[Edited for clarity] How did I do in this debate?

[Invictus ChiKen]

I argued with a friend over well it went from why he was voting Republican to all over the place. So on a scale of one to ten, ten being the highest how did I do?

Where did I mess up and how could I have done better?

Michael came into the Catholic Church when I did and has become more fantaically loyal.

Rusty = me everyone knows my on again off again issues. Like a guy trying to kick a bad habbit.

Michael started off by talking about which party he is voting for

Michael: actually I am voting for the Republican nominee because he represents the Republican party and I believe in the Republican Party. The Republican Party is the pro-life party that stands for the traditional family and this is why I am voting Republican in November

Rusty: what about the death penalty?

At this point we started talking about the death penalty

Rusty: And the fact the tubes tieing thing I told you about is being backed by and proposed by the Republicans? (This being the case of a Republican senator in Louisiana paying poor people $1,000.00 to get there tubes tied. Remember Catholics are against sterilization and anything not resulting in the birth of baby Catholics).

Michael: even the Catholic Church says there are instances where the death penalty is necessary...

Rusty: But have you read what the Catheism says about those instances being so rare to be negliagble? Not to mention the high number of executed that later turn out to be innocent.

Michael: the Republican Party is the closest party I know of that is on the ballot in our state that aligns itself with interests of the Catholic Church, the Republican Party aligns it self much MUCH closer than it does the Democratic Party.
You know there have only been like a 1000 public executions in the United States or at least by death penalty in prison anyway. I know a lot of people were hanged in the wild west.

Rusty: We execute more a year than most other nations

Michael: But not that many though like maybe 10 or 20 but the Democratic Party wants to make it possible to add to the 45 million unborn babies that have been executed publicly.

Rusty: you have a funky idea of public execution as for your maybe 10 pr 20 number the death rates are 24 so far this year 42 last year. 1,119 since 1976. Give me a few minutes and I'll find out how many were later found innocent. Note: These numbers from a fast google never did get a chance to find the numbers of innocents executed.

Michael: those 45+ million unborn babies were executed legally 24 henious criminals vs. several million unborn babies

Here Michael tries to switch over to homosexuality, I turn it into why should the Catholic Church get to dictate how we live our lives

Michael: the Democratic Party also wants everyone to accept homosexuality publically and to treat them like regular members of society

Rusty: I'm all for it. Seems wrong for everyone to live according to the teachings of a Church they do not belong to

Michael: But they are all meant to belong to the Church for God created them all

Rusty: An Islam says the same thing we are all meant to be Muslim. Should we stop eating pork?

Michael: no

Rusty: Why not?

Michael: Islam was made up by a single human being who claimed to have "visions" from Gabriel in a cave

Rusty: By your own logic we should. They got a holy book saying it is the one true faith, they got lots of scholars backing them just like the Church does. (This is from past debates where it came down to the Catholic Church is right because the Catholic Church says so).

Michael: this person, Muhammad, was able to convince people to follow him; he is known as one of the greatest emporers

Rusty: Should we make everyone follow Orthodox teachings or Protestant?

Michael: no

Rusty: So why only Catholic?

Michael: Protestantism and Islam have a lot in common. Protestantism and Islam were both made up on the spot by a single human being. Whereas Jesus Christ made the Catholic Church to which the Orthodox wanted to split themselves and the Pope cut them off

Rusty: Really ask there members and they will tell you different and the Orthodox also will say Catholics are the First Protestants

Michael: of course they will

Michael almost quite the Catholic Church for the Orthodox Church so I decided to toss a lot of his own arguments for Orthodoxy right back at him

Rusty: So why are you right and they wrong? They have history and scholars backing them up. An the Orthodox are getting more vocations than they can handle (That is while Catholic Priest, monks and nuns are dieing out the Orthodox have no problems finding people wanting that life style.

Michael:: then why do they have so few seminaries let alone can't agree on who has jurisdiction of America and Constantinople does not even recognize the Orthodox Church of America.

Rusty: An Catholics can't even agree on a host of issues themselves and you know this heck try getting a Catholic to follow Christ command to bear witness and see what you get. Nine times out of ten they will go for the most minimalistic approach. Usually a hail mary and call it square.

Michael: that is the result of the Second Vatican Counsel distorting the teachings of the Church in the 70s and 80s. The children of those people are starting to really learn about the faith. Some of those people are now devout as well as their families and I know many a Protestant who is minimalistic as well

Rusty: The Church has not been the same since they stopped using military force to keep it in power

Michael: The Church had authority only over the Papal States for the longest time. Yes there were also the Crusades but that is another issue. Then there is the Spanish Inquisition which was about Spain wanted to make sure the country was Catholic

Rusty: Like Joan of Arc using the threat of it (military force) to force a heretical sect to return to the fold. When the Muslims do it we call it barbaric, when Catholics do so it is holy and just. No more spears at people's backs now all that is left is fear of hell to keep people in line and even that is failing rapidly

Michael: they lived in a society in which that heretical sect would have posed danger to society at large. do not forget that at one time the US government signed an extermination order against Mormons; that every citizen was required by law to kill a Mormon if they encountered one

Rusty: Yeap and now Christians can not use threat of death to stay in power. So now they have to compete with other faiths and Christianity just can not do it. So there headed to the third world to try and win converts there and as the third world gains access to competing information the Churches there start to die.

