the Shire.
Frodo gets the Ring.
Gandalf runs off to research the Ring.

c. 1 year after Biblo's birthday:
We now have fully-trained soldiers and a commando unit to send into the Shire.
We begin making preparations to steal the Ring. We study the layout of Frodo's house and possibly construct a replica of it to drill the infiltration team through the mission.
We send agents into the Shire posing as human travelers. They walk around and locate Frodo's house. They make rough maps and take pictures.
We use the agents' intelligence to fully plan out the operation on the Shire.
We drill the operation more.
We send the commando team into the Shire. They wait for cover of nightfall and for a night when Frodo goes out to the local bar drinking. While he's gone, they break in, locate the Ring and steal it. If Frodo keeps it on him, they wait for a night when he goes out to a bar, come back home drunk and break in, stealing the Ring. They make minimal noise and chloroform Frodo so that he doesn't raise the alarm until morning, when they'll be long-gone.
The commandoes return with the Ring, and we do what we wish with it.

In other words, we have possession of the Ring with more than 10 years to spare before Sarumon's betrayal takes full-swing and he begins building up his army and before the Nine begin looking for the Ring. In other words, we can potentially destroy the Ring with our own technology with a casualty rate of zero. Furthermore, we can all go back home before we've turned old and decrepit.

You, on the other hand, would have us sit on our asses, wasting time trying to track down Gandalf, which would lengthen our stay in Middle Earth and increase the probability of casualties by delaying the Ring's destruction. With your scenario, we could potentially go to war. With mine, the risk of war is extremely low. Who's sounds better, again?