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Hey sorry to make another post about my parents. But just this morning when my mother was driving me to school we had a bit of a discussion about abortion. She made these idiotic statements that most abortions are held with in 6 weeks and that the heart beats and that's enough to be concidered alive. I did say that the brain doesn't form until late in the preganacy and during most of the pregnancy the fetus only has somewhat of a loose collection of neurons somewhat like an Earthworm and becuase of that can't feel pain for most of the pregnancy but she said, "We're not talking about Earthworms, you don't get an Earthworm in a pregnancy!" and "But you're pulling out a human being, not a collection of cells!". She also did another tactic of using my own premature birth to try to make her argument hit a chord but it didn't work for me. She said things like, 'Oh if we were like those people we would just left you there and let you die.". She just pulled out every conservative trick in the book, and I tried to explain to her that the organs form very slowly but she refuted that by saying that she saw a book with the pictures of fetal devlopment. I'm betting that she didn't really pay attention to what I said and after she stopped at the school to drop me off she tried to make my stay in the car in order to get me to listen to more of her idiotic BS but I left and said, "Good Bye, Mom have a nice day.".

I just get so damned fustrated at this. I mean yesterday she said, "Wes I'm worried that you're getting a more cemented beliefs with out looking at other views, you need to be more open.". She also told me to look up the communist parties in Russia and China to "Let me see what the left is like". She obviously thinks that I'm a moron. I just think that they are trying to get me thinking like them again. I feel like that they are attacking me all of the time, it seems that ever since I told them about my more liberal beliefs they have always been starting these political discussions whenever I'm at the dinner table or when I'm with them alone. I just don't understand this.

So could anyone give me some help and sources to help me in disscussing with my parents?

You could show her evidence in biology books.

She made these idiotic statements that most abortions are held with in 6 weeks and that the heart beats and that's enough to be considered alive.

Sperm and egg are alive.

We're not talking about Earthworms, you don't get an Earthworm in a pregnancy!

This sounds like a job for... MAD SCIENCE!

But you're pulling out a human being, not a collection of cells!

They are the exact same thing! Don't tell me- she believes in souls which enter the body when the heart beats?

Oh if we were like those people we would just left you there and let you die

Left you there... in the womb? She is implying that using that criteria they wouldn't have had you, right? It is the fallacy of a potential person argument- after all, it is perfectly possible your existence prevents someone else from siting in the seat you have.

She just pulled out every conservative trick in the book, and I tried to explain to her that the organs form very slowly but she refuted that by saying that she saw a book with the pictures of fetal development

All that matters is the brain.

Let me see what the left is like

Which is a bit like looking up the Nazis to see what the right wing is like Or you could look at say... current left wing countries. The true irony of her attacking eugenics as a left wing notion seems to be lost on her though

I feel like that they are attacking me all of the time, it seems that ever since I told them about my more liberal beliefs they have always been starting these political discussions whenever I'm at the dinner table or when I'm with them alone. I just don't understand this.

It is simple. Your existence is a threat to their cushy comfortable beliefs that they are right. After all, they raised you and you believe something different from them. They have two options- you are misguided or they are- why do you think they would choose?

As for advice... well, you can't simply order new parents (stupid TV getting my hopes up ). However, there are some common counter threads- thing those who are against abortion don't think about:

-If it is illegal, should the women go to prison?
-If it is wrong, isn't it hypocritical to be done in cases of rape or incest?
-If humanness is the criteria, does that mean people exposed to hard radiation and mutagens are okay to kill? What about people with significant mutations? What about animals? Is it okay to kill this:
http://www.btcco.net/pb/wp_b4c00dac.html

I dunno.

In your place, I suspect that I'd just smile and count down to the day I move out.

Which is what I did, when I was in a place possibly similar, to yours.

Just stop fucking debating them. You've debated them before to come to the conclusion that they are idiots. That should be enough to convince you to stop. Just politely tell them that you would rather not have a debate. I told my stepfather that, albeit in a more harsh manner, with insults tacked on.

It is hard not trying to convince family or those you work with about your beliefs.
For example, there have been a huge number of discovery channel programs which do a good job refuting the conspiracy aspects of the Kennedy assassination.

Talking to one of my sisters though (She is old enough to actually remember the events), it is impossible to convince her that there was no conspiracy even when I present the various items the shows refutes.

Kitsune wrote:It is hard not trying to convince family or those you work with about your beliefs.
For example, there have been a huge number of discovery channel programs which do a good job refuting the conspiracy aspects of the Kennedy assassination.