Michael: you look at the Church as if it is some bloody institution that wants to control everything and everybody with the Pope as a one world leader...why do you hold this view

Rusty: History bares it out and do not forget dispite what they say now the ideal Catholic goverment is a Catholic Monarchy underwhich Catholicism is the only legal religion and the one of the Popes titles is King of the World. (Not from a Chick Tract form a Catholic Group that is in good standing with Rome that tried to recruit me)

Michael: who is "they"

Rusty: Why the United Church of Christ of course *chuckles* The Catholic Church who else? An you yourself said that everyone should be made to follow Catholic teachings on homosexuality

Michael: Its hard to believe you remember everything I say.

Here I copied and pasted back what Michael said

Rusty: (4:30:52 PM) garou1982: Seems wrong to for everyone to live according to the teachings of a Church they do not belong to "Michael: but they are all meant to belong to the Church for God created them all"

Rusty: How else do you explain your response to this Why not just let everyone live in accordance to there faith or lack there of so long as A) They harm no one else and B) They contribute back to society?

At this point we hit the meat of it Michael's argument for Catholicism to become the law of the land like how Islam is in some Middle Eastern Nations

Michael: yes they do harm people. they convince Catholics to leave their faith and also it does not allow Catholics to make converts out of non-Catholics for you forget about the Great Commission

Rusty: I didn't say you can't invite people to Church and hand out literature. Just that it wont be a Catholics only privalge. For that matter it wouldn't be a Christians only privalge.
Heck even door to door but you'd have to respect no religious solication signs and if they say leave, leave. But again this wouldn't be a Christians only privalge.

Michael: uh huh...I don't like secular society

Rusty: So what would be your ideal society?

Michael: I am just telling you after living here at FMU I don't like secular society

Rusty: What do you dislike about it? What about it would you change if you could?

Michael: the vulgarity

Rusty: Can you expand on this?

Michael: the way people dress, the music, the culture of people, the language, the violence, and the absence of God in general

Rusty: So you'd prefer a dress code in socety, laws controling music and what prayers before class, maditory rosaries and a law forbidding the sell of meat on Fridays of Lent? Perhaps a green scapular and miraculous medal built into every dorm room (Note: This are Sacramentals they basicly act like magic charms to force people to become Catholics) and a ban on tarot cards and new age books?

Michael: lol something like that

Rusty:: Guess your not to big on the first amendment of the constitution then

Michael: not really but America was not founded to be a Christian nation either

Rusty: At least you admit that, not many Republicans will.

Michael: well I have to go and get ready for the Knights of Columbus dinner tonight

Rusty: Okay then

Hope this is easier to follow. Despite his promise he has told everyone in the ground I've left and there praying for my conversion again.

[Kanastrous]

There has just got to be some format that would make that less hellish, to try and read through.

[Invictus ChiKen]

Well it was done through AIM and I did try to clean that up but that's the best I can do. Any suggestions?

[Kanastrous]

Nothing constructive.

I'll slog through it again for comprehension, but there are better minds around here to evaluate the exchange, than mine.

[Invictus ChiKen]

Nothing constructive.

I'll slog through it again for comprehension, but there are better minds around here to evaluate the exchange, than mine.

Okays thank you anyway. I've thought about editing it some more and maybe adding bolded titles for when the debate changed i.e. "This is were we went from the death penalty and abortion kills 45 million babies to enforce Catholicism and make it illegal to practice anything else."

[Feil]

Delete the timestamps and color code the speakers.

[Invictus ChiKen]

Delete the timestamps and color code the speakers.

Done I also added some commentary I hope it helps.

[Apollonius]

I think you did well not to attack Catholicism per se. Questioning their religion never works with these people. Since he's one of those types who take their catechism literally, attack him with exactly that. Mention free will and how God expressly wants us to have a choice, and that it would actually be against God's will and a sin in itself, if we were to take away people's liberties; argue that the removal of temptation does not equal pure souls, since those who are easily tempted by our sinful society would then find other ways to sin; remind him that men are already born with sin, so there is no point in removing some of world's sins (it should make no difference to God whether there are 100 or 1000 sins going on). But only use doctrines that were in effect before the II. Vaticanum, since he seems to reject that (but remember to ask him by what right does he question a decision made by the Holy Council and still call himself a Catholic, while he, in fact, is a heretic).
Also, try to convince him that the Republican party only wants to strengthen the Protestants and doesn't give a shit about Catholics. I don't know if it is true, I just made it up actually, but his reaction would be fun to watch.
Trying to talk him out of his pro-life position would be impossible, so don't even go there. The church is very clear on this matter. I'm afraid there's not much that can be done for equal rights for homosexuals either. Just try to get as much as you can, settle for a partial victory. Better to talk him out of even one or two of his silly beliefs, than letting him keep all of them.