Talking to one of my sisters though (She is old enough to actually remember the events), it is impossible to convince her that there was no conspiracy even when I present the various items the shows refutes.

I have a friend whose response to any forensic restaging of the Kennedy assassination, no matter how well controlled, no matter what the tools or results, is well they can make those tests come out any old way they want to. Doesn't mean anything.

Added it to the list of topics to avoid discussing, with her.

Well, this morning just as we stopped in the cul-de-sac around the colledge entrance Mom, asked, "What if yesterday was the last time we saw each other? How would that feel?". She also went along and said that I'm becoming more cloystered not listening to their point of view. She also said that I should look at more independent sources instead of a site that's Pro-Abortion or Anti-Abortion. When I left the car I felt that maybe she was right. But then my logical mind kicked in and said she just might be espousing the "Golden Mean" Fallacy.

So should I take my mother's advice or just ignore it?

I'm pretty sure that if you've been looking on this site, you've been exposed to all of the standard pro-abortion arguments and maybe a few unorthodox, inventive ones too. If you really want to go through the motions of not being biased and look them up for yourself, be my guest, but you're still going to arrive at the same inevitable counterarguments that have been raised here time and time again.

Kanastrous wrote:She also went along and said that I'm becoming more cloystered not listening to their point of view.

Unfortunately, by this she means, "do not accept my beliefs as your own." She just will not admit that's what she means.

You have broken away from her authority. Her safety net is gone, and you are calling her beliefs into question, a very scary thing for many adults.

I can only suggest asking, "Would you value me as a person if I abandoned my own deductions for yours simply because you 'say so'?"

"What if 'all my friends were jumping off a cliff'? Don't you want me to be able to think for myself?"

Or maybe, "Do you not trust that you did your best to raise a thinking, intelligent person?"

I pointed out to my parents that according to Genesis, Abraham (nee Abram) destroyed his fathers' idols and left his fathers' house because he had his own beliefs to define and develop.

And look at how well religious people in general tend to think, of Abraham.

Your mother is a moron. Any site which contains arguments which can be used in favor of legal abortion will be disqualified as an "independent source" in her mind.

Also, your mother is an asshole:

"What if yesterday was the last time we saw each other? How would that feel?".

How indeed. I'd bet my bottom dollar it would hurt them more than it would hurt you. If you do grow apart because of this, the blame lies with the people who kept picking arguments, i.e. them (if what you said in your first post is true).

Stop trying to argue with her. She is never going to take you seriously in a debate because you are her child.

The problem withto suppressing discussions on topics percieved as important with people who are percieved as important can easily lead to passive aggressiveness.

You've got the right to think for yourself, to find your own evidence to support your beliefs. That doesn't necessarily imply shooting down your parent's opinions (in their face), as that might be counterproductive. They might take offense at it (I hope they don't, once you calmly, sensibly and respectfully state you appreciate their efforts, and from there you want to find your own point of view regarding such matters) even if you happen to be right.

According to many people, the line whereupon you can call an embryo (it's already living) a human (equivalent to anyone of us) is still a gray line, so it's not as if either of you were wanting to impose an "absolute truth" on the other.

And/or, perhaps better put:

Khaat wrote:Or maybe, "Do you not trust that you did your best to raise a thinking, intelligent person?"

All in all, I'd advise you not to forget that your mother isn't all over this issue because she just wants to bust your chops, but rather because she wants you to share the point of view that -as far as she knows- is the RIGHT one. One can't blame a mother for that! It's their bloody job-description!

Khaat wrote:I can only suggest asking, "Would you value me as a person if I abandoned my own deductions for yours simply because you 'say so'?"

Unfortunately, the answer is "yes". That's precisely what she wants: a son who unquestioningly accepts her beliefs as his own, with no critical thought whatsoever.

Darth Wong wrote:Unfortunately, the answer is "yes". That's precisely what she wants: a son who unquestioningly accepts her beliefs as his own, with no critical thought whatsoever.

Well, that's the other take. Along those lines, as long as you depend on your parents for room and board, school tuition and what not, then it would perhaps be a good idea to play it cool and pretend to agree. I know, it would really be hard if you hold your own points of view dear, but it beats the alternatives. Make them happy, for now. It's not such a big deal, is it? Part of growing up is learning to conform with the reality around you when you cannot change it. When you become independant, you can freely express your points of view -in a lawful, civilised way, hopefully.

Not being able to at least pretend to share a POV you consider ridiculous, for your own benefit... well, that would be closer to OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), and nobody needs that.